Field of view

[Makovorn]

Hey everyone. I made some posts over on GW2GURU, including this one below. Hopefully, it will put to rest some of the confusion related to zoom-out vs. field of view. I'm new here, so linking to external sources doesn't work for me yet, but here's the post none the less.

Now, it's easy to say "zoom =/= FoV", but there are still some that don't quite understand why people say this. Some tend to think: "... hey, well, if I need to see more, I just use the mouse wheel, zoom out, and ta da! More view!". Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as that. Here's why, in simple Q&A format :

Q: If ArenaNet gives us even more zoom, won't it solve the difficulty some players are having with Guild Wars 2's constricted FoV?

Not really. Zooming out in Guild Wars 2 does but one thing: It moves your point-of-view (as the player) further away from your in-game character. That's it. Do you see more around your character? Sure. Does it actually do anything in terms of FoV from the point-of-view of you, the player? Not really.

Q: Why are zoom amounts and FoV unrelated this this case?

Simply put, your FoV is like a frontal cone that represents how much you can see at any given moment. No matter how much you zoom in or out, the amount of FoV you have in GW2, always remains the same.

Try this out: Stand up and look forward at what's in front of you. Now, put your hands next to your head and block off your peripheral vision (like wearing eye-flaps). Keep your hands in this position, boxing off your side view, and step backwards - this simulates a zoom out. Even though you've stepped backwards to observe more of what's in front of you, your vision is still boxed in - your FoV remains the same, only your position has changed.

Note, this only illustrates horizontal FoV. Vertical FoV is also vitally important, because without that, the image with just look squashed on the sides with an FoV increase. Vertical FoV also allows you to judge scale better, and see more of what's ahead and above you.

Q: But what about the context of your character in relation to the in-game environment? Surely you can observe more of what's around it?

Indeed you can, however your viewpoint as the player i.e. the person looking at a computer screen, looking at the game environment, looking at your character ... that viewpoint, will always be in the first person, and it's that viewpoint that matters in terms of FoV.

Q: Why do some players want more zoom and why are others so against it?

Even though zoom doesn't do anything in terms of FoV, it does have other advantages and disadvantages. The most obvious advantage, is that it gives you more situational awareness of your character's immediate vicinity. The big disadvantage, is that zoom-out also distances your point-of-view from your character.

Your character, along with whatever it's doing, becomes smaller and with too much zoom-out, you begin to loose touch with your character ... and it also goes against one of ArenaNet's core design principles, that is, visceral combat. All the detail of your character's motion (not to mention the animation cues from enemies), becomes null and void if your avatar is the size of a pea.

Also, as soon as you move into constricted areas, or you move with your back to a wall, rock or any collidable object, the game automatically flicks your zoom right into your character's backside.

Q: But doesn't an increase in FoV also decrease the size of your character - like when you zoom out?

It does, but not nearly as much as a zoom out. An increase in FoV, is like putting a wide-angle lens on a camera. There's a nice example on YouTube with the MMO "TERA", featuring both an increase in FoV and zoom out in a short, 36 second clip -> (see information on links at the bottom of this post). To get that amount of visual information just by zooming out (as apposed to changing the FoV), would distance you from your character significantly.

Q: Wouldn't a larger FoV give you a competitive advantage in PvP or even PvE?

How much of an advantage a larger FoV gives you in a competitive environment (if at all), is a hotly debated subject in the gaming community. Regardless of what your stance is, in the case of Guild Wars 2, you can already increase your FoV ... it just depends how deep your pockets are. Guild Wars 2 works with technologies like Nvidia's 3D surround or AMD's Eyefinity. At the moment, there are some bugs (like cutscenes and other vert-minus issues), but it is ArenaNet's intention of supporting it post-launch. They even demoed it during last year's convention season.

Q: What is this "3D surround" and "Eyefinity"?

Simply put, it allows you to play certain games using 3 monitors simultaneously if you have two pre-600 series Nvidia graphics cards in SLI, or two equivalent AMD cards in a crossfire configuration. With Nvidia's 600 series becoming mainstream, 3D surround vision is already becoming more accessible, because you now only need one 600 series graphics card to drive 3 monitors. This drastically widens your field of view.

Q: Why would ArenaNet be reluctant to give us more FoV?

There is no easy answer to that, as they haven't ever touched on this subject. We can however speculate, that a hard, non-adjustable increase in FoV will mess with their published minimum and recommended system specifications. When you increase your FoV, you're also increasing the amount of graphics the GPU has to render on your screen at any given time, and thus, it becomes more taxing on your system. Those with 2011/2012 mid to high-end setups might not notice a performance decrease, but those with lower end systems definitely will.

Q: Couldn't ArenaNet just give us a slider or some way to adjust the FoV?

Again, not an easy question to answer, because we don't really know how much time or effort it would take to implement such a feature. However, giving players the choice of upping the FoV to a comfortable level (by whichever means), seems like the best way to go. It then becomes like any other "graphics performance/quality" slider and it doesn't mess with the minimum system requirements. It will also help individual players to tailor the FoV to a setting that's comfortable for them. Some like it big ... some like it really big. ArenaNet could even cap it, at say 120 degrees, to preserve the quality of their product in the public view.

Q: If for some reason, ArenaNet doesn't provide us with FoV customization, what other options are there?

Only one that I can think of (save for investing in a 3 monitor setup) ... and that lies with an application called Widescreen Fixer. However, the app is not enough - it requires plug-ins that are tailor-made for the game you're playing. It's done wonders with SW:TOR and other games and my hope is that David Rudie (the wonderful person behind this project) will at some stage investigate the possibilities for Guild Wars 2.

Q: Why is the constricted FoV of Guild Wars 2 and other games such a biggie for some players?

For answers to that question, look no further than your friendly neighborhood YouTube service:

I can't add links, but search for:

• TotalBiscuit's video on FoV and the Darkness II
• FZDSchool video on FoV in games - Part 1
• FZDSchool video on FoV in games - Part 2
• Tera - Fov fix and framerate unlock - a short vid on how a change in FoV looks in the MMO TERA

For additional information, Google search is your friend - it's well documented. Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps. Feedback and alternate viewpoints are always welcome.

[DrakeWurrum]

Gotta take what he was saying in context. Drake was, at that time, discussing the other issues people have with the camera, not FoV. Of course, that's off topic for this thread, but...context matters.

Eh.... technically off topic, but still related to the topic.

More on-topic: I'm personally not fond of altering the FoV just because the result, when taking into consideration that your screen size/resolution would not change, would be a distorted view of in-game graphics.

Far as I can tell, what currently happens with GW2, with what we've seen of EyeFinity and such, is that increased resolution actually does increase the view of what you can see in the game world, rather than distorting the appearance of in-game graphics and models. In WoW, if you change resolution, you still see the exact same amount of game world, and it's extremely obvious when jumping between extreme aspect ratios that in-game graphics get "stretched" or "squished" as a result.

Increasing the FoV can be done in such a way as to match the aspect ratio, but not all players use the same aspect ratio.

[Nexrex]

@ makovorn: ty for visiting this thread, I've already referred to your writings before and again you don't disappoint ^_^
Hopefully your post is actually well received here as it is very informative ^_^
Ty you again for contributing.

[Mif]

Only one that I can think of (save for investing in a 3 monitor setup) ... and that lies with an application called Widescreen Fixer.

GW2 actually needs FoV tweaks on three screen more than it does on one screen imo. Three screen tend to fisheye the outside monitors too much

I'm also hoping the developer of Widescreen Fixer makes a GW2 plugin, I know he has expressed interest, but it won't happen for launch.

[Makovorn]

GW2 actually needs FoV tweaks on three screen more than it does on one screen imo. Three screen tend to fisheye the outside monitors too much

I'm also hoping the developer of Widescreen Fixer makes a GW2 plugin, I know he has expressed interest, but it won't happen for launch.

Aye, I've noticed that the edge warping in 3D surround is quite severe at the moment. Before the official forums closed after BWE3, ArenaNet did reply to some players giving feedback about this (and other issues). Unfortunately, I don't have a direct quote to reference, but as I recall, the developer said that they were aware of this issue and issues involving cropping, cut-scene's not working properly and problems relating to vert-minus, and that it is ArenaNet's plan to eventually fully support multi-monitor setups, perhaps just not before launch.

I've also noticed that, even though a 3 monitor setup gives you very wide field-of-view, the FoV along the vertical axis still feels a bit tight. I've tried it out at friends house and I had this weird feeling of wanting to see more of what lies beyond the top border of the screen. An increase in FoV will help with this, but if I decide to go with 3D surround in the mean time, I'll probably configure the screens in portrait mode.

Eh.... technically off topic, but still related to the topic.

More on-topic: I'm personally not fond of altering the FoV just because the result, when taking into consideration that your screen size/resolution would not change, would be a distorted view of in-game graphics. -snip-

From pure observation, is looks like GW2's current FoV is around the 60 degrees mark, similar to the native FoV of Tera. I can't post links properly yet, but have a look at this video on YouTube - it's only 36 seconds long: youtube.com/watch?v=d4-CnTvRe_U

Here you see a switch between 60 and a 100 without too much visual warping. My personal preference, is around the 80, maybe 90 degree mark. To me, that looks proper, and it also solves the problems related to disorientation. Some players like to push it to the 120 degree mark, and it's here where you'll begin to see significant visual warping or the "fish-eye lens effect". Personally, I would not play GW2 at such a large setting, but I would like to have the choice of adjusting up to, say, a 100 max.

In any event, I don't believe it should be fixed (at any amount) - the best way would be for ArenaNet to give us some control over it - a slider maybe, or a type-in box ... or even a command-line parameter. This way, players can adjust it to suit their own personal comfort level.

[Lucky_]

Here you see a switch between 60 and a 100 without too much visual warping. My personal preference, is around the 80, maybe 90 degree mark. To me, that looks proper, and it also solves the problems related to disorientation. Some players like to push it to the 120 degree mark, and it's here where you'll begin to see significant visual warping or the "fish-eye lens effect". Personally, I would not play GW2 at such a large setting, but I would like to have the choice of adjusting up to, say, a 100 max.

Proper FOV is individual and dependent on two factors:
1. Size of your diplay
2. Distance from your eyes to your display

As a result there is no such thing as "one size fits all". So whatever looks "disorienting" on one setup looks perfect on another and "fishbowled" on a third setup.

[Nexrex]

GW2 actually needs FoV tweaks on three screen more than it does on one screen imo. Three screen tend to fisheye the outside monitors too much

I'm also hoping the developer of Widescreen Fixer makes a GW2 plugin, I know he has expressed interest, but it won't happen for launch.

Been in contact per mail with the creator of widescreen fixer, and he says that atm he has no way of looking into it since he doesn't own guild wars 2.
So guess for now all we can do is pray for a slider from Arenanet.

---------- Post added 2012-08-15 at 09:42 AM ----------

Proper FOV is individual and dependent on two factors:
1. Size of your diplay
2. Distance from your eyes to your display

As a result there is no such thing as "one size fits all". So whatever looks "disorienting" on one setup looks perfect on another and "fishbowled" on a third setup.

There are a lot of factors involved so it is indeed needed to have a slider since one fov setting will look perfect to you, but on my setup the same might make me puke :-P

[Mif]

Been in contact per mail with the creator of widescreen fixer, and he says that atm he has no way of looking into it since he doesn't own guild wars 2.

There are two guys who do the plugins, Dopefish (WSF creator) and Helifax, so hopefully Helifax plans on buying GW2

[Nexrex]

There are two guys who do the plugins, Dopefish (WSF creator) and Helifax, so hopefully Helifax plans on buying GW2

Just hope somebody plans on fixing it. Arenanet or someone else. Arenanet fixing it would ofc be preferable.

[roboaxxil]

Forever alone from getting motion sickness and you're not even in motion.

[Makovorn]

Proper FOV is individual and dependent on two factors:
1. Size of your diplay
2. Distance from your eyes to your display

As a result there is no such thing as "one size fits all". So whatever looks "disorienting" on one setup looks perfect on another and "fishbowled" on a third setup.

I absolutely agree with you - 100%. The numbers mentioned in my post was a pure reflection of my own preferences with regards to FoV. In fact, I know quite a few people (incl. MikeB aka Fony) who likes to push the FoV in games to very high numbers. Here's a short snippet what he said after last month's "Guild Wars 2 First Look - The Asura" over on Gamebreaker TV:

Me: Mike, I've got to ask: What do you think of GW2's field of view? To me, it feels ... -snip-

iamthemikeb: Funny.. I tend to think that all games have a crappy FOV because I tend to bend things around 100-120. You are correct though, the camera ... -snip-

Those are the relevant bits, but you can read the whole thing in the comments section here: gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/guild-wars-2-first-look-the-asura/

So it would indeed be arrogant presumption on my part to say that 100 to 120 looks wrong, because to another person it would seem perfectly normal. The video's from the FZD School I mentioned in my (very long) post above, illustrates your two points beautifully. That said, when I played Skyrim on my pal's XBOX (while sitting a rather healthy distance away from his telly), it still felt constricted as all hell. There wasn't any disorientation, it just felt incredibly claustrophobic. Luckily, the PC version allowed us to adjust it in the console.

There definitely isn't such a thing as "one size fits all". The best solution here, is for the developers to give us some control over it by means of a slider, a type-in field in the options menu, a command-line parameter, a /dev command in the chat box ... or anything really.

[Nexrex]

I think the stress test today will be first one I won't be able to attend. Anyone mind making a ticket on the whole fov issue once the servers turn on?

[reckoner04]

I think the stress test today will be first one I won't be able to attend. Anyone mind making a ticket on the whole fov issue once the servers turn on?

Sure. If I get on and don't forget about it, ofc .

[iCandy]

I'm not convinced people are getting sick due to the games POV, not to be confused with FOV as stated in the Q & A posted here.

So if people are getting dizzy from this game, they most likely will get dizzy in other MMO's as well.

I personally have experienced FOV sickness in FPS games. Hell, even watching a gameplay video that has 60FOV in-game on YouTube has given me headaches.

[Deleted]

I'm not convinced people are getting sick due to the games POV, not to be confused with FOV as stated in the Q & A posted here.

So if people are getting dizzy from this game, they most likely will get dizzy in other MMO's as well.

Nope I Play wow with no problems whatsoever, and have played rift and swtor and been perfeectly fine.

GW2/Kingdoms of Amalur/Skyrim = queasy stomach after about 10 mins which has lead to sevear migrane attacks after about 20-30mins.

Basically Games with Cameras up the arses of the character you are playing (causeing your character to block the view) and has a small field of view make me quite ill. I'm forever trying to scroll the camera out, it's instinctual, and even though I know it won't pull back I still try for some reason :/

[Deleted]

Nope I Play wow with no problems whatsoever, and have played rift and swtor and been perfeectly fine.

GW2/Kingdoms of Amalur/Skyrim = queasy stomach after about 10 mins which has lead to sevear migrane attacks after about 20-30mins.

Basically Games with Cameras up the arses of the character you are playing (causeing your character to block the view) and has a small field of view make me quite ill. I'm forever trying to scroll the camera out, it's instinctual, and even though I know it won't pull back I still try for some reason :/

You can, at least for skyrim, change the FoV with console commands. Usually accessed by hitting `, typing 'fov 95' will get you a decent FoV

[Xuvial]

Games like Battlefield: Bad Company 2, Mass Effect 3 and Crysis 2 almost caused me to throw up with their default FoV, after just ~1 hour of gameplay I felt like hurling my breakfast and lunch. I used to think that it only happened to me, but turns out it's quite common...which brings up the question of "why the fuck are developers oblivious to this?"

Anyway I dragged through the first ~5 pages of this thread desperately looking for an ingame creenshot where someone had zoomed as far out as possible to show the camera max distance. Alas, nothing. Just diagrams and theories.

If someone could PLEASE show a screenie zoomed out as far from their character as possible, it would be greatly appreciated and would instantly answer all my camera-related questions . I already pre-purchased this game soooo now I'm extra-desparate

As for the theory part of it, I believe FoV doesn't matter in a setting where the camera isn't attached to the player and is freely rotatable/zoomable. Best example = WoW, the question of FoV doesn't come into play because I can zoom out far enough from my character to get a huge view of the world.
Where FoV DOES matter is in games where the camera is fixed to the player, i.e. all first-person shooters and select third-person shooters like Mass Effect/Gears of War or Crysis/Battlefield.

[Deleted]

As for the theory part of it, I believe FoV doesn't matter in a setting where the camera isn't attached to the player and is freely rotatable/zoomable. Best example = WoW, the question of FoV doesn't come into play because I can zoom out far enough from my character to get a huge view of the world.

Some people are still affected by it in MMOs. There was even an addon created for WoW that increased FoV because it got no dev support at all. I hope anet won't go down that road.

[Xuvial]

Yeah I should've read the Q&A on page 7.

If I am to understand, WoW seamlessly increases both FoV and zoom distance when you rotate your mousewheel.

Meanwhile GW2 keeps the FoV fixed and only increses zoom - is this correct? If it is, GW2 would be the only game I know which does that. Zooming out in a 3rd person game has always meant being able to see more...atleast that's the way it has been in WoW and Rift.

This pretty much doubles the need of ingame screenshots PLEASE, one with the camera zoomed in and one zoomed out as far as it goes for comparision purposes. I've never had a chance to play beta so I need to understand what's going on.

[iCandy]

If someone could PLEASE show a screenie zoomed out as far from their character as possible, it would be greatly appreciated and would instantly answer all my camera-related questions . I already pre-purchased this game soooo now I'm extra-desparate

http://s207.photobucket.com/albums/b...ent=CharSS.png

And that's a Charr, one of the biggest characters in game. I think the Norn might have them a little on height/width.