Field of view

[Nexrex]

Im just curious, in what ways have you tried to reach the devs and telling about your issues? I'm surprised if they haven't said anything about this at all, if it really are this many people with motion sickness and issues with FoV overall as people claim. :/

I've had my say on the official forum when that's been up, seeing as it's taken down if the game itself isn't up.
Now the problem with that, is the fact that taking up the FoV issue there makes people who don't have a clue sadly, drown it out with a bunch of other camera issues, the most common reply to "include a FoV slider so I don't get sick" being "omg yes give us more zoooooomz"....
It's really devastating to go through the official forum because of this.
Secondly I've managed to be in every beta weekend and stress test and have posted tickets in game regarding this issue. On one side those won't be drowned with useless comments, but on the other side they don't get a reply either as far as I've seen.

Now other than bringing the issue up here, I've had my say on other sites including, but not limited to, arenajunkies, guildwars2guru and various other forums.

And because people so often fail to grasp the concept of FoV more often than I like it gets lost in a sea of people wanting to zoom out more...

And as far as official replies all I have seen is (ofc) replies on camera position and camera zoom, but not specifically regarding fov.
But I'll keep trying. Somebody has to...

[Xuvial]

That's a fact indeed.

So it's literally something that already EXISTS in the game rofl, it's just disabled during normal gameplay.

Perfect.

[Deleted]

So it's literally something that already EXISTS in the game rofl, it's just disabled during normal gameplay.

Perfect.

I was under the impression that zooming out would NOT solve your issue?

[Nexrex]

@Jigain:
The issue is there regardless of what type of game it is. 2 examples of the top of my head of bad fov settings on launch: skyrim and kingdoms of amalur. Now skyrim was fairly easy to fix with console commands. For me anything under fov 90 was unplayable and it made no difference whatsoever if I was in first person view or third.
Kingdoms of amalur was a harder nut to crack. Had to resort to third party programs like widescreen fixer to manage to get the game on a playable setting. Would be so much easier if developers just included a slider for it in settings.

Now for Guild Wars 2,just like kingdoms of amalur, same remains true. The settings isn't cutting it for me. And in its current state I have to go windowed mode and make the window cropped down on the height so the image gets wider and remarkably that makes the game adjust its FoV to a much better setting. However pop into full screen and it's unbearable for more than 20-30 minutes.
Now since gw2 adjusts its own fov when you force a windowed mode and also when on a multi screen setup, I truly don't understand why we can't have a FoV slider to self adjust while in full screen on a single screen.

---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 02:21 PM ----------

I was under the impression that zooming out would NOT solve your issue?

Zoom helps. It's akin to stitching up a wound. It won't cure the wound but it will help. Zoom and fov are not the same though. FoV is in regards to giving a higher angle of vision, resulting in more peripheral vision, while zoom just moves your camera back.
That being said, I don't want more zoom. Not at all. I simply want to set fov so I will have more peripheral vision, and not puke every 30 minutes or so. Zoom is fine as is. FoV is horrible as is.

[Deleted]

@Jigain:
The issue is there regardless of what type of game it is. 2 examples of the top of my head of bad fov settings on launch: skyrim and kingdoms of amalur. Now skyrim was fairly easy to fix with console commands. For me anything under fov 90 was unplayable and it made no difference whatsoever if I was in first person view or third.
Kingdoms of amalur was a harder nut to crack. Had to resort to third party programs like widescreen fixer to manage to get the game on a playable setting. Would be so much easier if developers just included a slider for it in settings.

Now for Guild Wars 2,just like kingdoms of amalur, same remains true. The settings isn't cutting it for me. And in its current state I have to go windowed mode and make the window cropped down on the height so the image gets wider and remarkably that makes the game adjust its FoV to a much better setting. However pop into full screen and it's unbearable for more than 20-30 minutes.
Now since gw2 adjusts its own fov when you force a windowed mode and also when on a multi screen setup, I truly don't understand why we can't have a FoV slider to self adjust while in full screen on a single screen.

Well, what I don't quite understand is the cause of the motion sickness. As I said in post #261, I really want to understand how a third-person game can induce the same kind of motion sickness a first-person game can. It just doesn't add up to me, and I would assume the same holds true for many others - if we could bridge that gap between our experiences, I think you'll find a lot more sympathy and understanding from the community as a whole.

I was unaware GW2 adjusts FOV in windowed mode. Then, just hypothetically, would it be feasible to play the game in a resized windowed mode and not experience the FOV-related nausea? Note I'm not suggesting this as a permanent solution, I'm just wondering if it's possible.

[Nexrex]

Well, what I don't quite understand is the cause of the motion sickness. As I said in post #261, I really want to understand how a third-person game can induce the same kind of motion sickness a first-person game can. It just doesn't add up to me, and I would assume the same holds true for many others - if we could bridge that gap between our experiences, I think you'll find a lot more sympathy and understanding from the community as a whole.

I was unaware GW2 adjusts FOV in windowed mode. Then, just hypothetically, would it be feasible to play the game in a resized windowed mode and not experience the FOV-related nausea? Note I'm not suggesting this as a permanent solution, I'm just wondering if it's possible.

Let me see...
First person view, your vision, perceived vision is placed at the eyes of your character, therefore its a much more common issue in fps cause you are the character and it's fov is yours: so it becomes much more obvious if you are sensitive to fov differences. Hence why I don't play fps that don't have a FoV slider.
Now in third person mode, your perceived vision is placed at the camera again, but now you are behind your character. However there is still the sense that there should be a peripheral vision there which your brain tells you there should be but your eyes don't see it so the same uneasy feeling returns. Now for me the difference is in minutes. Fps with bad fov can keep me playing for about 5 minutes before I puke, while a third person view see me lasting longer, around 20-30 minutes. The issue is still the same but because I'm more detached from the character I'm playing it sets in slower.
Another issue with the camera is its unnatural feel overall, which I relate to the position. The camera is set to low near the ground making it feel weird in itself. Now add bad fov setting and you got a receipt for nausea..

[Deleted]

Let me see...
First person view, your vision, perceived vision is placed at the eyes of your character, therefore its a much more common issue in fps cause you are the character and it's fov is yours: so it becomes much more obvious if you are sensitive to fov differences. Hence why I don't play fps that don't have a FoV slider.
Now in third person mode, your perceived vision is placed at the camera again, but now you are behind your character. However there is still the sense that there should be a peripheral vision there which your brain tells you there should be but your eyes don't see it so the same uneasy feeling returns. Now for me the difference is in minutes. Fps with bad fov can keep me playing for about 5 minutes before I puke, while a third person view see me lasting longer, around 20-30 minutes. The issue is still the same but because I'm more detached from the character I'm playing it sets in slower.
Another issue with the camera is its unnatural feel overall, which I relate to the position. The camera is set to low near the ground making it feel weird in itself. Now add bad fov setting and you got a receipt for nausea..

All right, I think I understand. So detaching the camera from the character helps, but doesn't resolve it? Well, I guess it does for some people.

Would it help if you placed the screen further away (or more appropriately, placed yourself further away from the screen)? Would that reduce the sense of peripheral vision being meant to be wider? I understand it most likely won't in an FPS, but I'm thinking third-person games now.

[Nexrex]

Well sitting 5 meters from my pc monitor isn't exactly an option.

[Deleted]

Zoom and fov are not the same though. FoV is in regards to giving a higher angle of vision, resulting in more peripheral vision, while zoom just moves your camera back.

I'm only mentioning this again because you're obviously very interested in the subject, and are keen for everyone to be educated.

Moving your camera back is not zoom. It's just moving your camera back!

Zoom and FoV are directly linked. In 3D graphics, if you decrease the FoV, you "zoom in". If you increase the FoV, you "zoom out".

A zoom lens on a camera shifts between wide-angle and telephoto focal lengths, to achieved zoomed out or zoomed in images, without the photographer/camera-man moving his feet or extending his go-go-gadget-arms.

Moving your camera back & forth is not FoV.
Moving your camera back & forth is not zoom.

But FoV and zoom are heavily related.

Sorry to be pendantic. I know it's common for people to refer to increasing/decreasing camera distance as "zoom", because it's easier and everyone else generally knows what you mean. But in a thread that is really getting down to the technical nitty-gritty, I think it's important.

--------

Nexrex is right that the issue is there regardless of "first-person" or "third-person". At the end of the day, you're still viewing the scene through a virtual camera. It's just that the camera can be positioned in your character's head, or some distance behind.

The only difference may be that the persistence of your own avatar in the middle of your screen may help to allieviate some of the symptoms. However, if the camera is bobbing around relative to your character then there's also a chance it could make it worse!

I myself suffer from simulation sickness when playing games. However, it's usually not from FoV alone - not unless it's inappropriately very low or very high. Usually there are other factors involved, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, such as camera bobbing and blur effects etc.

There was a good article I read a couple years back on how the developers of Mirror's Edge discussed the causes of, and counteracted, the much-higher-than-average upchuck-factor of that game. I can't seem to find it now though.

[Dodrin]

@Jigain:


Now for Guild Wars 2,just like kingdoms of amalur, same remains true. The settings isn't cutting it for me. And in its current state I have to go windowed mode and make the window cropped down on the height so the image gets wider and remarkably that makes the game adjust its FoV to a much better setting.

When you put your problem like this, I don't understand how a game can fix this for you. It sounds like a problem with your monitor. If the game itself were to give you a wider FoV than your monitor gives, you would get scrunching or warping wouldn't you?

Just seems like having a wider screen monitor fixes your problem, not something with the game itself.

[Lusitan]

Wait wait, look at the below video....how the HELL did that guy manage to zoom out so far from his char? That's nearly as much zoom as WoW's zoom!

it does that on boss fights, its a feature for large fights.

they have it implemented but prefered not to allow for gamers to adjust it while playing in other parts of the game

---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 02:20 PM ----------

Im just curious, in what ways have you tried to reach the devs and telling about your issues? I'm surprised if they haven't said anything about this at all, if it really are this many people with motion sickness and issues with FoV overall as people claim. :/

i made posts about a FoV Slider on BWE1, BWE2 and BWE3, and it had a very large discussion in all 3, but NO DEV reply whatsoever, not even to acknowledge the thread and our problems.

i also made posts about auto-facing and ability queues in all 3 events.

---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 02:23 PM ----------

I think alot of ppl say they have it because it gives an advantage in PvP. And another group of players is confusing the fast camera movement in this game and how it renders the environment with FOV motion-sickness when it really is something else.

Im siding with Jigain on this one.

i can just get another 2 monitor and get that PvP advantage you mentioned.

im actually budgetting to buy another 2 monitor if Anet doesnt change its camera options for launch or shortly after launch, i like the game alot, but i dont like feeling ill when i play it

[Nexrex]

When you put your problem like this, I don't understand how a game can fix this for you. It sounds like a problem with your monitor. If the game itself were to give you a wider FoV than your monitor gives, you would get scrunching or warping wouldn't you?

Just seems like having a wider screen monitor fixes your problem, not something with the game itself.

Try it out in today's stress test. I have no warping on multi monitor setup at my friends place, and and no warping in windowed mode on my 27" 16:9 screen. Nor do I have issues in windowed mode on my gf's 24" 16:10 monitor. It's not a hardware issue.

[Karizee]

Try it out in today's stress test. I have no warping on multi monitor setup at my friends place, and and no warping in windowed mode on my 27" 16:9 screen. Nor do I have issues in windowed mode on my gf's 24" 16:10 monitor. It's not a hardware issue.

Hey Nex, could you possibly link a couple screenshots - one to show the game without the prob and one to show it with? That might help some of us understand what the issue is.

[Nexrex]

Hey Nex, could you possibly link a couple screenshots - one to show the game without the prob and one to show it with? That might help some of us understand what the issue is.

I'll try and grab some tonight.

[Queen of Hamsters]

I find the way you phrased your opening sentence pretty hilarious; "I sure won't keep playing a game that does this to me".

I don't understand this shit at all.

You're right there, that's for sure. How about less rabid and more understanding that not everyone's willing to spend money sorting out a game that the developers should be able to sort with the modern tools they've got at hand. Hundreds of other games don't have this problem for some players, so why this one? And to make it clear since you're having difficulties...yes, if I play a game and I feel motion sick from it, then it's the game causing it and thus DOING it to me. Not sure how it's possible to get more obvious than that. You simply read too much into it.

I won't be playing this game until they fix it if I on the 25th experience the same issues as I did during the beta weekends I participated in. That's all and I fail to see why you or anyone else should get so butthurt over that.

On another note;

I've seen someone say that they increased and added camera options in the last BWE, anyone got any info about this? I played the first 2 and then I had the problem, but during the third I didn't have the time so I couldn't see for myself.

[Nexrex]

Not entirely sure what was added when, but the latest changes include the camera can be moved back a bit more than before, also camera position can be moved to the right and the left a bit, for a over the shoulder kind of look.
Imo the camera itself is hugging the ground a bit too much still and ofc there's a lack of a FoV slider of any kind.
As far as other camera issues go, I find the smoothness and the free look camera are fine atm, as well as the amount of zoom available. Some want a first person view, but apart from ease of taking screenshots I don't see the need. But by all means I'm for more options than less.
And a lot of the options are not difficult nor time consuming to add.

[Gorlak]

Field of view does not affect me much, and I don't really care to have one. What I really don't like in fpg's is that you can't feel stuff around you (and that will never be fixable.) So, I'm often shooting at someone, and while I'm doing so, I'm trying to get behind cover. But, I will often hit something, like a box, and not be able to move, and by the time that I either move the character around until it goes back, or I turn around to see what is happening, I'm dead. That's extremely frustrating and is the main downside of FPG's

[Rodpad]

I wish people would stop banging on about camera zoom.

Camera zoom is not FoV.

[Nexrex]

Field of view does not affect me much, and I don't really care to have one. What I really don't like in fpg's is that you can't feel stuff around you (and that will never be fixable.) So, I'm often shooting at someone, and while I'm doing so, I'm trying to get behind cover. But, I will often hit something, like a box, and not be able to move, and by the time that I either move the character around until it goes back, or I turn around to see what is happening, I'm dead. That's extremely frustrating and is the main downside of FPG's

I can understand frustrations. But saying I don't want a feature simply cause it doesn't affect me especially is rude and ignorant.

[Deleted]

How high FOV would be necessary for you to feel comfortable playing a third-person game? Take Skyrim for example, if you play that in third person view rather than first person, how high FOV do you need to not get nauseous?