Heroic dungeons dumbed down

[Adlen]

Does going back and soloing Karazan today make your experience back then any less? So, why would a 5% nerf then effect you in a few months later?

And I REALLY don't think the majority of people who haven't killed certain bosses feel its un-fair to them. Most are probably saying "THANK GOD we can finally move on from that cockblock boss!"

because its the differance between nerfing content while it is current and when its over.

Its like why should I have to put in X amount of effort to do something.
But someone else only had to do X-25% to do it.

I can respect people who killa boss on their own skill and initiative.
But if it gets to a point where Blizz is killing the boss for you, then i despise you

[mvaliz]

because its the differance between nerfing content while it is current and when its over.

Its like why should I have to put in X amount of effort to do something.
But someone else only had to do X-25% to do it 8 months later.

Fixed that for ya...

[Hayro1]

This means "Easier than Cata launch dungeons" not "Easier than Cata dungeons while running them in Best in Slot Raid Gear"

They weren't hard even the first 3 weeks to a month in, in Wrath gear. Calm down Sally.

[Adlen]

Fixed that for ya...

in those 8 months is the tier over and a new tier availiable, then im fine with that.

But if the tier is still current, then its difficulty should not be fucked with

[Hexotic]

oh man, i saw this post coming....

Dungeons r too hard and long... KK, well make em short and easy - wrath comes out
These dungeons r too ez, QQ... KK, well make em longer and add some challenges to them - cata comes out
OMG QQ these dungeons are waay too long, I hate them... KK, well make them short again and make them easier - end of cata
QQ these dungeons are too easy and dumbed down...

This is a general breakdown of what I've seen over these past few years. There is no pleasing the wow community...

Hope you dont consider this message a troll, not my intention at all, I just find it dumb that every expansion we get this type of post...

[Goatfish]

and hence the realization that what most people consider an "average" player is actually pretty elite

and most WoW players are alot worse than they realize

I think this might only apply the middle class so to speak. Most Upper tier players, especially if they are involved in the recruiting process, realize that the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.

[mvaliz]

oh man, i saw this post coming....

Dungeons r too hard and long... KK, well make em short and easy - wrath comes out

Honestly I don't remember anybody at all at all asking for this in BC... in fact, Wrath dungeons were kinda on par with BC at launch (hell, I remember when the bronzebeard defense was possible to overwhelm you with adds!). They didn't become EZ until LFD happened and they started gearmatching us. Up till that point people were DREADING the news about LFD as they were picturing nothing but hour+ long wipefests with pugs (which ironically pretty much happened with Cata Launch).

Funny how our memory of history becomes clouded...

[Deleted]

the average wow player is only a step above eating glue and a step below doing basic addition. Right about being able to operate scissors fairly properly is the sweet spot.

I belive this has been the most accurate and constructive post posted today!

[underdogba]

I'd like to point out that there is not one monolithic quality of "difficulty", and that different things can be difficult for different reasons.

Just to deflect ad hominen attacks that are obviously going to come, I personally dinged 85 early on in the 2nd day Cata was out, and was clearing the heroics routinely that very night. So anyone claiming "bad" on this opinion frankly can go troll elsewhere. So here goes.

Cata Heroics had difficulty because the design was stupid.

- healers couldn't use key spells in their toolkit practically at all without being scared of going oom immediately
- secondary stat scaling was so harsh once you dinged 85, that dps players were struggling to even match the dps that they pulled in the 80 endgame
- in almost every single circumstance, the specific boss encounters that were difficult was because they were far too comp sensitive, for example on the second day of launch, try clearing the first boss in heroic stonecore without two ranged dps. (good luck with that!) Try clearing the first boss in SFK at launch without two interrupters or at least a tank that could interrupt (which paladins could not reliably), again good luck with that!

My conclusion from playing the entry-level cata endgame content is simply this --

Difficulty that arises from the game simply not giving you the chance to succeed with good play is not legitimate difficulty. It is the designers being stupid. There is nothing about that to glamorize.

[DarkIron]

I welcome back wrath heroic, the start of cata 5mans were bad. The last thing i wanta do is come home from work and spend 2 hours in a shitty 5man to get BLUE gear. I wanta get on do a few 20min 5mans then raid. There is a reason they are adding Challenge Modes yet you still bother to make these posts.

If you can't earn epics you don't deserve them. Who cares if the items were BLUE, were they an upgrade sure they were, stop jacking off to purple items, they should be epic for a reason. Dont like long dungeons don't play the f'in game, go play lego city mmo or something gay.

Infracted

[Goatfish]

<snip>

This I agree with, especially since it went into their raid design (far more so on 10m than on 25). Practically requiring a certain comp to do certain things is only viable in a situation where you have easy access to all the tools needed to do so. Like Megaman, Ys, and other such console games. Saying you have a choice then not giving you a choice is bad design.

Though on that same note, at least as far as raiding is concerned, going into a fight you know you will need interrupts with 0 or 1 interrupter is not good either.

[DarkIron]

Thanks for agreeing with me. People think of wrath heroics from when we did them in icc gear which made them fast. At the start of wrath is how heroics should be. Not over the top hard and long like cata but smooth, fast and most of all fun with a small chance of wiping. Which most people seem to agree is that 5mans at the start of wrath were fun. It is only a small minority that what them hard.

I don't see what peoples problems are with what this guys called them "wellfare epics". There is heroic raiding gear for those who want to flaunt there gear. I can bet the op is no where gear full bis heroic ds gear. I am and i could not care less what gear a casual player can get. They should be able to get full epics without having to raid. And for as long as there has been hardmode gear it has vastly out geared 5man epics. So even if you get your peak off topping the meters you still can. Now more then ever people don't even notice your heroic or 5man gear since there is transmog.

For the record i have played from vanilla so yes i know all about bc heroics. They were fun, but not so fun for casual players which now make up the bulk of players. Hardcore raiders are now a very small minority of the player base there for they should make more stuff casuals are able to do.

When were cata dungeons hard? And don't even try to say Fail of the lich king dungeons were hard, they were a piss poor excuse for dungeons so all the faggy casuals could feel special.

Cata dungeons were a joke even at launch, learn to play your class you'd be amazed at what your class can do. Too bad people are too stupid to cc and just assumed everything could be aoe'd down like in fail of the lich king.

[Deficineiron]

Late TBC had the benefit of badge gear and nerfed heroics/entrance requirements, nerfed raid attunements, among other things added mid expansion.

this is true, but context is helpful - they had badge gear, but getting the 150 badges for a top 2.4 item was a major task. 7 weekly kara runs, or ~40 heroic dungeons, or ~25 heroic daily dungeons. It is not unreasonable to expect an ACTIVE player to take over a month to get 1 150 badge item. folks who didn't play then should realize that coming into a heroic with an ilvl ~120 or whatever group (115's and some badge gear) was looking at a task of over 1 hour, possibly closer to 2 for most heroics.

by today's standards, late tbc was extraordinarily inaccessible. It makes the launch of cataclysm look like the oft-mentioned hello kitty. To me, the only thing recognizable in todays' game vs. late bc wow is story.lore.art.

[DarkIron]

Thanks for agreeing with me. People think of wrath heroics from when we did them in icc gear which made them fast. At the start of wrath is how heroics should be. Not over the top hard and long like cata but smooth, fast and most of all fun with a small chance of wiping. Which most people seem to agree is that 5mans at the start of wrath were fun. It is only a small minority that what them hard.

I don't see what peoples problems are with what this guys called them "wellfare epics". There is heroic raiding gear for those who want to flaunt there gear. I can bet the op is no where gear full bis heroic ds gear. I am and i could not care less what gear a casual player can get. They should be able to get full epics without having to raid. And for as long as there has been hardmode gear it has vastly out geared 5man epics. So even if you get your peak off topping the meters you still can. Now more then ever people don't even notice your heroic or 5man gear since there is transmog.

For the record i have played from vanilla so yes i know all about bc heroics. They were fun, but not so fun for casual players which now make up the bulk of players. Hardcore raiders are now a very small minority of the player base there for they should make more stuff casuals are able to do.

Where is your proof of this? Just cause the causuals cry the most cause they can't be catered doesn't make them majority. Don't want the game to be hard quit, no one wants scurbs like you playing wow anyway.

Mod Edit: Keep it constructive please.

[Deficineiron]

..and to use your totally amazing sense of logic that doesn't twist or spin ANY factual data into something that it's not... TBC and Vanilla players are LONG gone and haven't played in about 2 years... because Blizz revealed at the ECTS in 2011 that there were more canceled WoW subs than active subs... which translates to over 12 million INACTIVE subs durring Cataclysm. Meaning there were MORE canceled subs now than there were TBC players. So, using your logic, those MUST be the TBC and Vanilla players canceled... and today are JUST Wrath-players - right? :P

no? not sure where you are getting this from. If you are actually claiming I said it, quote me, because I didn't, so YOU are saying it. Your logic is flawed, to say the least.

1) The number doesn't clarify how many are from china. do you understand how easy it is to open a wow account (no box sale), and thus log in with a time card, try and never come back if you don't like it? The barrier to trying/leaving/returning is virtually non-existent, based on everything I have read. They have other mmo's onthe same payment system as wow that have more subs that wow does worldwide, so it isn't a stretch of the imagination to think some of those folks tried wow and decided to give it a pass.

My comment specified western subs. Are you trying to be like Det and include china numbers in topics having nothing to do with china? You might contact him about forming a club or secret society.

2) I fail to see how you arrive at the conclusions wrath players cannot quit and pre-wotlk players must be the only ones quitting.

3) this number may include banned accounts of farmers/gold sellers. Was this clarified at all? gold sellers and presumably many bot farmers just rebuy their needed number of farming accounts as a cost of doing business.

4) Unless you can provide more information about the number you are using, I don't think it adds much to the conversation. There are probably other critical points I am missing with it that need to be clarified as well.

any clarification about your data would be appreciated.

[DarkIron]

Well I guess its a question of when and how much will Blizzard nerf challenege mode

Blizzard will nerf challenge modes the first time a casual scrub sees a trasmog piece of gear he wants but has no hope in hell in achiveing gold. So blizzard will ensure that they can achieve it too

Give it a week

[Deficineiron]

And there... my friend... you are wrong. (and not just about the Obama bit :P)

I've got at least ONE clear-cut piece of evidence that a player can easily show that Cata expansion was the reason for the drops in subs, and not some "sudden onset 7 year burnout" theory that people have.

That evidence is called Cataclysm's release in China.

You see, China did NOT get Cataclysm until Q3 of 2011. They were on Wrath the whole time until 3rd quarter. So, here's a little history lesson...

Cata launches in USA - first quarter numbers drop 500k
2nd quarter - 300k lost...
Cata launches in China - 800k loss in subs - Blizzard flat-out says in their conference call that, this time, the MAJORITY OF THE LOSSES THIS QUARTER WAS FROM CHINA!

What was amazing was Blizz, and indeed most people on the forums, expected a massive SURGE in Q3 numbers due to Cata being released in China... well GUESS what happened INSTEAD! :P

Why is it wherever Cataclysm lands, a massive outbreak of unsubscribing happens? :P

Also.. as you say... Only Blizz has the data... and by judging by the changes in 4.3 and in MoP - I think it's pretty DAMN clear what Blizz believes the loss of subs seem to stem from. :P

nice to find a point of agreement on something. that said, the revenue drop from q2 (non-deferred) does imply a few hundred k of the sub losses were western. This cc was interesting because blizzard actually said over half their subs were in china, though surely this had been the case at end-q2 as wel, and possibly much longer. They didn't say how many more than half, but the casual way the comment was made implies it is more than, say, 1. It could certain be a few hundred k.

at any rate, having china have over 5,150,000 subs at endq32011 does a lot to help define the western plaerbase size.

[Detronic]

Where is your proof of this? Just cause the causuals cry the most cause they can't be catered doesn't make them majority. Don't want the game to be hard quit, no one wants scurbs like you playing wow anyway.

Actually, it's the Hardcore players with bad attitudes that cry the most. Most "casual" players are too busy with LIFE or don't care enough to make noise on forums because of the operating conditions in a video game. They don't care for the most part, and are busy having fun at this very moment.

[Deficineiron]

I'd like to point out that there is not one monolithic quality of "difficulty", and that different things can be difficult for different reasons.

Just to deflect ad hominen attacks that are obviously going to come, I personally dinged 85 early on in the 2nd day Cata was out, and was clearing the heroics routinely that very night. So anyone claiming "bad" on this opinion frankly can go troll elsewhere. So here goes.

Cata Heroics had difficulty because the design was stupid.

- healers couldn't use key spells in their toolkit practically at all without being scared of going oom immediately
- secondary stat scaling was so harsh once you dinged 85, that dps players were struggling to even match the dps that they pulled in the 80 endgame
- in almost every single circumstance, the specific boss encounters that were difficult was because they were far too comp sensitive, for example on the second day of launch, try clearing the first boss in heroic stonecore without two ranged dps. (good luck with that!) Try clearing the first boss in SFK at launch without two interrupters or at least a tank that could interrupt (which paladins could not reliably), again good luck with that!

My conclusion from playing the entry-level cata endgame content is simply this --

Difficulty that arises from the game simply not giving you the chance to succeed with good play is not legitimate difficulty. It is the designers being stupid. There is nothing about that to glamorize.

this poster is the only person on mmo-c who I will actually go back and make sure I have read all of his recent posts back to the last time I did so.

[Aqua]

Does that mean easy dungeons will bring people back?
Because we have herp-derp difficulty in 4.3 and well look at that. Sub numbers didnt change at all.

---------- Post added 2012-06-17 at 11:13 PM ----------


WoW. Then why do i find myself firmly expecting Blizzard to do massive nerfs to Challenege Mode so players can "see the content"

Because they DO see it, In heroics, like they do the raids in LFR. It's the same damn instance just harder. That's the wall of 'shut up noobs' they've constructed and if they can hold to it. I'm okay with it. The gear Challenge modes yeild is also not applicable for 'gear for raiding'. So that argument is fallen flat on it's arse already, but by all means, keep trying to poke holes, I'm also eager to see as to how the vocal majority can screw this up for me.