[Death Knights] Have 90% NO Choices In MoP

[DarkT]

Death Grip tier would be awesome and very original instead of Rune Regen tier. Its like a mark to our class. Something like reverse grip, CD reduce or stun after you cast it etc etc..

[Deleted]

Glyph of Outbreak - This will be mandatory, having an instant way to keep 100% up time on diseases will be a no brainier.

Glyph of AMS - Automatic win for both tanks and dps. Why would we not want to choose this?

Nice retardation there.
Funny how you can disregard everything else based on what your ending says.

[Alvito]

You do know that undead players are still under humanoid classification...?

Its only been that way for around 6 years and way before DKs were playable. Maybe he just needs some more time to figure these things out. Stay tuned for a QQ about plains striding and Tauren having mount limitations!

[Deleted]

I still don't get how this is worse that it currently is, the talent-trees have been increasingly been made so you only had the illusion of choice.

The MoP talents are better than the Cata (4.x) ones since you actually get to make choices - as it is now you make no choices you just cherry pick for a little more DPS for most specs.

Actually, I'd even be cool if we were stuck with only one spec. As long as they give us the tools we need to make it roll just right.

Did you play blood on beta ? It feels unfinished.

[Deleted]

Nope I'm not in the beta, and I'm not commenting on the overall state of the DK, just the patch 4 vs 5 thing.

Ok. Personnally, I don't really care about the new model of talents. I liked TBC, Wotlk and Cata equally talent-wise.

I just wish they gave us opportunities to have the right talents, the right mechanics.

To be honest, I even wish they wouldn't force me to pick one rune regen talent over another.

[thelordymir]

Look I haven't read it all in detail, but I just want to remind everyone that Death Knights typically suck hardest at the start of the expansion, then end up running away with power at the end. In Wrath we were ridiculously overpowered in beta and nerfed pretty much every patch until we finally leveled out, then we came back strong in ICC fights, particular since Wrath raids were all about stamina-stacking and DK's high health and multiple cooldowns and Vamp Blood did well..

Except this isnt the case at all. In WoTLK we were super OP at the start, nerfed down at the end. Come Cata we were pretty OP in PvE then OP in PvP and then nerfed down completely in both to where we are the easiest targets to center on in pvp. Different for tanks i'm sure, but for pve dps and pvp it's always been OP >> Nerfed

[Unholyground]

Ok. Personnally, I don't really care about the new model of talents. I liked TBC, Wotlk and Cata equally talent-wise.

I just wish they gave us opportunities to have the right talents, the right mechanics.

To be honest, I even wish they wouldn't force me to pick one rune regen talent over another.

I miss being able to go Hybrid, it was a fun time.

[Deleted]

How can you like them equally?

there is a HUGE difference between TBC/WotLK and cata

in TBC/WotLK you could spend all your points as you wished making strange hybrid specs if you wanted to, basically you had full freedom and could do whatever you wanted.

In cata you got locked into a role and forced to spend at least 31 points in your main tree the rest of your points could only be used for a little flavour

In MoP it might appear that you have less choice than in cata but you actually have more because you can pick and chose some key abilities which you couldn't in cata.

How can I ? Because it is my right to not care so much about it .

I was a user of hybrid specs, and it was always fun to build silly things that would entertain me for hours. But to be honest, in the end the only thing that mattered to me was to be competitive with other classes. As long as I get the utility, power and fun I can get elsewhere, I don't feel the need to move onto another character. If I just can't experience the same fun and not be as competitive, then I don't like the class in question and I don't know why I should bother stuggling with it anyway.

That's what I meant and that's what happened to blood.

[Deleted]

I'd have this to say about the glyphs for pvp

Glyphs of Icy Touch and anti-magic shell are mandatory, but I'd say there's a bit of a choice for the third glyph.
In my opinion you have a choice between glyphs of icebound fortitude, dark succor and death and decay.

Icebound fortitude because in PvP icebound fortitude is only used for stun break and preventing them.
Dark succor for BGs. I'd say it's always better to get some health back in a tough situation.
Death and decay because getting death's advance will force you not to get the chillbains. So if it stacks with CoI it would be rather usefull.

Minor glyphs as usual are just for the looks and for fun but in this case they are mostly boring. Even a glyph that would make your path of frost a path of flowers or grass would be more fun than the ones we have. But I like that blizzard at least now gives us a chance of PvE death grip interrupt with tranquil grip glyph. But in my opinion this shouldn't even be a glyph just two separate abilities with a shared cooldown, maybe? Maybe no, but still imo. And bringing Corpse explosion back as a glyph isn't that fun either. I did not like it in the first place and not going to take it now. No offence I know some people like it, but now it's only for the show, right? So also there is the horn of winter glyph. Why wouldn't they give us something that looks just amazing. Something like using horn of winter outside of combat would make a shadowmourne effect, not a big deal but still better than some puny snowflakes. They will be overdone in a couple of months, sadly.

[Anjerith]

I suggest this is taken to the official forums. Talking about it here is essentially whining about it - it does no good. Discussion on the official forum - even if it is mostly crap - is 100x more effective because Blizzard is at least seeing it.

[Ichy]

How can you like them equally?

there is a HUGE difference between TBC/WotLK and cata

in TBC/WotLK you could spend all your points as you wished making strange hybrid specs if you wanted to, basically you had full freedom and could do whatever you wanted.

In cata you got locked into a role and forced to spend at least 31 points in your main tree the rest of your points could only be used for a little flavour

In MoP it might appear that you have less choice than in cata but you actually have more because you can pick and chose some key abilities which you couldn't in cata.

I loved the TBC/Wrath Talent point options. Loved having my Frost/Fire mage or that DW Unholy tank DK ( only 2 class's I played at the time).

Now I understand that the OP thinks there isn't much choice, and that we are required to take 90% of our talent choices. However, that is because of how he plays and thinks that the other talents won't be chosen- and they might not, at least by the op any way.

I don't see it this way though. We will have more choice than we do currently, and each talent option is a choice depending on our play style. I hated playing frost in wrath and most cata because I lost the access to alot of the utilities Unholy had- in MoP I can will access have a good portion of the utilities of unholy. Such as AMZ and Deaths advance. Or if I feel that my self sustainability is problematic I can choose some healing talents with out feeling like I have to be in tank spec to survive.

[Darsithis]

I don't see it this way though. We will have more choice than we do currently, and each talent option is a choice depending on our play style. I hated playing frost in wrath and most cata because I lost the access to alot of the utilities Unholy had- in MoP I can will access have a good portion of the utilities of unholy. Such as AMZ and Deaths advance. Or if I feel that my self sustainability is problematic I can choose some healing talents with out feeling like I have to be in tank spec to survive.

This sums up exactly how I feel about the OP's post. The flexibility is far ahead of what we have at the moment, which is a cookie-cutter spec with maybe 1 or two talents you can place anywhere.

The only current spec on live that is even remotely adjustable is Blood. We can take talents for more DPS output (had to on Alsysrazor pre-nerf) or keep everything as specified on EJ.

[LCDArcade]

Having the illusion of choice isn't really a choice is it? If you really look at the talents, they are all based on what spec you are in. I mean you're not going to pick RC or RE over blood tap as a tank are you?

I posted this same thread over on the beta forums too, and a lot of people came up with more theories as to way we have no choice as well.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2121818?page=1

[Sinzaram]

Or if I feel that my self sustainability is problematic I can choose some healing talents with out feeling like I have to be in tank spec to survive.

My problem with this is the lvl 60 healing tier doesn't really increase self sustainability.
Everything except death pact costs massive amounts of lost damage.

If you open on leveling mists mobs with Death Siphon for example, you get some tiny amount of healing and are now fully outta runes.
The mobs will now reduce your hp by the amount Death Siphon healed while your runes regenerate and the mobs will remain alive.
So you end up worse off in terms of HP than if you just used dps abilities.

Same deal with conversion.
Due to spending all runic power on it your runes will take the full 10-8 seconds to regen and by the time are back up you'll be low on hp again and the mob's HP won't have moved.

Since they both cost so much lost damage resources, they don't help make you sustainable.

I remember back to wrath where we could regen 20% hp at will from death strike and 4% of all damage turned into healing via blood presence, now this was sustainability.
Now all out healing mechanics are health negatives over time rather than increases.

[Ichy]

Having the illusion of choice isn't really a choice is it? If you really look at the talents, they are all based on what spec you are in. I mean you're not going to pick RC or RE over blood tap as a tank are you?

I posted this same thread over on the beta forums too, and a lot of people came up with more theories as to way we have no choice as well.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2121818?page=1

If RC or RE fits my play style over Blood tap, then yes I'm going to choose it over blood tap - regardless of spec. I'm not going to bother reading that entire thread and nit pic, but after reading lots and lots of posts on this "illusion" here at MMOC, I feel that this illusion is all in your head. Not meaning just you, its a phrase and only proper way it comes out is as "in your head".

What I hear you saying is this "We don't have a lot of Choice. After I did testing (weather true or not), for me blood tap is the obvious choice for that tier for tanks because of x, y and z reasons. Therefore if you don't choose it as Tank your gimping your self/your dumb/ don't know how to play/etc" When the reality is, because of your other Talent choices and play style it just fits better.

Looking at it from a DPS stand point, if the difference between RC/RE/BT is say 1-3k damage sim'd (at perfect rotation for arguments sake), i'm going to pick what ever feels natural to me. Now if the difference is say 10k+, I'll pick the one that gives me more damage because it is noticeable difference, even more so when player error comes into effect.

---------- Post added 2012-07-30 at 05:03 PM ----------

My problem with this is the lvl 60 healing tier doesn't really increase self sustainability.
Everything except death pact costs massive amounts of lost damage.

If you open on leveling mists mobs with Death Siphon for example, you get some tiny amount of healing and are now fully outta runes.
The mobs will now reduce your hp by the amount Death Siphon healed while your runes regenerate and the mobs will remain alive.
So you end up worse off in terms of HP than if you just used dps abilities.

[snip]

I remember back to wrath where we could regen 20% hp at will from death strike and 4% of all damage turned into healing via blood presence, now this was sustainability.
Now all out healing mechanics are health negatives over time rather than increases.

Your comparing a time when DK's were OP as shit to a future version where they are a bit more on par with the game, and where the dev's want the class to be (at least according to blue posts). I wouldn't use Conversion in the middle of a fight, that is just dumb, but after- especially if i'm just going to mount up and turn a quest in- you bet, might as well get use out of that RP instead of just letting it degenerate.

As for Death Siphon, I see it more as DPS survival tool in parties and raids, where healing might be tight and surviving coupled with mechanics is more important than just mashing buttons as fast and as hard (yes hard!) to push your DPS that extra .5 or 1% to kill a boss. As for leveling, I'm sure I could find a suitable reasons for it that doesn't bring about this negative you suggest.

[Schizoide]

As for Death Siphon, I see it more as DPS survival tool in parties and raids, where healing might be tight and surviving coupled with mechanics is more important than just mashing buttons as fast and as hard (yes hard!) to push your DPS that extra .5 or 1% to kill a boss. As for leveling, I'm sure I could find a suitable reasons for it that doesn't bring about this negative you suggest.

You sound like GC during the Cataclysm beta. "DPS will have to worry about their survival! Healers won't be able to heal you! These abilities will be critically important in PvE!" All bullshit. Never happened.

[Ichy]

You sound like GC during the Cataclysm beta. "DPS will have to worry about their survival! Healers won't be able to heal you! These abilities will be critically important in PvE!" All bullshit. Never happened.

Just because you didn't see it happen does not mean that the Absence of evidence is the evidence of absence. If my guild is struggling to down a boss, and healing is an issue and I can self heal my self, that just means the raid as a whole will be better off. As for LFD groups, I seriously doubt you have NEVER run into that terrible healer that couldn't main heal... stone core (chose something easy), and if it wasn't for your own and the other 3 people (excluding healer 5- 1 = 4, 4 -1"you" = 3) survive-ability options, some trash/boss's wouldn't have gone down.

[Kaosbringer]

I still don't get how this is worse that it currently is, the talent-trees have been increasingly been made so you only had the illusion of choice.

The MoP talents are better than the Cata (4.x) ones since you actually get to make choices - as it is now you make no choices you just cherry pick for a little more DPS for most specs.

Some tier there are not choice, math says X talent wins (Tier 56:Plague Leach for DPS/blood and possible UB for Blood), other tiers are situational (If you ever need Chilibans for AoE slows over DA's Mobility, assuming frost UH has not choice outside of DA), the rest I could care less as they don't help in most cases.

In short DK talents are mess there are clearly talents tanks and DPS want/need to take in order to win. PvE has some choices but not many.

[Schizoide]

So you're saying that as a DPS spec, you regularly traded-off DPS to heal yourself in Cataclysm raid content?

Of course these abilities are situationally valuable. They always have been. You want to heal yourself after dropping to 1HP on Chimaeron before the stacking phase, for example. There's no reason for DPS players to tradeoff DPS in the vast majority of fights. You didn't see rets using selfless healer, or DPS DKs death striking, or shamans healing waving themselves, etc. It just wasn't necessary. The healers would take care of it, no problem.

If you pre-suppose that the healers are incompetent, that changes the equation. But there's no real point in going down that road.

[Schizoide]

I agree, but it's still better than how it currently is.

It is indeed an improvement. But it hasn't lived up to the original description. The MoP talent system is brilliant, but the implementation sucks.