Field of view

[Rife]

Then ask yourself "since its already a part of the game, would a manual slider hurt me in any way?" and "would it help those who have issues?".

Some are wary that FoV increases can give advantages to those with higher FoV as they can see more around them and we all how importing situational awareness is.

[Nexrex]

Some are wary that FoV increases can give advantages to those with higher FoV as they can see more around them and we all how importing situational awareness is.

That has been disputed many times in FoV discussions regarding fps games on competitive levels by far better players than me and you. So that argument bears no weight here.

[Deleted]

A wide FOV should be possible on all new game releases by now. It has become firmly established that a large number of players suffer symptoms from playing with a narrow field of view and it's not difficult for developers to add the option. There is no real argument against it, just the clueless ramblings of the likes of "Rife" who insists it's the players' faults for getting nauseous because they aren't running a 3 monitor setup.

[rezoacken]

Why is there a debate ?

You don't experience the effects of a narrow FoV ? Congratulations, now shut up and be supportive for people experiencing it...

This thread kinda blows my mind.

The fairness argument (or intended feature).... please, how having some players experience headaches is f'ing fair ? Everybody will have the option to increase FoV how would it become unfair ? It's like saying we shouldn't zoom out because it gives an advantage...
Performances ? Pfff, would change almost nothing.
Difficulty of implementation ? Can be done in a day.

And I'm not even subject to the effects :/

On a side note... MMO isn't the best place, hope they take care of it quickly after the 25th once people point the problem on the official forums and it gets enough support.

[Deleted]

Firstly, it doesn't exist on "every game we play". Almost all games I own either have a decent FoV for PC's, or have the option to change the FoV ingame, or via a .cfg file, or with a third-party tool. GW2 is the first game I have come across that has no software fix - imagine if you had no option to adjust the resolution, or no option to adjust mouse/camera sensitivity, just told to play what you're given and enjoy the headaches.

Secondly, "extreme minority" my ass. Learn to back up your claims before you assume stuff.

edit: SOURCE

Research done at the University of Minnesota had students play Halo for less than an hour, and found that up to 50 percent felt sick afterwards.

In a study conducted by U.S. Army Research Institute for the Behavioral and Social Sciences in a report published May 1995 titled "Technical Report 1027 - Simulator Sickness in Virtual Environments", out of 742 pilot exposures from 11 military flight simulators, "approximately half of the pilots (334) reported post-effects of some kind: 250 (34%) reported that symptoms dissipated in less than 1 hour, 44 (6%) reported that symptoms lasted longer than 4 hours, and 28 (4%) reported that symptoms lasted longer than 6 hours. There were also 4 (1%) reported cases of spontaneously occurring flashbacks."

About 33% of people are susceptible to motion sickness even in mild circumstances such as being on a boat in calm water, although nearly 66% of people are susceptible in more severe conditions.


Simulation sickness is not some myth, nor is it experienced by just a minority. It's part of human biology.

Let me just point out that this study was done almost two decades ago. In 1995. You know what kind of screens they had back then? Cathode ray tube screens, or CRT for short. You know when LCD screens overtook CRT screens in sales figures? 2007. Do you also what one of the biggest issues with CRT screens were? Flickering. You know what prolonged exposure to flickering commonly does? Cause nausea, vomiting, headache and confusion.

What I'm trying to say is that your cited source for the extent of people suffering due to FOV is extremely skewed due to being both extremely outdated, not related to FOV in the first place, and having a very common non-FOV source for all symptoms described.

[Deleted]

Please tell me what OTHER than FoV could have caused them to experience simulation sickness. Would love to hear it.

- Camera motion/"bobbing" as it follows your character.
- "Motion-blur" effects
- Large changes in FoV (frequent and/or unexpected camera zooms)
- (EDIT) Oh yes, thanks Jigain, Flickering and low-frequency displays (I always felt worse playing on PAL TVs than NTSC)

...I have a number of tricks up my sleeve to make pretty-much anybody want to throw-up.

[Xuvial]

Some are wary that FoV increases can give advantages to those with higher FoV as they can see more around them and we all how importing situational awareness is.

You contradict yourself by telling people to get multi-monitor setups to force the game to increase it's FoV...and then say that higher FoV gives an advantage so it shouldn't be done. Wat.
The "it gives an advantage" argument has been discussed a hundred times already in multiple threads on other forums, and proven to be a void argument. It's not an advantage if everyone has access to the same FoV slider which will allow values bewteen 60 and 90.

WoW doesn't even need an FoV slider because the zoom function seamlessly adjusts both FoV and zoom on the fly. Because WoW's camera does this, people incorrectly assumed FoV and zoom were the same thing in MMO's - that is, until GW2's came along. People just said "please let us zoom out more", but it was more than just zoom.Out of 10 million players I don't think anyone has experienced motion sickness when playing WoW, even if it's for the first time.
Most players actually neglect how brilliant and polished WoW's camera is. It ever hinders gameplay, transitions smoothly between first-person and 3rd person, smoothly between indoors and outdoors, and basically feels like your own eyes. Rift (and other MMO's) copied WoW's camera controls and found that nobody had any issues with it.

If GW2 can make a camera which seamlessly adjusts FoV and zoom like WoW's camera, an FoV slider won't be needed and will be irrelevant.
Also I reckon ~99% of GW2 players (actually no, 99% of PC gamers) have single or dual-monitor setups. It's a fairly safe assumption because most PC gamers will fit under one of these when it comes to triple-screen gaming:
1) Can't afford 3 screens
2) Don't have desks/space for 3 screens
2) Don't have graphics cards that even support 3 screens
3) Don't have setups that can pull playable framerates across 3 screens
4) Dislike the thick bezels that come with most affordable screens
5) Simply find it unnecessary and overkill

A lot of PC gamers have 2 screens, but it's not for multi-monitor gaming (because having a bezel down the middle is retarded). It's for single-monitor gaming + web browsing at the same time.

[Lucky_]

Let me just point out that this study was done almost two decades ago. In 1995. You know what kind of screens they had back then? Cathode ray tube screens, or CRT for short. You know when LCD screens overtook CRT screens in sales figures? 2007. Do you also what one of the biggest issues with CRT screens were? Flickering. You know what prolonged exposure to flickering commonly does? Cause nausea, vomiting, headache and confusion.

What I'm trying to say is that your cited source for the extent of people suffering due to FOV is extremely skewed due to being both extremely outdated, not related to FOV in the first place, and having a very common non-FOV source for all symptoms described.

Most military simulators are done with projectors, not cathode ray tubes. This is due to sheer size of display, as CRT generally effectively caps at around 40 inches, and anything bigger then that is typically a rear projection set due to edge distortions becoming to severe to correct unless screen is angled in extreme fashion away from the viewer at the edges. This was deemed unsuitable even for consumer models, much less the military applications like flight simulators.

Also, "flickering" only occurs with low end 50/60hz models. This is why most monitors were capable of at least 75hz refresh rate even back in early 90s when computers started becoming common, and many monitors were capable of 100hz.

Also it's a completely different issue. Specifically flickering is not about simulation sickness but about stressing peripheral vision by seeing individual flicks, causing stress on eyes, rather then internal conflict of various algorithms used by our brain for navigation. This resulted in eye soreness, not motion sickness.

[Dodrin]

I'm more confused about what is different with GW2 than other MMOs. Me, personally, I haven't noticed a difference in camera between any of the MMOs I've played, other than zoom distance. So I've got to ask, do any of you experiencing these "FoV problems" experience them in any other MMO? And enlighten us to the differences of camera between MMOs that give you FoV sickness, and those that don't. I mostly see people citing FPS's for giving problems, but not other MMOs.

[galaxiah]

Err no it's not the character placement. It's the angle of view you have on the world, that angle is too narrow for PC monitors. An FoV slider would increase that angle.

Go back to those FoV videos to truly understand, or play a first person shooter which allows you to adjust the FoV (Far Cry series, Crysis series, Battlefield series all allow this).

Thank you Xuvial and Nexrex for explaining more.
No I pretty much understand now what they could implement, I understand the difference in FoV, I was just unsure of how they could fix it other than moving character placement and positioning the camera.

I honestly know now why I had issues playing the game. I wasn't getting sick but I had to stop playing after only an hour or two if I made it that far because my eyes and brain literally felt tired and I wasn't having fun anymore. And I understand now it's from this unconscious work my brain is struggling to do in order to see a wider FoV that just isn't there.

After understanding this and watching the Charr video below your post, I felt while watching him play that I was looking at the world with a box on my head blocking my peripheral vision, making me feel like I have tunnel vision.


The thing I don't understand now is why other people are against ANet even implementing a slider to help those who have this problem. It's kind of rude. How would an option impact you and your experience?

[Deleted]

The thing I don't understand now is why other people are against ANet even implementing a slider to help those who have this problem. It's kind of rude. How would an option impact you and your experience?

i agree
cant understand this actully either why someone else would be bothered with them Implenting a slider

does it somehow affect others ?


sry for my bad english

[Lucky_]

The thing I don't understand now is why other people are against ANet even implementing a slider to help those who have this problem. It's kind of rude. How would an option impact you and your experience?

Unfortunately there will always be a group of players so emotionally invested in game that any suggestion that game is flawed and needs improvements will receive angry denials that this can't be so because it can't be flawed.

It's not about flaw itself.

[galaxiah]

i agree
cant understand this actully either why someone else would be bothered with them Implenting a slider

does it somehow affect others ?


sry for my bad english

I guess people are concerned that people with a three monitor set up who already have a wider FoV will be able to have an even larger FoV and thus have a greater advantage at seeing what is around them. Really only an issue in PvP situations.

This isn't even an argument, people with 3 monitors already have this advantage of seeing more than a single monitor person because they created their own wider FoV with the two extra monitors..... either way they still have this "advantage" with or without a slider.

---------- Post added 2012-08-20 at 02:07 PM ----------

Unfortunately there will always be a group of players so emotionally invested in game that any suggestion that game is flawed and needs improvements will receive angry denials that this can't be so because it can't be flawed.

It's not about flaw itself.

And I hate people like this.
I am emotionally invested in this game, I have been following it for years. I've painted my own fan art, and I anticipate to buy as much merchandise as I can or what ever they make, I consider myself a huge fangirl. But nothing is perfect, to think that everything is perfect in GW2 is ignorant, even ANet knows they have improvements to make. It's a game ffs. But its important that everyone who plays is comfortable while they play. Why on earth would you tell someone that they should stop playing or not play because of a perfectly normal and understandable issue they have when it comes to persistent vision and feeling ill because of an unnatural FoV? You quite frankly sound like a huge asshole for saying so, just because you simply don't understand what they are experiencing.

[Barcasaur]

Let me just point out that this study was done almost two decades ago. In 1995. You know what kind of screens they had back then? Cathode ray tube screens, or CRT for short. You know when LCD screens overtook CRT screens in sales figures? 2007. Do you also what one of the biggest issues with CRT screens were? Flickering. You know what prolonged exposure to flickering commonly does? Cause nausea, vomiting, headache and confusion.

What I'm trying to say is that your cited source for the extent of people suffering due to FOV is extremely skewed due to being both extremely outdated, not related to FOV in the first place, and having a very common non-FOV source for all symptoms described.

Less then an hour =/= Prolonged exposure.

Either way don't feel like reading thru this thread but an FoV slider should be standard in any pc, of any genre, everyone plays at a different distance away with a different size screen let people set the FoV to suit their needs.

[Lucky_]

You misunderstand. For some people, the "game is flawless" is a belief. For you, "game is awesome" is a belief.

These are two very different beliefs. One accepts the flaws and wants them fixed. One aggressively denies the flaws even when they're obvious.

[galaxiah]

You misunderstand. For some people, the "game is flawless" is a belief. For you, "game is awesome" is a belief.

These are two very different beliefs. One accepts the flaws and wants them fixed. One aggressively denies the flaws even when they're obvious.

No I understand. I just hate the ones that aggressively deny flaws. I wasn't saying I was one of them, just that people can still love the game just as much as the "flawless" believers without being ignorant.

[Lucky_]

No I understand. I just hate the ones that aggressively deny flaws. I wasn't saying I was one of them, just that people can still love the game just as much as the "flawless" believers without being ignorant.

The problem is that your type and their type tends to call themselves by the same term. In a way, it's not that different from, for example, a moderate religious person and extremist religious person define themselves by the same term regardless of the fact that their beliefs are often polar opposites.

Hence, misunderstandings arise.

[Deleted]

If ppl could points us in the past that their sickness was not caused from the <<not enought ability to zoom out>> (whch they increased x2 times in the 2 different tests ) , but tried to point out the FoV , the problems would be solved faster...
So if this site knew to recognise the problem faster instead of apeshitting , that problem would be fixxed ... (i am not talking about Narrex)

[Nexrex]

If ppl could points us in the past that their sickness was not caused from the <<not enought ability to zoom out>> (whch they increased x2 times in the 2 different tests ) , but tried to point out the FoV , the problems would be solved faster...
So if this site knew to recognise the problem faster instead of apeshitting , that problem would be fixxed ... (i am not talking about Narrex)

It's a real unfortunate thing, from what I have seen when a field of view thread gets started on the official forum, it takes so little time before it gets drowned out by people crying about zoom. So I fear the message gets lost in the ocean of ignorance :-(

[Lusitan]

Then maybe gaming isn't for you, lol?

for a mod, this a great reply.