[Megathread] Mass Effect 3

[Deleted]

Tell me why it's so hard for you to imagine that the Normandy was ordered to retreat. It literally took me 2 seconds to put 2 and 2 together.

Oh you and your assumptions.

So Valhalla burned despite being built up not to.
Thats hardly the same.
More like Valhalla was saved, maybe. You are never told anything. Wagner just died while writing.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

Really? You can't think without having missing information? People do that all the time. Also why do you care if your proven right or wrong by what you thought about the ending? Again you can make reasonable conclusions without having all the information. It's called using your imagination. I had so many kids argue with me about space magic when it was fairly obvious that the Normandy was simply ordered to retreat. If they had spent at least a minute in thought or reflection they would have realized that.

*sigh* Would you stop twisting my words, please?

One: I never said I can't think with missing information; I said I can't predict where the story will go. Well, technically, I could, but it would be pointless for my purposes.

Two: I care if I'm proven right or wrong because, if I'm proven wrong, it means I missed something or didn't consider something. If I'm proven right, it means I got inside the writer's head, which is my goal.

You keep bringing up imagination, but what you don't seem to be getting is that I do use my imagination, just not in the way you do. You use your imagination to fill in the blanks. I use my imagination to try to PREDICT WHERE THE STORY IS GOING TO GO. You use it for what you've already seen/read, I use it for what I'm going to see/read. You seem to think that your way is the only way, and that everyone else is simply being lazy or lacks imagination, and that is simply not the case. I'm not speaking for everyone, here, mind you. There were people who just didn't want to do any thinking at all - I'm not arguing against that. I'm simply saying that that's not the case for everyone.

[Glorious Leader]

Oh you and your assumptions.

well you tell me then what part of the ending made your head scream that you couldn't figure out with a couple seconds of imagination. Christ dude you realize the IT is really just a huge expression of peoples imagination?

---------- Post added 2012-08-04 at 09:32 AM ----------

*sigh* Would you stop twisting my words, please?

One: I never said I can't think with missing information; I said I can't predict where the story will go. Well, technically, I could, but it would be pointless for my purposes.

Two: I care if I'm proven right or wrong because, if I'm proven wrong, it means I missed something or didn't consider something. If I'm proven right, it means I got inside the writer's head, which is my goal.

You keep bringing up imagination, but what you don't seem to be getting is that I do use my imagination, just not in the way you do. You use your imagination to fill in the blanks. I use my imagination to try to PREDICT WHERE THE STORY IS GOING TO GO. You use it for what you've already seen/read, I use it for what I'm going to see/read. You seem to think that your way is the only way, and that everyone else is simply being lazy or lacks imagination, and that is simply not the case. I'm not speaking for everyone, here, mind you. There were people who just didn't want to do any thinking at all - I'm not arguing against that. I'm simply saying that's not the case for everyone.

No I think you can do both. I think you can imagine an ending and that's fine but if it doesn't pan out how you imagined it and theirs inconsistencies you can imagine holes to fill them up as well. People used to do that all the time, and the IT theory is really just an expression of that.

[Kaelwryn]

Is insulting other people really nessecary? Can't you have a discussion without throwing about things like "you have no imagination" and such...seriously just because someone prefers it one way doesn't make them wrong or you right.

[Glorious Leader]

Is insulting other people really nessecary? Can't you have a discussion without throwing about things like "you have no imagination" and such...seriously just because someone prefers it one way doesn't make them wrong or you right.

It's not a pejorative or insult to them or at least it wasn't meant as that. If it came across as that I'm sorry and I'll gladly go back and edit my posts. It's a reflection of what our culture has become.

[Deleted]

well you tell me then what part of the ending made your head scream that you couldn't figure out with a couple seconds of imagination. Christ dude you realize the IT is really just a huge expression of peoples imagination?

Its not my story, i shouldnt be writing it in my head like some degraded fanfic.
Theorizing what something means is not filling in for poor storytelling.

So how about you take your shitty better-than-you attitude, and fuck right off.

[Kaelwryn]

Ok, so my example isn't necessarily the best, but my point still stands. You don't need to stoop so low into insulting someone simply because they disagree with your point of view.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

No I think you can do both. I think you can imagine an ending and that's fine but if it doesn't pan out how you imagined it and theirs inconsistencies you can imagine holes to fill them up as well. People used to do that all the time, and the IT theory is really just an expression of that.

I never said you can't have both. In fact, this entire time I've been trying to say that you can have both. I've also been saying that if you only like to do one or the other, that's okay too. Art is meant to be appreciated in different ways.

[Glorious Leader]

Its not my story, i shouldnt be writing it in my head like some degraded fanfic.

So how about you take your shitty better-than-you attitude, and fuck right off.

*sigh* That really wasn't necessary. It's not an insult to any one in particular, it was more of a comment about our modern culture. I don't think I am better than you, I just didn't get upset at the inconsistencies and perceived plot holes in the story because well I thought about it for a bit and came to some conclusions about what must have happened.

---------- Post added 2012-08-04 at 09:41 AM ----------

I never said you can't have both. In fact, this entire time I've been trying to say that you can have both. I've also been saying that if you only like to do one or the other, that's okay too. Art is meant to be appreciated in different ways.

I'm not sure I'd call the discourse on the BSN and about mass effect 3 in general as art appreciation but I'd take your point in general and agree with it. That's more or less what I was trying to get at. Like nobody actually stops to think about it as art and reflect on it. They just see something, see an apparent inconsistency and run to the forums in a rage without any pause for reflection or thought. If that had always been the case throughout history than many of our greatest stories would simply be untold or trashed.

---------- Post added 2012-08-04 at 09:42 AM ----------

Ok, so my example isn't necessarily the best, but my point still stands. You don't need to stoop so low into insulting someone simply because they disagree with your point of view.

Again if I insulted anybody that was not my intent. I mean aside from some of the people on the BSN I don't think I insulted anybody in this thread. If so I'm extremely sorry that wasn't the intention. In fact I noticed that I did in one case and went back and edited asap because that wasn't really the point.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

I'm not sure I'd call the discourse on the BSN and about mass effect 3 in general as art appreciation but I'd take your point in general and agree with it. That's more or less what I was trying to get at that. Like nobody actually stops to think about it as art and reflect on it. They just see something, see an inconsistency and run to the forums in a rage without any pause for reflection or thought.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not speaking for everybody. There were definitely people who were like that. I was just not one of them, and I didn't appreciate being lumped in with them in some unnecessarily restrictive category. :P

[Glorious Leader]

Yeah, like I said, I'm not speaking for everybody. There were definitely people who were like that. I was just not one of them, and I didn't appreciate being lumped in with them in some unnecessarily restrictive category. :P

My apologies then. It wasn't my intent to group any one specific individual and if I did that was in error on my part. I would still suggest to you that if those people had a stronger capacity for imagination then their apparent anger at the ending would probably not have been as severe. That's not the case for EVERYBODY clearly but I think you can make a good case that it would have ebbed the amount of anger the people felt by a certain degree.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

My apologies then. It wasn't my intent to group any one specific individual and if I did that was in error on my part. I would still suggest to you that if those people had a stronger capacity for imagination then their apparent anger at the ending would probably not have been as severe. That's not the case for EVERYBODY clearly but I think you can make a good case that it would have ebbed the amount of anger the people felt by a certain degree.

Maybe I'm biased because I thoroughly enjoyed the EC endings and thought it was exactly what the game needed, but I'm glad the anger was as severe as it was. lol

[Glorious Leader]

Maybe I'm biased because I thoroughly enjoyed the EC endings and thought it was exactly what the game needed, but I'm glad the anger was as severe as it was. lol

I liked the EC to actually. Not really because of fixing plot holes or anything, I just liked the sense of wonder that came from being able to address the star child more. Like he hints about his creation and the reapers creation but he only hints at it right. He talks about his past a little bit and being able to go back into his past a little bit and getting more context out of him was really good. They should really tell that story actually. Like a super prequel. Like how they did Caprica and tried to explain how it became Battlestar galactica.

In principle I don't really have a problem with the star child. He's Mass Effect 3's Vigil and with the fuller context from the EC he approaches this comparison alot better. He just lacked the context and (some not all) people were simply unwilling to think about it outside of getting mad and heading to the forums.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

I felt like the original endings were really bland and uninteresting, to be honest. They felt out of place considering how amazing I felt the rest of the game was. I always said it felt like they did 99% of the game with the same team of writers they always had, then fired them all and brought in a new team just for the endings. The EC fixed that. It made the endings feel as incredible as the rest of the game(s) and gave the trilogy the ending I felt it deserved.

[Glorious Leader]

Good luck trying to convince that to anybody else. My only complaint about the endings is that it really is simply a matter of red blue and green. The actual choice at the end feels somewhat underwhelming which is strange because it's effect on the galaxy is enormous right.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

Good luck trying to convince that to anybody else.

I have already actually. XD

[Adam Jensen]

2. Plot holes and loopholes and things not making sense. Example: how was joker flying thorugh a mass effect relay when it blew up? why is liara on that planet even though she was with you at the end? This I disagree with because it's more or less a function of peoples simple lack of imagination. I got into so many arguments with people on the BSN because it's obvious what happened. We don't know how long shep was out for. Joker picked them up and they were ordered to retreat which is more or less what happened in the EC. NOBODY could accept that they. They raged and fumed about it and then the EC came out and it turned out that's exactly what happened. A simple lack of imagination on the part of the community.

While I understand what you're getting at, and I agree to a point, when receiving a story I don't want to be left relying on my imagination. I'm not one of the ones who bitched and raged, but I wanted to know what happened, example, I wanted to know how Kaiden and Garrus (or whoever) got onto the Normandy. I can assume they were rescued, but I don't want to assume. I want the story to tell me.

But yes, people overreacted and threw a giant hissy fit.

---------- Post added 2012-08-04 at 06:15 AM ----------

I liked the EC to actually. Not really because of fixing plot holes or anything, I just liked the sense of wonder that came from being able to address the star child more. Like he hints about his creation and the reapers creation but he only hints at it right. He talks about his past a little bit and being able to go back into his past a little bit and getting more context out of him was really good. They should really tell that story actually. Like a super prequel. Like how they did Caprica and tried to explain how it became Battlestar galactica.

In principle I don't really have a problem with the star child. He's Mass Effect 3's Vigil and with the fuller context from the EC he approaches this comparison alot better. He just lacked the context and (some not all) people were simply unwilling to think about it outside of getting mad and heading to the forums.

I could accept the star child better if he simply didn't take the shape of the little kid you see killed at the start of the game. I really don't understand that. I mean how would he know to take that shape?

[Oerba Yun Fang]

I could accept the star child better if he simply didn't take the shape of the little kid you see killed at the start of the game. I really don't understand that. I mean how would he know to take that shape?

As I understand it, the Catalyst used Shepard's memories to take form. Similar to how you see the masked quarians during the Geth Consensus, and Legion explains that Shepard uses her own memories to process the information.

[Glorious Leader]

While I understand what you're getting at, and I agree to a point, when receiving a story I don't want to be left relying on my imagination. I'm not one of the ones who bitched and raged, but I wanted to know what happened, example, I wanted to know how Kaiden and Garrus (or whoever) got onto the Normandy. I can assume they were rescued, but I don't want to assume. I want the story to tell me.

But yes, people overreacted and threw a giant hissy fit.

---------- Post added 2012-08-04 at 06:15 AM ----------



I could accept the star child better if he simply didn't take the shape of the little kid you see killed at the start of the game. I really don't understand that. I mean how would he know to take that shape?

I don't understand though, how would it have changed if you had seen the like 15 seconds of footage it took for them to get on back to the normandy? Seriously the part where Joker gets the order to retreat in the EC is what 10 seconds of cutscene? How does it change your overall outlook to have that filled in when you basically ALREADY KNOW IT through a simply act of thinking about it.

As for the star child it's pretty easy to figure that one out to. Given that the Reapers and by extension their creators have the ability to influence minds, it's not hard to see that the star child AI had influenced sheps perception so that it appeared to him as some recent traumatic memory. Such as the child dying at the start.

---------- Post added 2012-08-04 at 10:21 AM ----------

As I understand it, the Catalyst used Shepard's memories to take form. Similar to how you see the masked quarians during the Geth Consensus, and Legion explains that Shepard uses her own memories to process the information.

Yea I had read something along those lines as well but I wasn't sure if it was official or anything. Was that from BW directly?

[Oerba Yun Fang]

Yea I had read something along those lines as well but I wasn't sure if it was official or anything. Was that from BW directly?

I think it came from one of those Dev Q&A's, but I'm not certain. I could be talking out of my ass here. lol