It feels so grindy.

[Deleo]

Greg Street, making kids dumber since 2008!

Gave me a good laugh.

OT. I've given up on MMOs all together until something actually happens in that genre.

[Rooflesstoofless]

-Use scouts. They give the story behind the areas before you visit them and continue the story further through completing hearts and dynamic events.

-Many of the DE's have several parts to them. If you are just running off right after finishing the first part of a DE you might be missing out on a lot of the story. If you see a group of NPCs standing around talking after a DE finishes that's a good indication there might be more about to happen. I constantly see people run over when they get the orange circle on their map but they scatter as soon as its done so I've done DE's where the first phase has a dozen people, but the second phase has two.

[Demithio]

As much as I have been having fun with the game, I have to admit it is becoming somewhat monotonous. IMO it needs another element, something to glue it together. Most likely it needs a moderately sized traditional quest system added into the dynamic system to give it structure. It needs a bit of linearity combined with the dynamic aspect.

[Gandrake]

So yeah, I bought GW2. Played nearly half a day today and you know, I don't really get the whole "redefining the genre"

it's called "hype" and quoting fanboys.

The selling point of Guild Wars 2 without even looking into the game at all is that it is worth more than any console game and doesn't have a monthly fee.

PvP oriented players may be satisfied with the game, but the lack of appealing PvE content is extremely apparent. The only thing the game has going for it are dynamic events and as far as the mechanical functionality of questing goes, is an experience every MMO should offer, but lacks characters who are memorable.

No one remembers the first npc you turned your quest into. None of them do anything to make themselves seem like they are individual units with a personality. I feel like, in the beginning, some of the personal story quests seem promising, but just bomb out by being anti-climactic.

[Deleted]

it's called "hype" and quoting fanboys.

The selling point of Guild Wars 2 without even looking into the game at all is that it is worth more than any console game and doesn't have a monthly fee.

PvP oriented players may be satisfied with the game, but the lack of appealing PvE content is extremely apparent. The only thing the game has going for it are dynamic events and as far as the mechanical functionality of questing goes, is an experience every MMO should offer, but lacks characters who are memorable.

No one remembers the first npc you turned your quest into. None of them do anything to make themselves seem like they are individual units with a personality. I feel like, in the beginning, some of the personal story quests seem promising, but just bomb out by being anti-climactic.

Exactly how I felt about it and its why I don't play it any more. The zones are okay, not great, they copy quite a lot throughout each zone (mobs, props etc). The events did feel pretty grindy just because they were so artificial; Walk into an area and... oh look! a bandit just spawned out of nowhere that we have to kill!

The worst part of the gameplay for me was the abilities. So few and far between and the combat felt really empty with a lot of auto attacking. All you can do when you run out of CDs is run around in circles and dodge a few times and hope you get lucky (most of the mobs you fight don't have a clear attack animation to dodge which makes dodging pretty useless imo).

Pretty disappointing really.

[schippie]

Gave me a good laugh.

OT. I've given up on MMOs all together until something actually happens in that genre.

Problem is there is nothign really they can do..

Yes they can remove the quest they can remove the levels the gear etc. but then their is no reason to play it. If you cut out everything basic about an MMORPG. Whats left then? is their even anything you can do different? In my opinion you cant. The next big leap i see comming in the next 10-20 year is the cloud. And what i mean by that is the fact that i think we will get far more graphic intensive mmorpgs. But we wont have to have the tech in house to run it. But the server runs it for us.

it's called "hype" and quoting fanboys.

The selling point of Guild Wars 2 without even looking into the game at all is that it is worth more than any console game and doesn't have a monthly fee.

PvP oriented players may be satisfied with the game, but the lack of appealing PvE content is extremely apparent. The only thing the game has going for it are dynamic events and as far as the mechanical functionality of questing goes, is an experience every MMO should offer, but lacks characters who are memorable.

No one remembers the first npc you turned your quest into. None of them do anything to make themselves seem like they are individual units with a personality. I feel like, in the beginning, some of the personal story quests seem promising, but just bomb out by being anti-climactic.

Agree on a few points not all, while you dont have this feeling in WoW either you dont remember most of the NPC.. though after so many years you can dream which quest each and every one offers :P
And i honestly believe.. the bigger problem is now a days. We have a few groups of MMO players:

- Playing one game for a long time (even for fun trying other ones)
- Stopped playing a game and looking for something new
- Completely stopped playing

And especially the second group. I dont know if they even themselfs know what they are looking for anymore. Sometimes i think if you end up in group 2, and cant find anything you like in the huge MMO base that is their now. You really should be thinking about taking a break, or just quit all together. MMORPGs are not going to change anymore even if we want them. They are a set of checkboxes of which any mmorpg being created picks out a few. The reason they all have one goal keep people playing.

For example in my case:
If i dont like MoP i will stop playing MMORPGs. Not even going to bother with moving to another one. I invested what 2 whole years of my life in a game.. Nothing can make me do that again.

[Ishu]

I think it's a matter of opinion. Personally, I feel like a well-executed trinity game is more complex and more fun, mostly because of the control available. To me, healing and tanking competently is more interesting than dodging attacks and raising dead people from down states every 2 seconds.

You say that a trinity system is more fun because of the control you have. But in a trinity system the only one with control is the tank, everyone else just tags along. In GW2 everyone has ways to control the fight, and everyone is required to use them (at least in dungeons). I feel that everyone puts too much emphasis on the dodge system. It's not meant to be the primary way to avoid damage, it's meant to be a way to get out if you make a mistake. If you use your conditions properly the fights become a lot more manageable, and a lot more fun. But everyone has to do it, one person can't do it alone like in a trinity system.

[Seolla]

As much as I have been having fun with the game, I have to admit it is becoming somewhat monotonous. IMO it needs another element, something to glue it together. Most likely it needs a moderately sized traditional quest system added into the dynamic system to give it structure. It needs a bit of linearity combined with the dynamic aspect.

You mean like Heart quests and Personal Story quests?

[Deleted]

You mean like Heart quests and Personal Story quests?

I think he means story based, not just "feed my cows". Something in between the story and the not-related hearts.

[Deleted]

Alright.

1st: Grind, like many other things, is subjective and connected to "fun". If you're having fun it doesn't feel like a grind. That's the most basic explanation of the term I can come up with so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm having fun with GW2 which makes the leveling alot less of a grind for me even though it technically is a grind. Well everything is a grind. You could argue that getting up in the morning is a grind, working is a grind, travelling is a grind, working out is a grind, watching TV is a grind. And so on. So yes it is a grind, but for me it's a fun grind which....doesn't make it a grind for me.

The game is evolutionary yes and not revolutionary as people have pointed out before. That ArenaNet has lately advertised differently is disappointing but understandable.
The mechanics of the game isn't evolutionary in themselves, most have been seen previously in other games. The DE's essentially have their origin in WAR and Rift, but can someone honestly say it was well made back then? The WAR ones were bareboned at the best of times, even though I remember really enjoying them back with my Witch Elf. The Rift ones are very samey and though they may be somewhat random, if you've faced one you've faced all.
The DE's in GW2 are not random and yes they are placed to go the exact same route every time they show up and technically they can be mapped out entirely, but who would've really thought differently? It's virtually impossible making entirely unique ones or would be infinitely complex if they showed up randomly across the world. Also they are dynamic because they dynamically scale depending on the amounts of players participating and that the game dynamically scales you to an appropriate (well that's the idea is not always working out well) level to (once more the idea is) give you an appropriate challenge.

WvWvW, the concept has been seen before, no one can claim otherwise. But it hasn't been fleshed out in it's entirety to this scale before. It's my favorite addition to GW2 and honestly if the game was exactly like WoW but just with this thing tagged along I'd play it simply because of that. Not sure what it makes me. It's not perfect and will be unbalanced but it's so much fun with a group.

Rewarding everything. A pretty simple concept once more, a straightforward thing. It's been seen to various degrees before but it's such a simple yet brilliant little concept to reward exploration. Actually most things the game has added conceptwise seem to reward just that, exploration. Making it worth your bother to walk away from stuff to just see what's elsewhere. Not everyone's cup of tea but definitely mine.

To make a long story just a tab bit shorter one could make the argument that most of the concepts has been done, one way or another, before. One might even argue that none of the concepts are even evolutionary. But I'd like to argue that it makes a good job in putting all those individual concepts of other games into the same game. That's the evolutionary part of the game. I'm sure there was a rather unknown MMORPG that did something similar some 7-8 years ago with 95% of the mechanics and concepts taken from other MMOs and wrapped up in a well produced package. If only I could remember the name of that game.

[Solidito]

I admit it feels grindy, i'm not going to let the rose-tinted glasses blind my view. Everyone has a go at you in this thread because you don't agree with them, pretty silly really. The game is fantastic for what it is, and i've been playing it every day since release trying a variety of different things. I enjoy many things about the game but the leveling does seem quite grindy.

I won't quit because of it, leveling in any game feels grindy, even Skyrim. Some events are awesome but it still comes down to 'collect this, defend this person, kill these enemies'. Everynow and then you do get a different quest though, like one where you go invisible and have to stealth around. Which was pretty cool!

[reemi]

I agree it feel SO grindy...

Those events, quests, etc are so repetitive.

I had LOT of fun at the beginning but now I'm about to quit...

[Sylvanie]

Every Single MMO ever made is nothing but a grind. Thats the only way they can retain subs. In a single player game once you beat the last boss its over and has no replay value. But a MMO must retain replay value or else it loses money. DAoC had realm ranks as its grind. Everquest had AA points as its grind. WoW has faction, honor, and valor points as its grind. Its impossible to make a game that doesnt have a grind or else it would end as is the case with console RPGs. The grind is what keeps everyone playing MMOs and without it the genre would die off.

Good boardgames don't need a grind to retain replay value. The trick is to make the gameplay itself compelling enough.

MMOs have had replayability problems for a couple of reasons.

One, gear progression constantly makes content obsolete. Content becomes boring when you trivialize it by outgearing it.

Two, content tends to be very predictable and scripted, so after you've mastered an encounter, it quickly loses replay value (Chess and Go suffer from that for the opening moves, too, where both players just go through the motions until either does something unusual). Combined with a fairly rotational gameplay style, this also makes content feel repetitive. (For all the hate for the faction champions encounter in Trial of the Crusader, this was one problem it didn't suffer from.)

These problems are not impossible to overcome. If it remains fun to do the same thing more than once (as for boardgames), for its own sake, and not for the rewards, then that goes a long way towards making a game replayable without a grind.

[Davisdoesdallas]

If people are not allowed to make comparisons how is it people are allowed to rate a game?

.

this made me lol irl.



How you rate the game is on it's own merits that this game brings. argumentum ad ignorantiam

[Elim Garak]

There's an entire thread on end game, must I copy paste that here?

That was a rhetorical question. But thanks for dodging it.

[Collected]

The zones are okay, not great, they copy quite a lot throughout each zone (mobs, props etc). The events did feel pretty grindy just because they were so artificial; Walk into an area and... oh look! a bandit just spawned out of nowhere that we have to kill!

Maybe we view the word 'grind' differently but for me, grind is having to kill 40 of the same mob to collect 30 items from them. Or 50 mobs if RNG denies you a good drop rate. Having to do upwards of 100 quests before moving to the next zone. That is grind in my eyes.

So far (I've done 1.5 zones in GW2) i've never felt like i'm 'grinding' experience. I move to a new area.. I see an event, I go take part in it. This more often than not also means i'm contributing to the local heart quest. I'll finish that off, then go buy the upgrade that NPC is offering. Then i'll move on a bit.. and find another different event. Or i'll stick around where the first event ended and do 'part 2' of the event if there is one.

Sometimes i'll hear someone shout that a world boss is up.. and i'll go help with that. And find an event on the way back. All while this is happening, XP is flowing into my bar. I don't even look at the XP bar because I don't even feel like i'm grinding XP. I ding without even thinking about it. That, in my view, is very far from 'grindy'. But I accept my perception of grind may differ. But honestly.. i'm struggling to see how an MMO could be less grindy. What are you hoping to see that GW2 doesn't offer?

The worst part of the gameplay for me was the abilities. So few and far between and the combat felt really empty with a lot of auto attacking.

Try an elementalist. They have five traits (Fire, Air, Earth, Water, Arcane) and each one offers different abilities.. so you can switch between them to suit different situations. For example I might switch to water if I want to heal a group.. or earth if I want to do some AOE and DOTS.. or fire if I just want to do DPS etc etc.. there is a LOT to do and if you're just sat there auto attacking mobs, you're not getting the max out of the combat system. I'm not sure how other professions are but elementalist certainly doesn't feel empty to me.

[jtgizmo]

So yeah, I bought GW2. Played nearly half a day today and you know, I don't really get the whole "redefining the genre" they were prophesizing. The game looks and feels very polished, and the graphics and attention to detail are absolutely stunning. Having said that, I feel extremely "meh" about world events. The idea was that they were supposed to make the world feel alive, but so far I honestly can't say that I get that feeling. Maybe this is only true for low levels, but they feel very simplistic and repetitive. But the worst part is that the events fail to actually connect me to the world.

Lets say I'm running somewhere and the event pops up. I see some monsters attacking some place (or maybe defending some place) and I'm invited to kill them. But I don't understand neither 1) what that place is 2) who are the bad guys 3) why are they attacking it 4) why should I even care? Furthermore, events seem to happen very frequently, and the same event always happens in the same place, so in the end they really just feel like good old "bear asses" quests that you just don't need to specifically pick up. The only difference is that you have to hunt for them in the world, instead of grabbing them in the closest village. And since most events have very simplistic objectives, it just feels like all I'm doing is grinding monsters.

Just an example - in low Charr zone there's a place with old overgrown statue of some ancient deity. When you approach, you get a random event to kill monsters near the statue. That's basically it. Only because I played GW1, I remember this place, and the statue, and I kinda know what's going on. If I didn't - it would just be a simple "hey, there's some monster here, kill them. Done? Thanks, here's some xp, keep going".

I do like the personal quest, and I would most likely continue to play until 80 just to see the beautiful zones and play through the personal story, I just really wish there were more stories in this game.

scouts, scouts, scouts - use them if you wish to know the background of the areas.

[Alilei32]

Maybe I've missed something - why is everyone focused on whether or not the game is revolutionary instead of whether or not the game is fun?

Because people have come up with the logic that fun doesnt matter and all new MMOs must be compared to WoW for some reason when determining if they were good or not. Also before WoW was released when everyone was still playing UO,EQ, and DAoC how did you determine if the game was good or not? But I guess people will always be idiots and will forever use the WoW-meter when judging new games.

[Boogums]

grind is subjective...something you feel grind maybe I find it fun while something I feel grind you find it fun...for me grind is dailies. I have to do it every day, the same exactly quests...Now the game doesn't only have events..you can gather materials and get decent xp, you can explore points in the world, explore the cities and get decent XP. Craft your gear and you get levels.

But you just compared an end-game experience to a leveling experience.

[jtgizmo]

It's hardly a reason to stop. You could get the meaning from the rest.
But I can break it down to you:
1. "No quest givers" - is not an evolution

What is it then? religious?

---------- Post added 2012-09-02 at 04:10 PM ----------

Depends what you like.. if you like epic 80 player battles all clumped up together in the middle of a map. With spell effect flying all around you. And that for hours and hours and hours long. Then wvwvw doesnt compare to av (old), if you want a more tactical play then wvwvw is better. Though they really should offer a better way of spawning.. or offer players the option when sticking to the roads (and not in combat) to move 200% faster.

fights for stonemist can involve more than 80 players vs 80 players that goes on for hours, whilst smaller battles rage all around them

Upgrade keeps then if you want WP's