Anders Behring Breivik, what is going on ?

[Hyve]

21 years = 7670.09 day
People Killed = 77
Total time served per murder = 99.6 Days
insert trolling the justice system meme

I really cannot understand how someone who killed so many will be out on the streets old enough to commit the same crime again.

As said before, remember that is the Maximum Sentence that can be given in Norway. Just like when entering your Date of Birth into a website, they physically can not add anything more then 21 years. That said he has been sentenced with the very real possibility of having that extended. Think of it like a recurring billing plan.

The system only lets you set up a 21 year billing, but later in the year with 10 years remaining, you can always add another 11 years to bring it back to the 21 year total. Essentially this man is not going to ever walk free, as they'll most likely just keep "topping up" his sentence.

[Deleted]

I was watching the footage from the cell (http://www.dbtv.no/?vid=1798005819001) and I realized that I have the same desk in my room

[obdigore]

I was watching the footage from the cell (http://www.dbtv.no/?vid=1798005819001) and I realized that I have the same desk in my room

Are... Are you in Prison?

[Letmesleep]

No. Punishment & Vengeance are two very different things.

No crap? This was the entire point of my post?

To punish a child for stealing, with revoking some of their toys, slapping their wrist or telling them off is one thing.

To steal something back from the child, make them suffer and majorly regret their choice is another.

This...has no relation to anything I said.

[Hyve]

No crap? This was the entire point of my post?



This...has no relation to anything I said.

Sorry - I just re-read your post, I misunderstood you. Between the insane amounts of posts being made and the live stream of the verdict, I am getting confused.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Following this logic, we might as well not punish anyone for anything because it's "just vengeance". Somehow the death penalty is vengeance but stripping someone of their rights and locking them in a cell is not? Vengeance will not give anyone a sense of peace, however, knowing a proportional punishment was dealt out absolutely will. There is a difference between the two. Criminals are punished because A. We need to take dangerous people out of society B. It serves as a deterrent for other would-be criminals, and C. An impartial system prevents the whole world turning to vigilante justice.

By allowing him to live, the government is actually invalidating all the victims' suffering. They are essentially saying, the loss of all this life and all the pain he's caused is equivalent to 21 years in a relatively comfortable cell. In 21 years, those 77 people will still be dead; their families will still miss them. I'm going to invoke Godwin's Law briefly and ask if Hitler deserved to be rehabilitated, or if his crimes were so incredibly heinous that he had lost his right to live? We have to draw a line somewhere or we invalidate pain. What argument could you possibly use to justify this man being able to continue to live his life? Breivik has shown no remorse, and would likely commit the crime again if he could. What happens in 21 years and none of his ideals have been implemented in society? Not only is this man dangerous, he's evil. Save your sympathy for the victims, not the perpetrators. The death penalty is not about vengeance, it's about proportional justice.

The point of putting somebody in prison is to teach them that what they did was wrong so that they can understand that their punishment is deserved. You cannot get that from the death penalty because you kill them in the process.

The government is not invalidating any suffering by allowing him to live. You cannot even compare the crime to the punishment in that way because that's not the fucking point. Are you saying that 77 lives is proportional to 1? If people feel that their suffering is invalidated, that's their own personal problem.

Comparing Hitler to this man in the way that you are is hugely flawed. Hitler was not solely responsible for the deaths of prisoners during WWII. You don't get to blame it all on Hitler. For death to occur in the way that it did, people needed to comply with Hitler's ideas. Everybody who complied with the Nazi party is to also to blame. As for rehabilitating him, yes, if he could truly be rehabilitated.

[Letmesleep]

Sorry - I just re-read your post, I misunderstood you. Between the insane amounts of posts being made and the live stream of the verdict, I am getting confused.

Haha, all good. I was like...in no way shape or form have you responded to my post. Mistakes happen.

[Deleted]

I'm no angel but killing 77 people and showing no regret leaves little doubt that he is an oxygen thief and we'd be better of just putting a bullet in the back of his head. Asking the taxpayer to foot the bill for keeping him locked up in relative luxury? Something has gone wrong somewhere.

[seta-san]

I think you're just picking for a reason to insult people. I was very clear, twice now, that I do not support killing at all, under any conditions, there is always another way. If you want to believe something and read between the lines, good luck.. you can believe what you wish, that however does not give you the right to come and insult me, especially for something that you just made up in your head.

Breivik is a murderer, hes methods were evil but what he tried to accomplish was not. He was doing it for the right reasons, he just did the wrong thing.

he did it in the only method that would get any attention to his message.

[Dezerte]

Following this logic, we might as well not punish anyone for anything because it's "just vengeance". Somehow the death penalty is vengeance but stripping someone of their rights and locking them in a cell is not? Vengeance will not give anyone a sense of peace, however, knowing a proportional punishment was dealt out absolutely will. There is a difference between the two. Criminals are punished because A. We need to take dangerous people out of society B. It serves as a deterrent for other would-be criminals, and C. An impartial system prevents the whole world turning to vigilante justice.

By allowing him to live, the government is actually invalidating all the victims' suffering. They are essentially saying, the loss of all this life and all the pain he's caused is equivalent to 21 years in a relatively comfortable cell. In 21 years, those 77 people will still be dead; their families will still miss them. I'm going to invoke Godwin's Law briefly and ask if Hitler deserved to be rehabilitated, or if his crimes were so incredibly heinous that he had lost his right to live? We have to draw a line somewhere or we invalidate pain. What argument could you possibly use to justify this man being able to continue to live his life? Breivik has shown no remorse, and would likely commit the crime again if he could. What happens in 21 years and none of his ideals have been implemented in society? Not only is this man dangerous, he's evil. Save your sympathy for the victims, not the perpetrators. The death penalty is not about vengeance, it's about proportional justice.

Both the death penality and prison would be vengeance.

Rehabilitation is not. Problem is our knowledge of human psychology is not nearly as good as it needs to be in order for rehabilitation to be more successful. It's my hope that this field becomes more effective in the future, but the other problem is how to deal with those who seek revenge. Perhaps therapy is also the answer for those people.

If ABB received the death penality it would bring peace to the victims families, but it would not bring back the victims. When it comes down to it you are murdering one person to satisfy other people's need for revenge (peace).

I think this is a barbaric justice system, and we should be more civilized. Just goes to show that we're really not all that civilized as we'd like to think we are.

[Hyve]

I'm no angel but killing 77 people and showing no regret leaves little doubt that he is an oxygen thief and we'd be better of just putting a bullet in the back of his head. Asking the taxpayer to foot the bill for keeping him locked up in relative luxury? Something has gone wrong somewhere.

I'll raise this point again. Where do we set the bar though of this action?

Is the murder of 10 people enough to make you eligible for the Death Sentence? What about 5? 1?

Killing people, because they killed people is not going to solve anything. I'm indifferent about the Death Sentence. I see the value it brings to know the person is dead, and that may ease the passing of the situation for some, but is this a good solution for a 21st Century world?

[Deleted]

So many clueless people posting here I just HAD to log in and correct them.

Breivik did not get off with 'just' 21 years. 21 years is the maximum sentence someone can get at once in Norway. It's just how their system works. Thing is, that sentence can be extended for as long as a judge seems fit, meaning Breivik can get multiple consecutive 21 year convictions. After a 21 year sentence is done the case is examined again and then the judge decides wether ot not to extend the sentence. Since Breiviks' killing spree is one of the (if not THE) biggest crimes in Norway's history I'm 99,9% sure a judge will remember this in 21 years and extend the sentence.
This is EXACTLY the same as giving someone a 50 year old sentence but releasing him sooner. It's just the other way around.
In the USA people get ridiculously long sentences (eg: 5 life time sentences etc?) but they have shots at being released early for good conduct.

Please don't post about how bad a country's judicial system is without doing any research.

[Kakokun]

That just proves he is insane and the verdict is wrong.

Insane=/=Criminally Insane.

There's actually a difference.

[Hyve]

he did it in the only method that would get any attention to his message.

That is where his actions become extreme. The Islamic / Muslim life style will comprise 30% of Europe by 2020, something he was obviously scared by. I don't defend his actions, they were vile, but his fears and concerns were justified.

I'm not opposed to the Islamic Faith, Muslim Lifestyle but to have Europe "converted" in such a small space of time is worrying, and my personal beliefs on all religions make the situation even worse.

---------- Post added 2012-08-24 at 10:45 AM ----------

So many clueless people posting here I just HAD to log in and correct them.

Breivik did not get off with 'just' 21 years. 21 years is the maximum sentence someone can get at once in Norway. It's just how their system works. Thing is, that sentence can be extended for as long as a judge seems fit, meaning Breivik can get multiple consecutive 21 year convictions. After a 21 year sentence is done the case is examined again and then the judge decides wether ot not to extend the sentence.
This is EXACTLY the same as giving someone a 50 year old sentence but releasing him sooner. It's just the other way around.
In the USA people get ridiculously long sentences (eg: 5 life time sentences etc?) but they have shots at being released early for good conduct.

Please don't post about how bad a country's judicial system is without doing any research.

Indeed. I don't think people realise you can "Top Up" the sentence when needed. He could have 1 year left, and the Judges decide to add another 20 years onto his sentence to take him back to 21 years (the maximum sentence).

It is impossible to give him more then 21 years in one go, but you can top up to a maximum of 21 years.

[Letmesleep]

The point of putting somebody in prison is to teach them that what they did was wrong so that they can understand that their punishment is deserved. You cannot get that from the death penalty because you kill them in the process.

Agreed, and jailing someone is often enough of a punishment. Some may learn their lesson and live productive lives afterwards. I absolutely believe you make light of murder when you allow someone to commit it and not ask them to receive a proportional punishment. I'd rather not go into all the shades of grey with murder though such as "well he was molested multiple times by the guy he killed and blah blah blah". Motive, remorse, and the situation in which murder happened all play a part in the meting out of punishments. I don't believe it to be as black and white as murder = death sentence. This guy killed 77 people though without a second thought, and is proud of his actions.

The government is not invalidating any suffering by allowing him to live. You cannot even compare the crime to the punishment in that way because that's not the fucking point. Are you saying that 77 lives is proportional to 1? If people feel that their suffering is invalidated, that's their own personal problem.

This is kinda my point. Lesson learned or not, this man has committed unspeakable crimes and nothing he could ever do will pay for them. I believe there are things you can do that should amount to the forfeiting of your own life; killing 77 people is one of those things. The entire mentality of "if people feel invalidated, that's their problem" speaks of a disconnect. You have already disconnected from their pain. The human element is gone for you. Allowing him to hang out on the internet under supervision is absolutely an invalidation of his victims' pain.

Comparing Hitler to this man in the way that you are is hugely flawed. Hitler was not solely responsible for the deaths of prisoners during WWII. You don't get to blame it all on Hitler. For death to occur in the way that it did, people needed to comply with Hitler's ideas. Everybody who complied with the Nazi party is to also to blame. As for rehabilitating him, yes, if he could truly be rehabilitated.

Well, you obviously can't see the name Hitler without drawing the conclusion that someone is drawing a direct comparison. I felt I made it pretty clear that I was only using him as an example of people whose crimes were so heinous that death was the only morally right way to deal with them. I think you just lost credibility claiming he deserved a cell though. I feel claiming there's nothing that justifies the death penalty is naive, and sides with evil more than it does good. That's just my opinion though.

[Xarkan]

Insane=/=Criminally Insane.

There's actually a difference.

Yes.. there is..

There is also a difference between completely serious and halfway joking though

[Anakso]

I'm confused about how he even has the possibility of pleading innocent if the description you gave of him is accurate in saying "Confessed perpetrator" If he confessed, why can he plead innocent?

[Letmesleep]

Both the death penality and prison would be vengeance.

Rehabilitation is not. Problem is our knowledge of human psychology is not nearly as good as it needs to be in order for rehabilitation to be more successful. It's my hope that this field becomes more effective in the future, but the other problem is how to deal with those who seek revenge. Perhaps therapy is also the answer for those people.

You've stopped making sense. I didn't think this was the case at first, but now you ARE arguing for no penalties or consequences for crime. I'm sorry, that's not how the world works.

If ABB received the death penality it would bring peace to the victims families, but it would not bring back the victims. When it comes down to it you are murdering one person to satisfy other people's need for revenge (peace).

Killing someone =/= murder. Only children with black and white mentality see no difference between the two. Whether you want to admit it or not, knowing justice has been carried out when someone has wronged you does bring a sense of peace. Please don't act like this guy's victims don't deserve it, either.

[Xarkan]

I'm confused about how he even has the possibility of pleading innocent if the description you gave of him is accurate in saying "Confessed perpetrator" If he confessed, why can he plead innocent?

I think he was basically arguing justifiable homicide

[seta-san]

That is where his actions become extreme. The Islamic / Muslim life style will comprise 30% of Europe by 2020, something he was obviously scared by. I don't defend his actions, they were vile, but his fears and concerns were justified.

I'm not opposed to the Islamic Faith, Muslim Lifestyle but to have Europe "converted" in such a small space of time is worrying, and my personal beliefs on all religions make the situation even worse.


---------- Post added 2012-08-24 at 10:45 AM ----------



Indeed. I don't think people realise you can "Top Up" the sentence when needed. He could have 1 year left, and the Judges decide to add another 20 years onto his sentence to take him back to 21 years (the maximum sentence).

It is impossible to give him more then 21 years in one go, but you can top up to a maximum of 21 years.

norway and europe for that matter needs two things
-A massive deportation of all non-europeans. Norway is an island, a small country, they can do it.
-massively bump up it's indigenous birth rate.