1. #1821
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    I have a question. Does anybody know of a linkens/meka build for Skeleton King. I saw one do it last night and it seemed so obscure that it could be a proper build but I didn't see the point in it.
    I've never seen those items on Leoric. Usually you want a fast armlet into... whatever. Heaven's Halberd can be really fun on him, but a quick armlet's the only constant I think. Then again, I've never seen him in a pro game, so :-/
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  2. #1822
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    I have a question. Does anybody know of a linkens/meka build for Skeleton King. I saw one do it last night and it seemed so obscure that it could be a proper build but I didn't see the point in it.
    Both items are great survival-items. They give close to no additional damage-output though, so I can't see this build work out in most cases. If you had someone that could really deal damage, I guess it'd be cool to have a reliable tank with a stun.

    Building one of those, sure. Building both? Probably not sure of what he's doing.

  3. #1823
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Some observations:

    - Matchmaking is really weird. It seems like any time I break 50% winrate, I get nothing but idiots on my team and competent players on the other team, regardless of time of day.
    Yep.

    - Omniknight is definitely much better when played as a 3 or so. He can lane competently, though he's bad for mid because he lacks any sort of rune control. Stout Shield makes a huge difference with him. Repel makes you mostly immune to spell harass and a shield makes you very resistant to autoattack harass, which lets you lane much more efficiently. Been doing a lot of Soul Ring -> Boots -> Phase Boots -> Drums lately and it's pretty sick. Phase Boots make you very effective at chasing and killing with early Degen Aura levels (I take it from 7-10 now) and Soul Ring mostly eliminates mana concerns. Usually trade the shield in for a Mek when I can, and maybe pickup a Staff of Wizardry for Eul's/Force Staff to completely eliminate mana issues. I get yelled at a lot for not having arcane boots, though.
    Yep.

    - Furion is fucking stupid.
    Yep.
    It's fucking goddamn retarded. He's a hero with zero weak spots in his kit...Do the developers just not give a shit about the state of the game?
    He's pretty weak and very easy to gank. Most carries will give him a proper beatdown and he's fairly hard countered by AM. Teleport is definitely a tad strong and needs another 5-10 seconds on the cooldown, in my opinion, but he's not really OP. He really does die the instant someone breathes on him, and his split pushing won't really change a game if his team is doing poorly - sure, he can backdoor with teleport and be very annoying, but Clinkz can do it twice as well.

    Also, you get rid of 1/4 of his abilities with a 90g set of tangos. Teleport doesn't actually give any any power in a skirmish, and treants don't really do damage to heroes. Used well they can be an extremely annoying block, but that's pretty hard to set up. Furion's only real team fight asset other than farming up sheeper is dropping nature's wrath on you right as you get engaged by someone else - the every popular double global furion + zeus/AA can be pretty damn annoying to play against. If Furion's team doesn't get an early lead it's pretty common to see him die off as a threat mid game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-07-28 at 10:44 PM.

  4. #1824
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    He's pretty weak and very easy to gank. Most carries will give him a proper beatdown and he's fairly hard countered by AM. Teleport is definitely a tad strong and needs another 5-10 seconds on the cooldown, in my opinion, but he's not really OP. He really does die the instant someone breathes on him, and his split pushing won't really change a game if his team is doing poorly - sure, he can backdoor with teleport and be very annoying, but Clinkz can do it twice as well.
    I read a suggestion on the playdota forum regarding his teleport, which I found pretty interesting. The change was to start the cool down on cast, and not on completion.

    Maybe that's a tad excessive, but I can't help but agree with it once I fight a competent Furion that just always seems to get away.

  5. #1825
    Yeah that sounds pretty excessive =p
    The cooldown used to be 30 sec at level 4, they buffed it and now he's ridiculous. By the time he's killed someone he's running into the trees to teleport away, you just don't really have time to chase him. Even 5 seconds would make a huge difference without making the skill any less bad.

  6. #1826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yep.


    Yep.


    Yep.

    He's pretty weak and very easy to gank. Most carries will give him a proper beatdown and he's fairly hard countered by AM. Teleport is definitely a tad strong and needs another 5-10 seconds on the cooldown, in my opinion, but he's not really OP. He really does die the instant someone breathes on him, and his split pushing won't really change a game if his team is doing poorly - sure, he can backdoor with teleport and be very annoying, but Clinkz can do it twice as well.

    Also, you get rid of 1/4 of his abilities with a 90g set of tangos. Teleport doesn't actually give any any power in a skirmish, and treants don't really do damage to heroes. Used well they can be an extremely annoying block, but that's pretty hard to set up. Furion's only real team fight asset other than farming up sheeper is dropping nature's wrath on you right as you get engaged by someone else - the every popular double global furion + zeus/AA can be pretty damn annoying to play against. If Furion's team doesn't get an early lead it's pretty common to see him die off as a threat mid game.
    BH, Riki, AM, Phantom Lancer, etc, all eat Furion's face. If he doesn't see you coming and you can burst him/silence him/mini stun his tp, he's fucked. He's really squishy. And, he does almost nothing in team fights after sprout. Even then, Quelling blade and tangos make the skill useless.

    Though, I would argue it does in fact need 5-10 more seconds as a careful, intelligent Furion is hell to gank, but meh. He needs the farm to even do anything, preventing carries from getting farm on your team.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-28 at 06:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Azalu View Post
    I have a question. Does anybody know of a linkens/meka build for Skeleton King. I saw one do it last night and it seemed so obscure that it could be a proper build but I didn't see the point in it.
    Nah. He's really a strength tank/carry. Just get armlet and then the 2nd item depends. If you have heavier carries and they are more farmed, I usually just get an AC. If the other team is bunching up a bunch I'll grab Bfury, etc. Leave the mekansm to the support heroes. You got crit and 30% lifesteal as Skelly king. :P

  7. #1827
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    FLUFFNSTUFF from Complexity Gaming has yet another blog up, this one touching on respect (or rather lack thereof) found in the DotA community. I found it rather accurate and would absolutely recommend everyone to read it.

  8. #1828
    Leoric....HH/heart/armlet/skadi/STRtreads/SY. Doesn't get more hybrid carry as f*** with a hero who can have 5000 health, crazy speed, and 1200 crits with a built in lifesteal and aegis. Unfortunately he suffers from strength carry syndrome and takes bloody forever to start getting strong.

  9. #1829
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's fucking goddamn retarded.
    Great argument yet again.

    I can't even bothered to make a real post again so I'll just point out that

    > Furion has a lot of weaknesses, his CC is very weak early on, he doesn't carry well, is easy to gank and even his ulti is fairly unreliable (like rest of his teamfight abilities without proper items)
    > No good Furion uses ulti to farm
    > Just my personal opinion, but Midas is awful. And 100% of players who have no clue on how to play Furion go for Midas.

    He is picked because he is good at pushing and flexible, but I don't see him insanely overpowered. If you get owned by a non-contributing, jungle-farming Furion you had probably lost the game before he even entered the play.

  10. #1830
    Crushed another game with lothar's, this time as Sven. Honestly a game we should never have won but they didn't team push or put up any real map pressure. Still, defining moment was me running into a fight with ult and lothar's up, hitting slardar (who was debuffed by my syllabear's AC/stygian and so had zero or lower armor) for about 2400 damage and one shotting their 14-0-15 beyond godlike 20 minutes in QoP who was standing next to him.

    People really need to learn how to do something other than solo long + jungle. Me and SD were level 8 when their potm was level 5. She only died once thanks to leap, but a simple SC+SB sends her to fountain the second she steps foot in the lane. Luckily storm bolt chases blinkers.

    I just don't know how many more games it's going to take to prove it to people. Lothar's is such a ridiculously strong item for how easy it is to make. I really can't say I've ever had a bad game buying it on any hero, enemy true sight or not. People can say I'm just playing pubs, but, yes, that's all I play, so it doesn't really take away from my point. Pros can avoid Lothar's all they want, the other ten million of us don't have to.

    And might I add, had I gone generic blink sven we would have lost in 20 minutes.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-07-29 at 08:01 AM.

  11. #1831
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    Didn't know the item yet, thanks for the write-up.
    Can imagine it's really strong, considering how strong invisibility is (when people don't expect it). Every time I get an invisibility rune as mid it's bound to be a kill (early/mid game).

    I can imagine it loses some of it's strength when you're mostly having teamfights though, as being invisible doesn't help as much against 5 people.

    Just some musings from a new player though, so I might be completely wrong.

  12. #1832
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    Didn't know the item yet, thanks for the write-up.
    Can imagine it's really strong, considering how strong invisibility is (when people don't expect it). Every time I get an invisibility rune as mid it's bound to be a kill (early/mid game).

    I can imagine it loses some of it's strength when you're mostly having teamfights though, as being invisible doesn't help as much against 5 people.

    Just some musings from a new player though, so I might be completely wrong.
    It helps in some situations. For example shadow fiend. It's ulti crushes entire enemy team if poped in a proper position. But risk is that if enemy gets true sight the item will be a total waste of money. On the other hand Blink is more guarantee item than shadowblade for initiation situations in my opinion. If you position yourself properly, enemy team won't see you coming and it will always work.

  13. #1833
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    Yeah, I can see how that would work. However, gem of true sight drops after a kill, so it makes them 'waste' 700 gold too (while you still get stats from the item, it doesn't only give you invisibility), and you have the chance to waste even more of their gold if you kill the guy with the gem and manage to pick it up.

    That said, I haven't really used any of those items yet, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

  14. #1834
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Great argument yet again.

    I can't even bothered to make a real post again so I'll just point out that

    > Furion has a lot of weaknesses, his CC is very weak early on, he doesn't carry well, is easy to gank and even his ulti is fairly unreliable (like rest of his teamfight abilities without proper items)
    > No good Furion uses ulti to farm
    > Just my personal opinion, but Midas is awful. And 100% of players who have no clue on how to play Furion go for Midas.

    He is picked because he is good at pushing and flexible, but I don't see him insanely overpowered. If you get owned by a non-contributing, jungle-farming Furion you had probably lost the game before he even entered the play.
    Midas is awful, yet you see it on every single Furion in every single pro game, regardless of team, from M5 all the way up to Na'Vi. Maybe they know something you don't.

    Pretty much any jungler is easy to gank in the early game, and it's kind of the point. If you don't gank them, you're dumb. Yes, Furion is squishy as hell. Yes, he lacks a lot of utility in teamfights.

    But it doesn't matter. He can be anywhere on the map at any time, and doesn't require vision to teleport there. Trees aren't a threat to players, but they push the hell out of creeps and he can use his ulti to wipe out your own creep waves when he's on the other side of the the map. Unlike Tinker, Furion can push a lane simply by summoning trees and then going wherever, just like Lycan can.

    Once he gets sheepstick, Furion has some relevance in a teamfight, and because he pushes so effectively, he can get a sheepstick relatively quickly. A Medallion of Courage is also a common item for him that gives him some relevance in a teamfight and improves his farm. Desolator is a good item on him that improves his push, farm, and adds a little to teamfights, though it's usually something you won't see until late game on a competent Furion. I've seen Furion make good use of Maelstrom/Mjollnir as well.

    Sprout is an odd CC that can be useful, especially in the late game. In the late game, you aren't carrying tangos or a quelling blade and chances are... all six inventory slots are filled, anyway. Sure, you can grab some tangos, but now you don't have the dust you need to kill Clinkz, or you don't have wards with you to replace the ones they just killed. Or you don't have a TP scroll to port home with.

    And while Clinkz can BD very effectively, Furion can do it earlier and does it to towers effortlessly. He can easily port in, summon trees, and attack the tower. He won't kill it, most likely, but he'll do some noticeable damage to it since it can take a tower a little while to kill five trees, and by time the trees are dead, he can leave at any time. More to the point, if he can force a TP and he doesn't die (and an intelligent Furion won't), he just made your team waste 135 gold to kill a couple of treants.
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  15. #1835
    Pros get midas because furion needs the out farm oponent by a shit-ton in early-mid game otherwise he will be useless in terms of damage or cc. Sure he can tp and sprout but that's it.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-07-29 at 01:19 PM.

  16. #1836
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    snip
    So, what part of that exactly is overpowered?

    2 Months ago, only pro that used to go Hand of Midas regularly was LighTofHeaveN, and while not everyone still makes one I'd say he has been mimiced quite a bit considering at that point he would play Furion of Windrunner in almost all games and was fairly famous for them. (Calling great Shackle Shots LighTofHeaveNs is still a common practice.) I said it's just an opinion, and a fairly biased one, but I'd still say it's an awful item. Sure, they're pros and usually know what they're doing, (and often Midas is built because the enemy has Chen or Enchantress) but still sometimes you see a game end while the losing team Furion has Midas and little else. And 100% of players who are clueless about how to play Furion or this game (like ones suggesting you farm with your ultimate) go for Midas regardless of the game.

    Ganking junglers is nice, but if it's not a real carry it's far from being a top priority. If there's a Lycan in the jungle, yeah, you might want to put some pressure on him, but in case of Enigma or Furion (somewhat irrelevant since Furion is rarely jungling early in progames) it's not wrong to ignore them if you've better things to do. You mistake "easy to gank" to mean only early game, and while vision indeed isn't needed to TP, it's not a bad thing for keeping you alive. I've said before in this thread that playing versus Furion means you need to push your lanes out before you intend to play 5-man Dota on the enemy minimap far from your base. If Furion doesn't see your team he is risking getting ganked every time he goes out to push, and if you have even one strong hero ready to jump him he will probably die.

    You're only parroting me in saying Sprout is useful lategame, although what you don't consider is that lategame enemy probably has at least one Force Staff which can make Sprout redundant. In saying "he gains teamfight relevance with Scythe of Vyse" you managed to describe every hero in the game to an extent.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-07-29 at 02:13 PM.

  17. #1837
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    Didn't know the item yet, thanks for the write-up.
    Can imagine it's really strong, considering how strong invisibility is (when people don't expect it). Every time I get an invisibility rune as mid it's bound to be a kill (early/mid game).
    Haste runs are way worse. I cannot begin to stress how rage inducing a haste rune in is the first 4/5 minutes of the game. It's pretty much a guaranteed double kill on a side lane if mid gets a haste rune and you don't have wards up to see it.

    As to backdooring, Furion might be able to do it earlier, but he's nowhere near Clinkz's level. When you chase furion out and make him TP you know he won't be back for 20 seconds. You might even get a kill because he's not invisible or fast. Clinkz can run into your tower, force two TPs, then just run out and go to a different lane to backdoor. You can't keep up with him because he's running around at 522 movespeed. I've won plenty of games as clinkz by backdooring rax intsead of team fighting, it pisses people off pretty hard, and I haven't seen a furion do it quite the same way.

    @Hermanni
    Saying he games late game relevance because of Guinsoo's isn't really the same thing. Lion and Lina already have a stun and great nuke power. Furion has nothing of use in team fights except some minor AoE damage from his ult. I don't consider Midas too bad of an item on him in most games. It pays for itself in ten minutes and after is free gold, if he gets it in the first 5 or 6 minutes it is easily worth it. That's pretty much how it is on most heroes, though. The strength of Midas as an item depends on how early you buy it, not that surprisingly.

  18. #1838
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    (somewhat irrelevant since Furion is rarely jungling early in progames)
    Well, most of the time I see someone let a team get Furion, they also got someone else that can jungle, so Furion lanes instead.

    Re: Clinkz. Clinkz only gets strong enough to backdoor towers in the late game. His real utility is the huge DPS he can achieve in the midgame with Strafe+Searing Arrows and is, IMO, probably the only real reason to take him over a lot of other ranged hard carries. He can be slippery, but since most people won't build him with survivability, he's also really squishy... dust him, disable him, and it's an easy kill, and even with 522 movespeed he can't cross the map as easily as Furion can.

    Furion's also very squishy and subject to getting splattered all over the lane, but that's the only reason I can think of him not being taken out of captains mode (Lycan's in the same boat, I guess, since he's seen in almost every game as well.) But when the Furion is played well, he's useful and powerful throughout the entire game. In the early game he can teleport to a tower to defend it from a push or to assist his team with a push, and then teleport back to wherever he was before when it's done. In the midgame, Sprout is useful as hell (force enemies to sacrifice item slots for tangos/blades or get stuck in a sprout, and other items usually have priority over Force Staff) and his ulti can cause some pretty significant damage to heroes - it's not unusual to see his ulti hit the other team's supports for 30%-50% of their HP and it's also having the side effect of pushing out the lanes, requiring heroes to port to defend towers. By late game, he's gotten plenty of farm and can afford to buyback at whim and can afford items to make him useful in late-game teamfights (sheepstick being the most obvious choice.)

    He's overpowered because of the obscene map presence Teleport gives him, from very early in the game. As with virtually everything in MOBA games, the nerfs don't have to be huge. Like others said, simply increasing the cooldown by 5 seconds could be enough. He just needs a little extra time between Teleports to give the enemy team a chance to respond and setup a gank on him.
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    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
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  19. #1839
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    @Hermanni
    Saying he games late game relevance because of Guinsoo's isn't really the same thing. Lion and Lina already have a stun and great nuke power. Furion has nothing of use in team fights except some minor AoE damage from his ult.
    Essentially, yes. Without items Furion has little to give so he is often better off pushing and hoping his ulti does enough damage/has enough bounces than being cannon fodder in a teamfight, but your lanes are far out and he doesn't have time to do anything and suddenly Furion seems much less powerful.

    I don't consider Midas too bad of an item on him in most games. It pays for itself in ten minutes and after is free gold, if he gets it in the first 5 or 6 minutes it is easily worth it. That's pretty much how it is on most heroes, though. The strength of Midas as an item depends on how early you buy it, not that surprisingly.
    Yes, fast Midas is best midas, so getting FB, courier snipes or early towers can make Midas an alright choice. Also an alright recovery item for a suicide laning Furion. I don't play (=random) Furion often but when I do I much rather spend my first 1900 gold on Medallion and Urn and fuck shit up instead of ricing next 10 minutes and end up with a Scythe around the same time I would have had one with Midas and around the same level.

  20. #1840
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Well, most of the time I see someone let a team get Furion, they also got someone else that can jungle, so Furion lanes instead.

    Re: Clinkz. Clinkz only gets strong enough to backdoor towers in the late game. His real utility is the huge DPS he can achieve in the midgame with Strafe+Searing Arrows and is, IMO, probably the only real reason to take him over a lot of other ranged hard carries. He can be slippery, but since most people won't build him with survivability, he's also really squishy... dust him, disable him, and it's an easy kill, and even with 522 movespeed he can't cross the map as easily as Furion can.

    Furion's also very squishy and subject to getting splattered all over the lane, but that's the only reason I can think of him not being taken out of captains mode (Lycan's in the same boat, I guess, since he's seen in almost every game as well.) But when the Furion is played well, he's useful and powerful throughout the entire game. In the early game he can teleport to a tower to defend it from a push or to assist his team with a push, and then teleport back to wherever he was before when it's done. In the midgame, Sprout is useful as hell (force enemies to sacrifice item slots for tangos/blades or get stuck in a sprout, and other items usually have priority over Force Staff) and his ulti can cause some pretty significant damage to heroes - it's not unusual to see his ulti hit the other team's supports for 30%-50% of their HP and it's also having the side effect of pushing out the lanes, requiring heroes to port to defend towers. By late game, he's gotten plenty of farm and can afford to buyback at whim and can afford items to make him useful in late-game teamfights (sheepstick being the most obvious choice.)

    He's overpowered because of the obscene map presence Teleport gives him, from very early in the game. As with virtually everything in MOBA games, the nerfs don't have to be huge. Like others said, simply increasing the cooldown by 5 seconds could be enough. He just needs a little extra time between Teleports to give the enemy team a chance to respond and setup a gank on him.
    Clinkz really isn't that squishy when talking about agility carries. Agi as a main stat gives a good armor amount and his ult gives him quite the chunk of max HP if you eat the right creeps. Also, once he hits about 8-9 his burst in the mid-game is ridiculous. Also, Tinker with TP boots has more map presence than he does, IMO. And he really can just March of the Machines 1-2 times and TP away. Granted, he can't do that for a while, but "early" in the game, TP has a HUGE cooldown. And if you spend so many levels on it, your treants suck/no levels in sprout.

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