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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Denying people the ability to raid because you want to be special is elitism.
    I don't see denying people the ability to raid if they are incompetent enough to adapt and learn as elitism. That's just how raiding works, if a player does not perform well enough because he didn't learn his class, then no he should not be raiding. It takes less than 30 minutes to fully read up on a class or a fight to have a basic understanding of what will go on so you can minimize your chance of fucking up, but I would wager a guess that not many people outside of heroics do that anymore as the fight is so stupidly easy.

  2. #202
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by gamingmuscle View Post
    Ummm does ferrari only produce cars that only 5% of its customer base can afford/would want? No. They may have exceptions where only 100 of this car will be produced and if you're unable to spend $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ you're outta luck. But that is a subset, that is their heroic mode. It is not their entire product line.
    well that'd be tough luck then, just because you can't afford or achieve something doesn't mean something should be altered to accommodate lower standards.......

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    So tell me how does ferrari manage to stay in business then?
    quality over quantity any day
    Ferrari sells less cars than say Renault, but they're much more expensive. Rich people buy them. Everyone pays the same amount of money for WoW so that comparison really doesn't stand.

  4. #204

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entitus View Post
    Ferrari sells less cars than say Renault, but they're much more expensive. Rich people buy them. Everyone pays the same amount of money for WoW so that comparison really doesn't stand.
    was about a company, any company so why would exclusive stuff not count?

  6. #206
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    I personally think they should keep all 3 difficulty levels. The only thing I ask is that they stop nerfing Heroic content so much that it brings it down to the level of normal mode. That way the casuals can see all of the content they pay for. The hardcore "elitists" still get their desired content without losing that special snowflake feeling.

    You don't see games like Halo or CoD nerfing its legendary/veteran difficulties because you are stuck on hard. Same should apply here IMO.

    *The next comment is my super elitist special snowflake raider comment and is JUST my opinion*
    Using DS as an example. Lets say the 35% nerf was never implemented, if you weren't able to kill H Madness by the time MoP hits then so be it, its heroic mode. Why should they nerf the entire heroic mode by 35% because you aren't good enough to kill half the bosses? You've seen the content you "pay for as casuals" so let the special snowflake minority keep the difficulty that was designed for them.

    Its impossible imo to make a decent analogy using references from outside of gaming...so please stop. "Heroic raiders get mounts and titles " and "We pay to see the content" are also terrible excuses since they are both true for BOTH sides. Dates also mean little imo, most people I know only look up dates on ACPs if they want to shittalk someone, not to oogle at their super early kill date.

    Anyway! The Cutting Edge FoSs in mop should fix most of the issues here. Everyone will kill everything but at least the "hardcore" will have something to show for it that "casuals" cant. Problem solved IMO.
    Last edited by Fearnot; 2012-09-07 at 06:16 PM.

  7. #207
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    Well i could say an IQ test being mandatory for any MMO wouldn't be that bad of a requirement to make sure there is a quality playerbase instead of people who post on official forums why they can't keybind alt+f4( yes this actually happened)
    Yes, and then you would have a niche game (like Rift) with ~500K subs who would bring in crappy revenue. No big editor in his right mind would do that.
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  8. #208
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    Well i could say an IQ test being mandatory for any MMO wouldn't be that bad of a requirement to make sure there is a quality playerbase instead of people who post on official forums why they can't keybind alt+f4( yes this actually happened)
    don't forget a MMO requires to play with other players to make it work, putting a pro soccer player in some sunday afternoon team of the elderly wouldn't be fun for anyone.
    it would certainly even the playing field thus removing said need of LFR because one level of content would appeal to pretty much all of the players........
    An MMO like many other games doesn't really need intelligence... it needs eye/hand coordination for raiding. Plus good quality on hardware and internet connection.

    I know what you meant tho , but that comes with the size of any community. In or outside of games...

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Yes, and then people gtfo, and then the game collapses and everything is in the cold. Great idea, tell that to a lot of MMO developers whose sub base cannot breach 1 Mil while WoW has almost 10x that number.
    None of the recent MMOs developed died because raiding was too difficult and people bounced. People bounced because of other things, such as a faulty launch failing to bring in initial subscribers and lack of end game to hold them. BC had a very high sub count that was still growing throughout the expansion despite the raiding being pretty difficult.

  10. #210
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    I don't see denying people the ability to raid if they are incompetent enough to adapt and learn as elitism. That's just how raiding works, if a player does not perform well enough because he didn't learn his class, then no he should not be raiding. It takes less than 30 minutes to fully read up on a class or a fight to have a basic understanding of what will go on so you can minimize your chance of fucking up, but I would wager a guess that not many people outside of heroics do that anymore as the fight is so stupidly easy.
    People are people. You have to familiarize yourself with the idea that some people are just average at what their do. The thing is, they actually finance the content, so you have to give them LFR or they will move on. So, in order to be able to finance raids, you have to have LFR. For an HM raider, LFR will be quite optional in MOP anyway.
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  11. #211
    Two things for EVERYONE to consider:

    1. When raiding was "hard" and "only 10-20% of people playing saw all the content"...WoW also had its HIGHEST SUBSCRIPTION COUNT. WoW gets easier...Subscriptions drastically go down... explain that...

    2. When WoW was in its prime (TBC) raids started easy and got progressively harder, this DIDNT DISCOURAGE people, it brought teams closer to work harder and get better. There is a reason there are so many bads in WoW these days, there is no reason for them to grow their skill of the game REGARDLESS of how much time you have to play, you can be a casual player but still make the most of your time and be a GOOD casual player.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    An MMO like many other games doesn't really need intelligence... it needs eye/hand coordination for raiding. Plus good quality on hardware and internet connection.

    I know what you meant tho , but that comes with the size of any community. In or outside of games...
    well im sure you have seen your fair share of people and thought how the hell did he even reach lvl 85

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    I personally don't see LFR as raiding, but that's kind of irrelevent as the OP said there should still be a tier for learning the fight/lore.
    Doing something like that goes against everything he's complaining about. Instead of an easier difficulty for people who don't have the time or skill for harder content (LFR) he wants to have a whole easy tier? I'm sure all the "real raiders" he keeps talking about would love that.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    well that'd be tough luck then, just because you can't afford or achieve something doesn't mean something should be altered to accommodate lower standards.......
    You do realize that there is a glaring flaw with your whole Ferrari analogy, right? Ferrari doesn't accommodate to lower standards because the people who do buy their products pay a premium. If you want to pay $150 a month for a sub just so raiding can go back to the way it was, that's fine with me. However, that will never happen as long as the majority of the players (read: customers who pay for development costs) aren't hardcore raiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viled View Post
    Two things for EVERYONE to consider:

    1. When raiding was "hard" and "only 10-20% of people playing saw all the content"...WoW also had its HIGHEST SUBSCRIPTION COUNT. WoW gets easier...Subscriptions drastically go down... explain that...

    2. When WoW was in its prime (TBC) raids started easy and got progressively harder, this DIDNT DISCOURAGE people, it brought teams closer to work harder and get better. There is a reason there are so many bads in WoW these days, there is no reason for them to grow their skill of the game REGARDLESS of how much time you have to play, you can be a casual player but still make the most of your time and be a GOOD casual player.
    1. BC wasn't when WoW had the HIGHEST SUBSCRIPTION COUNT, WOTLK was. The difference in raid accessibility from BC to WOTLK was drastic. WoW becomes more accessible, subscription drastically go up, explain that. Oh wait, I just did.

    2. WoW was not in its prime during TBC. That is all I have to say to this point because the rest of what you said relating to it relies on the assumption that TBC was WoW's prime.
    Last edited by Disconnected; 2012-09-07 at 06:19 PM.

  15. #215
    The Lightbringer Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121_25

    685 25-man Sinestra kills up to today (that includes whole lot of facerolling with FL and DS gear), for let's say 32 people per guild = 21920

    http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/5121_10

    1374 10-man Sinestra kills with average of 12 ppl per guild = 16488

    25+10 size players together = 38408


    That's about 40k players out of 10 million who has been able to finish T11 up to today, or less than 0.5% of all players. So yes, raiders capable of doing heroic modes are extremely tiny minority and catering to 0.5% of your potential customers is a suicide for any kind of business.

    You need to include all the people who are clearing normal modes too. They too are raiders. And you need to include the people who PuG normal modes on their servers or go and raid with non-guildies. There are still raiding groups that aren't listed at wowprogress as guilds because their members come from enough different guilds to not qualify for a guild progress entry on wowprogress.

    And then you need to remember that many people value the LFR highly. Press a button and it'll build you a 25-man raid. No teamspeak, no tactical discussion, minimal conversation, and yay, let's kill that boss! What's so bad about it? I loved doing LFR with all my toons for a chance at loot and easy valor points. LFR doesn't cause burnout and it doesn't cause a raid instance to be 'consumed' faster. That's just nonsense. If you don't like it, don't do it. If you think you need to do it for a chance at getting certain loot, do so. Do LFR just like you'll do your heroic Scholomance for a healer shield or that epic caster staff that has a small chance to drop at Gandling. Visiting LFR once a week is no different than entering heroic X every day and farming a specific item.

    People write a lot of funny things about why LFR is bad. But I think they do not say the true reasons for why they think that others shouldn't be allowed to play it on top of everything else. Because what they do doesn't affect you. And if you feel FORCED to do LFR once a week... why aren't you feeling FORCED to farm certain dungeons for gear every day, perhaps more often than just once (if you use LFD - remember, LFD means picking the dungeon randomly, not the party members ).

  16. #216
    Fluffy Kitten Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viled View Post
    Two things for EVERYONE to consider:

    1. When raiding was "hard" and "only 10-20% of people playing saw all the content"...WoW also had its HIGHEST SUBSCRIPTION COUNT. WoW gets easier...Subscriptions drastically go down... explain that...

    2. When WoW was in its prime (TBC) raids started easy and got progressively harder, this DIDNT DISCOURAGE people, it brought teams closer to work harder and get better. There is a reason there are so many bads in WoW these days, there is no reason for them to grow their skill of the game REGARDLESS of how much time you have to play, you can be a casual player but still make the most of your time and be a GOOD casual player.
    WoW's highest subscription numbers were in Wrath, not TBC, and Wrath was definitely a casual raiding friendly expansion with a lot more people seeing the content than ever before.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You may want to check your eyesight then.


    Denying people the ability to raid because you want to be special is elitism.


    But it is a small (albeit vocal) minority. Most people (including those who actually experienced BC raiding) wouldn't go back.


    The thing is, the editor decides what raiding should be, not forum posters.


    Because it was new and because other games were even more hardcore and there was no other casual MMORPGs. People simply couldn't imagine casual MMOs because such a thing did not exist.
    Flawed points

    2. Since when were they a small community? you don't know what each individual who raids thinks, just because content is cleared doesn't mean they liked the means of getting it cleared(easy,hard, normal)

    3. Editors decide? no you're quite wrong. Editors decide under the influence of numbers and complaints. Complaints tend to be louder than anything, and numbers involving people never tell you personal feelings.

    4. BC was huge not because it was it was new, it was huge from the database that played WoW vanilla, and those people liked it for that style of play not because it was the only mmorpg out there. You had games like guild wars, lineage 2(which btw was more popular overseas), eve which still had a large database, lord of the things(remember when people said it would be the WoW killer? *laughs*) etc. It was that certain style and feel for the game that people enjoyed and those people still make up a large percentage of the database. Take away the 7million players that WoW originally had, what are you left with? 3 million or if you want to count the wotlk crowd, 5million subscribers. 2 million who already quit even after the game was made casual. So you can play the number game all day but at the end of the day and this goes for me to. Just because you have numbers does not mean you know what each individual wants. It's often that the forum community crowd tend to be an extreme bunch of individuals who are louder than the rest. I 100% believe blizzard and they won't ever admit this completely gets controlled by money and masses of complaints.

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disconnected View Post
    You do realize that there is a glaring flaw with your whole Ferrari analogy, right? Ferrari doesn't accommodate to lower standards because the people who do buy their products pay a premium. If you want to pay $150 a month for a sub just so raiding can go back to the way it was, that's fine with me. However, that will never happen as long as the majority of the players (read: customers who pay for development costs) aren't hardcore raiders.
    by replying in such manner you only show that you don't mind the whole quality aspect of wow going down the drain........
    15/month is also a premium knowing that other games are 60 tops with unlimited acces (often, it's changing sadly with all the dlc shit)
    So why would wow accommodate to lower standards than it's past had?
    Last edited by mmoce1d4ab16bc; 2012-09-07 at 06:19 PM.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by shroudster View Post
    no shit more are "raiding" if all you need to do nowadays is join lfr and go afk and press need when shinies drop.
    So you admit more people did not enjoy TBC raiding then?
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  20. #220
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anuibus View Post
    BC had a very high sub count that was still growing throughout the expansion despite the raiding being pretty difficult.
    Because there was no "more casual" alternative back then. It's like a 19th century peasant - he would be unable to imagine the life you're living now. But if you gave such a life style to him, he would never ever go back to his house without tap water and electricity.

    Same thing with MMOs - people were simply unable to imagine that one day, they would be able to set foot into raids. Instead they spent all BC wiping in heroics and Kara. But that could only keep people busy for so long. Hence, the model change in LK.
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