I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Daedius]

Arrogant OP - hardcore raiders already got their Heroic raids, who gives a damn if casuals can get themselves LFR loot ?

Fact is the LFR system makes for a lot more happy players [Casuals, non-raiders] than the fewer special snowflakes, such as yourself, that bitch about it.

I, myself, am a hardcore raider - and I couldn't really care less of people getting 'free loot' from the LFR. So fucking what? It doesn't affect me, nor you, in any shape or form whatsoever. So stop concerning yourself over petty things!

[Ghandy]

I find it pathetic that Blizz feels they need to dumb down content for the majority. If you can't play the game, don't play the game. Its as simple as that. You NEVER saw developers release new versions of any game that was easier for the people who had difficulties beating it. I think the platform that the game gets progressively harder as you get to the end is superior to one flat difficulty or multiple difficulties. That is how raids should be. In another defense of returning raiding to what it should be, pvp. I don't get 3000 rating handed to me. In fact VERY few see 2400 rating. Why don't we start off with 2000 rating. Everyone should be able to see all of the content we payed for. Im tired of paying a sub for people to see 3000 rating when I dont. In fact give me every mount, pet, achiev, title, piece of gear, take restrictions off gear, so I can evenly enjoy every part of the game im paying for.

Wow. How mature of you. "I'm tired of not being special." Same argument, over and over and over and over. I'm surprised raiders haven't developed spam bots yet to post that same complaint on every WoW forum that currently exists online. They might as well, it's pretty much that repetitively used anyway.

First of all, Blizz didn't dumb down the content for the majority, they made a VERSION of the content that was dumbed down for the majority to partake in. There's a difference, because the original content is still hard. Second, if Blizzard took your "if they can't play the game, don't play the game" approach they'd be the worst businessmen ever, which they aren't. It's not a single player game, it's played by millions of people, and that fact is the biggest reason that you are still getting content at all. So by suggesting they punish people that aren't gods gift to mmo's (unlike yourself) you're also condemning yourself to less content.

Second, raiding and PvP are two different things. Any average player has always been able to see all of the pvp content. Anyone can go into any battle ground and if they play enough arenas they will probably see every one of them. So, your argument clearly has nothing to do with what you get to do, but what you are rewarded with for doing it. You don't have a problem with people seeing the content, you have a problem with the fact that they are being rewarded in similar ways for seeing it. As you plainly stated "Give me every mount, pet, achiev, title, piece of gear, take restrictions off gear so I can enjoy every part of the game that I pay for". Your focus is on the rewards. You don't think casuals should be able to run an easier version of a raid and get rewarded for it, in any way, even if the rewards are not even as good as what a real raider can acquire. It's not good enough that it's worse, it has to be so inferior as to bring to that awe inspiring place of having gear that no one else can even dream of coming close to acquiring. It's the same tired song and dance. If you want to feel that way, fine. But don't hide behind a facade of actually having a compelling argument, just say what you mean and be done with it.

[gamingmuscle]

Naimc the problem is that blizzard reduce raids to such versions that there is no goal anymore. Its only server first etc, in tbc you progressed from easy to harder raids but these days its everyone straight to the new raid. There is no excitement in that its just plainly stupid.

Only a couple encounters in TBC were actually hard mechanic wise. The rest were mechanically easy and only gained any kind of difficulty from over tuning. And over tuning is boring.

[Grogo]

Sorry, but this is, by definition, elitist. It is a question of supply and demand coupled with pure jealousy. The way it stands right now, raiders have access to rewards and difficulty levels that allow them to raid just as they did in the past. If there aren't enough people motivated to spend that kind of energy/effort into the game, then it is clearly not what the people who play the game "want." If however, you find that you are able to scrounge up the folks necessary to raid in the manner you want, again, there is absolutely no reason not to let casuals SEE the content and get rewards LESSER to the ones you get for Normal and Heroic versions of the raids.

Pure and simple elitism.

I was a hard-core raider through Wrath, then I got a job which prevented me from devoting as much time to the game. I welcome LFR wholeheartedly because it allowed me to participate and not just see videos of the end of the expansion. I fail to see how that in any way affects you other than immature jealousy.

Grow up.

I call bullshit. You would not do LFR if you did not get gear, because you have no time and want the content brought down to your life style. re-read my post about what I said about gear.

You call me immature and jealous because I have stated I want the BC model back...then have the nerve to tell me to grow up? Really?

[Vanisari]

here is my simple question

if there is three difficulties, LFR, Normal, Heroic, right? Heroic is essentially what you want, it would be your one difficulty, the end goal, what people strive to get better for, so they can experience it, not just do ezmode stuff, correct? okay, then tell me... why can`t you pretend that is the case now? LFR, normal, they don`t have to effect you at all, except how much you choose to let them.



back in TBC, the game was still GROWING, people were still LEARNING about the game, at some point some things in the world reach a point where growth is no longer possible in large scale. i was fortunate enough to raid hardcore and complete content, but I know the majority of people were stuck in kara the ENTIRE expansion, i know people who were stuck on lurker and could only farm loot reaver. the numbers didn`t increase because of the model that was in place, in fact if i had a choice now "would you play this game now or years ago in TBC" my answer would be now.

Its because they don't want other people to be able to see the same content they do, even though they don't because its not heroic. People can't seem to accept that there are people playing the game who would like to raid but can't dedicate 3-4 raiding nights a week to it.

[Ghandy]

And I think you should check your reading comprehension skills. The poster was against the OP's argument.

Yes, I just realised that, I quoted the wrong post and have since fixed it. Sincere apologies on that one.

[Grogo]

Arrogant OP - hardcore raiders already got their Heroic raids, who gives a damn if casuals can get themselves LFR loot ?

Fact is the LFR system makes for a lot more happy players [Casuals, non-raiders] than the fewer special snowflakes, such as yourself, that bitch about it.

I, myself, am a hardcore raider - and I couldn't really care less of people getting 'free loot' from the LFR. So fucking what? It doesn't affect me, nor you, in any shape or form whatsoever. So stop concerning yourself over petty things!

Liking BC model of raiding makes me arrogant? That makes no sense what so ever.

[Deleted]

Give the raid back to the raiders.

Give raids back to the raiders.

Give back raiding to the raiders

You really wanted this message to get through huh?

[Vanisari]

I call bullshit. You would not do LFR if you did not get gear, because you have no time and want the content brought down to your life style. re-read my post about what I said about gear.

You call me immature and jealous because I have stated I want the BC model back...then have the nerve to tell me to grow up? Really?

I know tons of people who do LFR to see the lore. Hell, there is absolutely nothing that I need from LFR and I've done it over 20 times on this toon alone, and still do it every once in a while when I am bored.

[Alvito]

I already said give you the same gear in 5 mans. I am not trying to make you feel like that dude in comic book adds that has sand kicked on them on the beach. But remember, he came back a raider and kicked that guy's ass.

Wtf are you talking about? Sorry dude but if you are using a game for your sense of self or a feeling of pride then you are in trouble. I couldn't care less about gear or where you get it from, the only items I don't see in the game are due to horrible rng not from not killing the bosses to see it. Again if you are really worried about other ppl fighting things that you seem to think you are good enough to fight then you really aren't that great at it. Worry about you do and find fun however you can, let others do their thing. It is funny that you think ppl that don't agree with you on this aren't raiding heroics or further ahead of you on things. As I said before the only ppl that seem to really care if others can see all or most content are the ones that need those same buffs or nerfs they bitch about to see it too, then get upset when the server 17th raid jumps over them. You might want to take a look at my sig quote from Cats Cradle it really sums this up well.

[djack210]

What's wrong with several raid difficulties?

Several things are wrong with multiple raid difficulties.

1. The developers have to spend a lot of time and energy devoted to content that very few people actually appreciate or care about (normal mode.)
2. Because of the time they need to spend developing all these different difficulties, we can't get the large-scale epic zone raids like what were present in BC (and even Ulduar- very epic.)

One of the material forces that drives people to subscribe, play, and raid are their in-game idols. Guilds like Paragon, Blood Legion, KinRaiders, etc., are all looked up to by raiders of every skill level. These highly skilled guilds will disappear if the content gets too easy at the top, or simply too boring. That, my friends, would be the end of WoW.

Casual players, what do you want out of WoW? Really... If you are an ex-hardcore raider, you stopped raiding at that level for a reason. Now you want World of Warcraft to change just for you? You want to raid hardcore, but not really put out hardcore time and effort? You are what's wrong in the real world, too. Paying your subscription fee allows you the chance to see the entire game content. For the top tier of raiding, you SHOULD have to join a hardcore guild.

What's next? You want to be able to complete raids by yourself and not have to even join a group? I mean, its your $15/mo., why should you have to play by the current raid rules?

Stop QQ'ing about how busy your life is. This game still means something to those of us that enjoy playing it at all levels. If you are casual and cannot raid the hardest of the core, don't take your frustration out on those of us who love and respect how challenging the hardcore scene is. You have the opportunity to do what we do, you just choose not to. If you want to complain about not getting your money's worth about something, go QQ about social security.

[Daedius]

Liking BC model of raiding makes me arrogant? That makes no sense what so ever.

Yes, you are arrogant when you ask for the removal of Raids [LFR] from "casuals"...

[Arrjaydubya]

That's a dumb idea. Major game progression and lore progression happens in the raids. It's unfair to not let people see that. I played WC3 many times. If I didn't get to see the full end of Arthas, I would have been pretty pissed. Even with their whole cinematic solution, it's that epic feeling of being in that raid and being a part of the final fight.

I was quite angry not being able to see Illidans end, even though it was a terrible and needless one. Not many people got to.

Stick to your heroics and be happy.

I don't understand people's mentality here. How is it unfair that you don't get to see content that you either: a) Don't have free time enough to put in the time needed to progress through said content, or b) Don't play the game well enough to get access to said content.
Last I checked people pretty much know what they are signing up for when they play an mmo. If you want to pvp, you need to be good at pvp. If you want to raid then you need to have the time and also be good enough at your class to get into guilds that clear content. I don't recall on the box it saying: "Welcome all people who play C.o.D. and farmville" and by that I mean people who have shot attention spans or not time enough in their day to play a game that you need to put time into. Claiming you arnt getting your moneys worth cause you didn't get to kill lich king due to your RL commitments or what have you is BS. People knew what an mmo was when they bought it. If you don't have the time to put into a game to reach whatever it is at the end of the game everyone is pushing for, then I guess that game isn't for you. Just cause most of us that raid actually have the time to do it, or make time for it, doesn't make us elitist. People wanting access to raids and all the glory of raiding when they don't have the time or means are just being lil brats who want to have their cake and eat it too. When I chose to play this game back in BC I knew what came with it, if I wanted to be a raider I would have to work things around it. That was my choice. If you don't have the time to play the game your decision should be to play a different game, not cry til they change it to accommodate you. Just my two pennies.

[namelessone]

I keep seeing posts about less people doing raids, that that part is becoming smaller within wow, that we have 3 versions of raids for those who want to do it easy-mode, etc etc etc. Lots of opinions.

This is - statistically - not true. Larger percentage of people raids today than did at any other point in WoW history.

[Grogo]

Only a couple encounters in TBC were actually hard mechanic wise. The rest were mechanically easy and only gained any kind of difficulty from over tuning. And over tuning is boring.

But you didn't have rehashed bosses with an ability added and people loved it.

[namelessone]

If you don't have the time to play the game your decision should be to play a different game, not cry til they change it to accommodate you. Just my two pennies.

Well, a lot of people did and Blizzard didn't like that, and decided that those people are more valuable to them then people like you. I think it's ultimately up to the developers to decide what kind of people do they want to play their game, not players. By the way, why don't you follow your own logic and if you want hard content that requires a lot of time and effort to progress - why don't you go play other game?

[Grogo]

Yes, you are arrogant when you ask for the removal of Raids [LFR] from "casuals"...

Explain that. You can raid...no is stopping you. You can't always get what you want but sometimes you get what you need....man.

[Shampro]

People are still fucking crying about LFR? even though They still have thier Heroic and more difficult Raids? Getting incredibly tired of these forums. Im in a Heroic raiding guild, we dont give a shit what other people killed in LFR, WHY do you need to be so fucking selfish? and dont allow ppl that cant devote time to heroic progression to participate in a way easier difficulty but recieve waaaaaaay worst awards? What is your problem?

This is elitism, if you say otherwise you accept that you are just THAT. Stop beeing selfish. This community just gets worst by the second.

[Alvito]

I call bullshit. You would not do LFR if you did not get gear, because you have no time and want the content brought down to your life style. re-read my post about what I said about gear.

You call me immature and jealous because I have stated I want the BC model back...then have the nerve to tell me to grow up? Really?

BC raiding was a breeze so lets not use that as the template of giving things back to the raiders. I started playing the game Right before the ZA patch in BC and as a semi clueless player new to the game cleared Hyjal and BT before the summer started just a few months later. I did that playing on a very slowly progressing server too. Doing that had nothing to do with skill or anything I just had a schedule that match a pretty good raids time and got in. The only thing BC raids did prior to the removal of them was creating time sink quests to get ppl into new raids. Being able to do those things had nothing to do with skill or ability just a willingness to dump time into the game. Grinding rep runing dungeon quests for keys and things of that nature aren't skill based at all. Going back to that doesn't give raiding to raiders it gives raiding to ppl with bucket loads of free time.

[Meriadox]

You raider elitists need to stop being so ignorant. The game isnt just for you, you arent paying for it yourself. Im sick and tired of people saying shit like casuals shouldnt raid this or should just stick to this etc. We ALL pay for the game to experience ALL the content however the hell we want to experience it. God I just dont understand the mentality of you elitists.

weak argument, since you DONT experience ALL the content, which in the ALL includes heroic raids and pvp elite, so ya weak argument, you just experience a low quality raid with no dificulty at all, and casuals shouldnt raid, because in this game you pay and you should experience what you can make the time for or the effort for, not just everythign at a low level of quality just to see it, just an opinion and based on the fact that this game started to lose a lot and I mean a lot of subscribers since the game became to be what people like you wanted it to be, no coincidence vanilla WoW and BC were the best part of the history of WoW, because it was hard and you had to make an effort.