The Disenchant Button

[rhorle]

No other profession produces their own mats either, something widely overlooked by most enchanters who complain about the current LFD roll system.

Jewelers prospect ore producing their own materials.
Scribes mill producing their own materials
Enchanters disenchant producing their own materials
Tailors sew producing their own materials

Miners provide ore for Jewelers
Herbalists provide herbs for Scribes
Everyone provides weapons and armor for Enchanters
Everyone provides cloth for Tailors.

What is widely overlooked is that you don't need a profession to gather the raw materials for Enchanting and Tailoring. You do however need a profession in order to transform raw materials into something useful for those professions.

[LaceratingSlyer]

Jewelers prospect ore producing their own materials.
Scribes mill producing their own materials
Enchanters disenchant producing their own materials
Tailors sew producing their own materials

Miners provide ore for Jewelers
Herbalists provide herbs for Scribes
Everyone provides weapons and armor for Enchanters
Everyone provides cloth for Tailors.

What is widely overlooked is that you don't need a profession to gather the raw materials for Enchanting and Tailoring. You do however need a profession in order to transform raw materials into something useful for those professions.

Yet all of those that you listed require some other method of obtaining their mats than their profession alone. JC/eng/BS needs miners, scribes/alchs need herbalists and so on. Enchanting is the only profession whose mats and the way to obtain those mats come solely from enchanters. That's the point I'm making and is why Blizzard implemented the D/E button long ago, because enchanters had a strangle hold on the market.

I get what you're saying, but when the majority of necessary current enchant mats come from BoP items that only enchanters can provide materials from there's an issue. You have to seriously consider that while the other profession provide a means for others to obtain their mats, their means are not limited to BoP items that can severely limit the amount of supply available to enchanters to provide mats.

In the end though it's all relative considering enchanting is still one of the top money making professions anyways.

[rhorle]

Yet all of those that you listed require some other method of obtaining their mats than their profession alone.

What does enchanting disenchant? Weapons and Armor What profession is needed to get the things Enchanting Disenchants? None Who can gather the things that Enchanting Disenchants? Anyone.

Only Scribes can obtain ink and the only way to obtain ink is from being a scribe. The point you are making is a flawed one because you are creating special rules that apply just to enchanting yet not the others that function exactly like Enchanting. The DE button was implemented because of the Dungeon Finder tool implemented in patch 3.3 and not because of some stranglehold on the market. Because people did come to enchanters and enchanters did disenchant prior to the DE button. You can not trade in Cross realm groups unless the item is temporary or it was looted from mob. The products of disenchanting fall into none of those categories and thus another way needed to be found to allow them to be "traded" in cross realm groups.

The fact still stands that no other profession is forced to share, and Enchanting is held to a different standard simply due to greed.

[LaceratingSlyer]

What does enchanting disenchant? Weapons and Armor What profession is needed to get the things Enchanting Disenchants? None Who can gather the things that Enchanting Disenchants? Anyone.

Only Scribes can obtain ink and the only way to obtain ink is from being a scribe. The point you are making is a flawed one because you are creating special rules that apply just to enchanting yet not the others that function exactly like Enchanting. The DE button was implemented because of the Dungeon Finder tool implemented in patch 3.3 and not because of some stranglehold on the market. Because people did come to enchanters and enchanters did disenchant prior to the DE button. You can not trade in Cross realm groups unless the item is temporary or it was looted from mob. The products of disenchanting fall into none of those categories and thus another way needed to be found to allow them to be "traded" in cross realm groups.

The fact still stands that no other profession is forced to share, and Enchanting is held to a different standard simply due to greed.

As you said anyone can provide them yes. But again the necessary items for the most current enchants require current items that aren't bop, which there aren't enough of to provide to enchanters to provide a reliable amount of enchanting mats.

You're right in other professions are similar in how they provide mats, but you're obviously overlooking my point of provided materials to produce their mats. There are considerably less BoE items to provide to enchanters than there are any other materials necessary in the game for professions to produce their mats. BoP is what makes the difference here and it's a pretty dramatic difference considering how many BoE epic 359 ilvl and higher items are easily available in the game to disenchant. Enchanting is the only profession effected so drastically by this because of how it works and while yes, enchanters were willing to provide their services to dungeon runners, it's effected the market in a positive way for the entire player base while still allowing enchanters to make considerable profits.

You're very right about why the D/E button was implemented, however that doesn't detract from the fact that enchanters had a hold on the market because of the lack of materials available for them to actually disenchant.

The real question is why is it such a big deal that you share with other players? You still will be able to obtain your own materials through other means and even completely avoid the D/E button if desired by grouping with friends. It hardly effects your possible income, because while it provides your mats to players, you still will be able to obtain your own mats and provide profession only recipes that are only less commonly replaced by players in their gear compared to jewelcrafting. Enchanting is one of the top gold making professions so it can't be that.

[macdisciple]

as an enchanter, i do not care because i don't have to open trade to de the item.

How true. Before, if anyone asked, I denied being one. "Nope not me I have JC and tailoring."

[rhorle]

As you said anyone can provide them yes. But again the necessary items for the most current enchants require current items that aren't bop, which there aren't enough of to provide to enchanters to provide a reliable amount of enchanting mats.

If there is a lack of stuff then how is sharing an enchanters intake between everyone else in the group a good thing? There is no shortage of items for enchanters to get materials from, and there is no shortage of items for others to provide to enchanters. This isn't even a factor in the discussion because the DE roll option doesn't provide an increase in mats to the enchanter. It provides in increase in mats to the non-enchanter which they can in turn sell to the enchanter. Enchanting isn't a special snowflake no matter how much you want to try to make it into one.

If it isn't a big deal for the enchanter to share, then why is it a big deal that the enchanter does share? Enchanters didn't have a hold on the market because smart players still were able to get materials as a non-enchanter. And why shouldn't enchanters have a hold on the market anyways? Scribes have a hold on the Ink market, jewelers on the gem market (to a lesser extent since alchemists can create gems and a small amount of gems can be mined directly).

What is so wrong that a profession has a hold on the market for things obtained only because of skill in that profession? Why do you as a non enchanter want access to materials you can not use? Gold, plain and simple.

[Jalfrezi]

No, I'm sticking to my guns that it's up to the group. It's helping people make an informed decision.

Since you're telling me it has nothing to do with the performance in the dungeon, you should have nothing to worry about.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here... are you saying the group should be allowed to kick you for not sharing your enchanting skills? or what. Don't speak in riddles.

---------- Post added 2012-07-17 at 11:27 AM ----------

All i'm getting from this thread is:

1. Some enchanters say they don't care (these people are most likely not really enchanters)
2. Other enchanters would like some sort of system to enable/disable disenchant in dungeons
3. Nonenchanters has a sense of entitlement to use an enchanters disenchant ability for free

When was the last time you saw a herbalist able to mill herbs to take advantage of inscriptors?
When was the last time you saw a miner prospecting ore to get gems to take advantage of jewelcrafters?

NEVER.

So why should people be able to use our disenchant ability without our say so?

I understand and appreciate all the points being made about "they would usually be DE'd at the end of the dungeon anyway".

Yes usually... but enchanters are still being stripped of their own choice NOT to disenchant for some jerk in the group. Or simply they may not want to!

[moremana]

Bottom line is this and only this.
As a enchanter we have the ability to smash the item and sell it on the ah, with the system the way it is, everyone gets that option, they put it on the ah and are able to sell them cheap, so it undermines our ability to sell at a reasonable rate which is why all enchanting mats are cheap and we cant sell our enchants for a decent price.

People then buy cheap mats and want us to enchant their item for 10G ..... Really!

Its our profession, not yours. When you mine a node , skin something or pick a herb do we get 20% of it, no we dont!

[Th1ghsofSteel]

Bottom line is this and only this.
As a enchanter we have the ability to smash the item and sell it on the ah, with the system the way it is, everyone gets that option, they put it on the ah and are able to sell them cheap, so it undermines our ability to sell at a reasonable rate which is why all enchanting mats are cheap and we cant sell our enchants for a decent price.

People then buy cheap mats and want us to enchant their item for 10G ..... Really!

Its our profession, not yours. When you mine a node , skin something or pick a herb do we get 20% of it, no we dont!

I am a long term enchanter and I have been making and posting between 20-40 scrolls a day for most of the last year or so. I havent done a dungeon for a while now and even when 4.3 came out I wasnt doing that many.
Now a question to all you so called enchanters who are complaining about this button. How do I do this? Answers on a post card please.

It appears that you guys think that the mats you get from d/e-ing are a source of income to you. If you had any business acumen at all you would understand that the major players on your server economies are not only enchanters but part of a crafting army.
What we do is buy up cheap mats on the AH, but also mass craft items for d/e and using the guild perk Bountiful Bags can get virtually unlimited materials at very low prices, we then create and post scrolls on the AH.

I never, repeat never answer trade ads for LF Enchanter and only do in person enchants for friends and guild mates.

As of this morning I have made 5.2 million gold PROFIT from enchanting since the beginning of Cataclysm. You people carry on bickering about a couple of gold here and there and let the big boys run the economy and make unlimited amounts gold.

The stuff you get out of d/e-in in dungeons is peanuts. Now get over it and learn to use your professions like the big players do and you might have more than a few gold to rub together.

[Ryve]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here... are you saying the group should be allowed to kick you for not sharing your enchanting skills? or what. Don't speak in riddles.

The group can kick you for any reason they choose to. There is no mystery to it.

[Th1ghsofSteel]

The DE button is there to try to balance out the unfair advantage that Enchanters have over all other crafting professions. It may not seem "fair" when you look at it, but it's definitely fair in the grand scheme of things. It's there for the sake of balance.

This is nonsense. It was put in when LFD was added. Before that time any enchanter in the groups from your server would do this service for nothing in instances. The vast majority of cases this happened. When LFD was added and it was cross realm then as none conjured items cannot be traded cross realm this feature was added.

Quite frankly I would say for any enchanter who knows his stuff it has made the prof more OP not less.

[Deleted]

I am a long term enchanter and I have been making and posting between 20-40 scrolls a day for most of the last year or so. I havent done a dungeon for a while now and even when 4.3 came out I wasnt doing that many.
Now a question to all you so called enchanters who are complaining about this button. How do I do this? Answers on a post card please.

It appears that you guys think that the mats you get from d/e-ing are a source of income to you. If you had any business acumen at all you would understand that the major players on your server economies are not only enchanters but part of a crafting army.
What we do is buy up cheap mats on the AH, but also mass craft items for d/e and using the guild perk Bountiful Bags can get virtually unlimited materials at very low prices, we then create and post scrolls on the AH.

I never, repeat never answer trade ads for LF Enchanter and only do in person enchants for friends and guild mates.

As of this morning I have made 5.2 million gold PROFIT from enchanting since the beginning of Cataclysm. You people carry on bickering about a couple of gold here and there and let the big boys run the economy and make unlimited amounts gold.

The stuff you get out of d/e-in in dungeons is peanuts. Now get over it and learn to use your professions like the big players do and you might have more than a few gold to rub together.

I was just about to ask a question how is possible that they are poor with enchanting and need to complain about DE button and then you post. Good one.

[Ryve]

I was just about to ask a question how is possible that they are poor with enchanting and need to complain about DE button and then you post. Good one.

Because they're both terrible people and terrible economists. A terrible combination.

[Unknown User]

I am a long term enchanter and I have been making and posting between 20-40 scrolls a day for most of the last year or so. I havent done a dungeon for a while now and even when 4.3 came out I wasnt doing that many.
Now a question to all you so called enchanters who are complaining about this button. How do I do this? Answers on a post card please.

It appears that you guys think that the mats you get from d/e-ing are a source of income to you. If you had any business acumen at all you would understand that the major players on your server economies are not only enchanters but part of a crafting army.
What we do is buy up cheap mats on the AH, but also mass craft items for d/e and using the guild perk Bountiful Bags can get virtually unlimited materials at very low prices, we then create and post scrolls on the AH.

I never, repeat never answer trade ads for LF Enchanter and only do in person enchants for friends and guild mates.

As of this morning I have made 5.2 million gold PROFIT from enchanting since the beginning of Cataclysm. You people carry on bickering about a couple of gold here and there and let the big boys run the economy and make unlimited amounts gold.

The stuff you get out of d/e-in in dungeons is peanuts. Now get over it and learn to use your professions like the big players do and you might have more than a few gold to rub together.

For me it's not about the value of the DE'ed mats. I am perfectly capable of making a profit without getting them.
It's about me wanting back the option to refuse to disenchant an item for that person in the group who's been acting like a complete asshole during the whole instance run.
I'm not saying the entire DE system should be removed. But some kind of "advanced" mode should be added (but it should default to the standard mode which is the same as we have now) where you'd get a window with "RetardedPlayer wants to disenchant [item]. Allow/Deny?".

[Th1ghsofSteel]

For me it's not about the value of the DE'ed mats. I am perfectly capable of making a profit without getting them.
It's about me wanting back the option to refuse to disenchant an item for that person in the group who's been acting like a complete asshole during the whole instance run.
I'm not saying the entire DE system should be removed. But some kind of "advanced" mode should be added (but it should default to the standard mode which is the same as we have now) where you'd get a window with "RetardedPlayer wants to disenchant [item]. Allow/Deny?".

Sorry, but you still come across as worrying about a few stray gold pieces. I couldnt care less about idiots in dungeons runs, if you arent happy kick them.

To any decent business person the whole dungeon run d/e mats thing is irrelevant. We have much bigger fish to fry.

[FalinMor]

This is nonsense. It was put in when LFD was added. Before that time any enchanter in the groups from your server would do this service for nothing in instances. The vast majority of cases this happened. When LFD was added and it was cross realm then as none conjured items cannot be traded cross realm this feature was added.

Quite frankly I would say for any enchanter who knows his stuff it has made the prof more OP not less.

Your response doesn't make any sense, and has nothing to do with my post.

The fact of the matter is, Enchanting had a serious advantage over all the other crafting professions, giving Enchanters a total monopoly on the materials needed for enchants without requiring them to take a gathering profession. There was no other crafting profession that allowed a monopoly on materials held by the crafter. The disenchant button simply broke the monopoly, and brought it in line with the other crafting professions. It's as simple as that.

[rhorle]

Sorry, but you still come across as worrying about a few stray gold pieces. I couldnt care less about idiots in dungeons runs, if you arent happy kick them.

To any decent business person the whole dungeon run d/e mats thing is irrelevant. We have much bigger fish to fry.

Worrying about a few stray gold pieces. If that is all that de'd mats are then why do they need to be shared in the first place? Most objections have nothing to do about gold, but have everything to do about equality or in the absence of equality a professional bonus/compensation.

Anyone can make money selling scrolls because you just need an alt that can make the scroll or a crafter mule that does them for you. I've done a few jobs like that back in WotLK where I created about 50 items for someone and they paid me more then the usual tip plus provided all the mats. Was win win.

---------- Post added 2012-07-17 at 08:43 PM ----------

The fact of the matter is, Enchanting had a serious advantage over all the other crafting professions, giving Enchanters a total monopoly on the materials needed for enchants without requiring them to take a gathering profession. There was no other crafting profession that allowed a monopoly on materials held by the crafter. The disenchant button simply broke the monopoly, and brought it in line with the other crafting professions. It's as simple as that.

You clearly didn't know the Glyph market in WotLK then. As they were often high profit with the Scribe controlling the market in glyphs and materials because only they could produce inks. Any one that can kill can gather for Enchanting, just as they can for Tailoring. And Tailoring has a perk that gives tailors a bonus cloth roll on humanoids.

[zenzaliv]

You clearly didn't know the Glyph market in WotLK then. As they were often high profit with the Scribe controlling the market in glyphs and materials because only they could produce inks.

Comparing Glyphs to enchants it pointless. I haven't bought a glyph for my 3 raiding toons since they hit level 80 and were doing Naxx. Whereas every. single. time. I get a new piece of gear I enchant them. Just my Warrior tank in Cata i've bought Windwalk 5 or 6 times. And I usually buy the scrolls instead of looking for an enchanter, I had no idea how much markup they put on them, but i'm sure they made out like a bandit.

[rhorle]

Comparing Glyphs to enchants it pointless.

So a profession that obtains materials useful only to that profession from items gathered by someone else and one that has had a very profitable monopoly over crafted and materials related to that profession can't be compared to a profession being stated as the same thing? This Blind eye to everything to everything but enchanting is getting old. Heck scribes creating mysterious fortune cards can make a far greater profit then any enchanter can.

It just seems people have it out for enchanting no matter how illogical their reasons are.

[Slavemaker]

I keep seeing this come up with enchanters. I mean yeah its selfish but no other profession is forced to share. So I guess a option to opt out of enchanting for the group isn't to much to ask for.

Unlearn Enchanting, problem solved.

The reason it is "forced" to share, is because Enchanting is something that every single person needs and materials are ONLY obtained through enchanters, people are even insulted constantly if they do not have enchants, kicked from groups for it and just plain made fun of, so it being "forced" to be "shared" is a good thing, there is no argument to defend the enchanter in this case, it's selfish that they don't want to disenchant for people because it is almost always a result of them getting less money from it, materials themselves? They can farm that, other people cannot unless they are an enchanter.