I propose this: Give the raids back to the raiders

[Madruga]

Touche with the quote^^
Yes Blizz changed the game, they introduced LFR and I have no problem with that but why give it loot that its 90% as good as normal raids when the casuals complain about not SEEING the content? If they want to see and try it let them but don't reqard them for faceroll crap like LFR.

That was a problem that Blizzard recognized. Specifically, the weapons and trinkets from DW were way too strong for LFR, even above the loot from Heroic Firelands.

LFR in MoP will not have such powerful weapons available, GC said they are making sure of that. It will be a lower ilvl than the previous tier. And the new loot system, being much more random, will make it very difficult to get a specific piece of gear you want from LFR.

They don´t wnat LFR to be the most viable way of gearing up, but a way for casuals to see content. Of course, some gearing up will come from it.I myself will run LFR a couple of times trying to find some better pieces at the beginning, but later I'll go to normals and never look back.

[ShadowCrafter]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...gue-of-raiding

25 man raiding was already under strain and with Paragon who is still considered the best raiding guild in the world now dropping to 10man I expect many other top guilds to follow so they can compete at the same format as them.

For the above reason and because +90% of all raiding guilds are now 10 man it is being viewed by many as the new competitive format. Regardless if a 25 man raiding guild comes first many are starting to focus more on what 10man guilds are doing.

It's another nail in the coffin for 25 man raiding with GMs/officers and recruitment already having to deal with the extra effort outside of raids.

What are your thoughts on this matter and do you agree that 10man is the new premier league of raiding in wow?

Personal opinions are not facts. And this thread is just as blatantly biased as the one I just closed about how 25 mans are epic and 10 mans are boring.

With much respect I will just link a few urls that add to my personal opinion.

25 man raiding guilds that did morchok heroic so far.
http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/2506109 --> 3363

10 man raiding guilds that did morchok heroic so far.
http://www.wowprogress.com/achievement/1006109 --> 44782

The above proves my > 90% doing 10 mans.

http://www.paragon.fi/

The above proves paragon the best raiding guild in the world is going 10 man

[MasterHamster]

Burning Crusade raid progression design was terrible.

[Aardy]

They don´t wnat LFR to be the most viable way of gearing up, but a way for casuals to see content. Of course, some gearing up will come from it.I myself will run LFR a couple of times trying to find some better pieces at the beginning, but later I'll go to normals and never look back.

You see its still a gear-up tool.. This kind of annoys me since almost every casual I have seen on these forumns has complained about SEEING content, Not gearing up from it. I guarantee you much less would do LFR if there was No gear on offer.

[Woozle]

Shadowcrafter, what is your point? More people are doing 10 mans than 25 mans? What are you trying to say about that?

[Akka]

But it is Blizzard's problem.

So Blizzard changes the game to keep more of those people subscribed.

Doesn't seem to be working.

[Woozle]

You see its still a gear-up tool.. This kind of annoys me since almost every casual I have seen on these forumns has complained about SEEING content, Not gearing up from it. I guarantee you much less would do LFR if there was No gear on offer.

Wrong. EXPERIENCING content. I want to experience the lore. I want to experience an easy mode of the raid. I want the experience of getting easy mode loot. Why is this a problem when, especially in MoP the gear will be even lesser quality than it is now? And so what if this is a way people are gearing up? Does it bother you that H 5 mans drop loot and you can queue through the dungeon finder? Loot is content anyways. Blizzard designed it, they crafted it, and they created it as part of the LFR/Raiding experience.

Why is it so important to you that I not get loot?

Edit: Actually, if there was no loot, then yeah, I would probably only do it once or twice just to experience the story or kill time. But it wasn't designed with that in mind. Blizz specifically wants to keep people busy and subscribed. This is just one tool in their arsenal for that.

[Aardy]

Doesn't seem to be working.

Thank you! Drop of 3 Million Subs since LFR came out? WoW Blizz what a great plan!

[Anjerith]

tBC model was not about bringing skilled players, it was about stacking class abilities. Wraths most difficult fights *did* rely on player skill, but because you couldnt bring 20 BloodLusts or BRezzes, difficulty is scaled accordinhly. Same thing with Cata.

[Deleted]

Woozle .

Is that less people and less people are raiding.

No more big guilds.

10-man has aswell the same problems with a 25-man.

What do you think that atm we have 1/5 raiders from wotlk?

Does this game had evolution or simply deny?

This game has simply take a solo aspect. A solo aspect in an mmorpg ????? This is simply /kill

About raiding doesn't have anything with the design or anything .Is about motivation. Motivation back then was to do the 25-man (the know hard) and 10-man (the know easy) so likely now that 10=25 more and more people loosed they're motivation.

No more guild not more raiders. And small guilds can't hold the population of server.

[Sledfang]

Doesn't seem to be working.

Actually it is working very well.

Just because the numbers are not at their highest doesnt mean the game is not extremely successful. Look at any relative comparison to see this.

[Aardy]

-Woozle
Well you are on of those few that instead of saying the want to see what happens and what fights there are that actually want to do it and gain from it... Like a said MOST casuals complain about not being able to see it, nevermind gaining from it.

[brirrspliff]

5. I heard this a million times "I would love to raid but can't"..not our fault. Do not ruin the essence of it. if you can't do it..you'll live but please don't drag others down with you.

hits the nail on the head. it's the new "motto" of these times. everyone is going to drag you down with him. be it creationists or wow players.

[Aardy]

-Sledfang
Yes WOW is still succesful Akka is talking about succes Pre and POST LFR and how it dropped...

[orangeguy04]

Alright there Grogo, you need to calm your panties down. I, like you, have paid/played for 7 long years as well. Ive seen all the raiding styles that blizz went through just as you did. Sure, BC did have some great, fun raids; but so did WoTLK and yes, even Cata had good raids, just drawn out. I'm an active raider who plays logically as well, content is easy. However, get it out of your head that this game is about your feelings or your apparent like-minded 'raiders'. You seem like the type of person who either never got anything as a kid or got handed everything, for your opinions are selfish and greedy.

So welcome to the real world friend. Blizzard will want to make as much money as possible while keeping the majorities best interest in mind, that is how a successfull business works. It seems to me as well, judging by your certain dislike to the lfr system, i can bet that you are one of those fellow lfr assholes that we come across in them trying to cause as much rukus as possible. People do live real lives you know, have jobs, families, hobbies (in which one is WoW) so they cannot always be here; but they sure as well deserve to be part of the content as much as you do.

Lots of people have the urge to be a raider, but just cannot. So the LFR system is a great way to satisfy that urge and feel accomplished. If you are so bent on having raiding your way and care not so much about the public, i know a game you'd like, its called 'Dungeons and Dragons'. That way it will be just for you! Just like you wanted...Enjoy!

[Tomana]

Thank you! Drop of 3 Million Subs since LFR came out? WoW Blizz what a great plan!

LFR came out in 4.3, some of the 3 mil sub loss precede it. Get your chronology straight. Also: end of expansion, people bored and stuff.

[Dylamoo]

You're hatin' so much you just can't see things objectively anymore. Speaking of Firelands in 25 player heroic difficulty:

Shannox was fairly easy if you had few competent tanks and dps, most guilds killed it on first day. Rhyolith was mechanically easy, but very buggy and annoying to drive. Also fairly easy. Staghelm was facerolled by most guilds with clever use of class abiities.

Alysrazor totally doable, but individual requirement of line dancing to avoid standing on fire. Beth'tilac had pretty high DPS requirement for P2, but other than that it was mostly finding out a suitable group composition.

Baleroc had insanely high DPS requirement when it came out before nerfs, being a big step up from the other five bosses and much harder than Staghelm after it. Not just DPS requirement but also precise movement in 25man raid. And no point even Mentioning Ragnaros which went to difficulty 14 in scale of 1-10. There is a ramp up in difficulty, but it's not linear, rather three or four distinctive steps.

Same applies to Dragon Soul:

Morchok super easy on it's own step. After that Hagara, Yor'Sahj and Ultraxion on step two. After that Zon'ozz and Blackhorn on step three. And Madness & Spine were again on their own league. that's five distinctive steps up in difficulty (except last two in wrong order).

Speaking of Hyjal Summit:

Rage Winterchill and Anetheron total faceroll, Morchok level in difficulty. After that Kaz'rogal and Azgalor only tiny bit harder bosses, but with much harder trash waves. Archimonde significantly harder. You can see it as three distinctive steps in difficulty or an exponential curve. Black Temple did exact same thing. Clearly distinctive steps up in difficulty.

Starting to see a pattern here? Firelands and Dragon Soul did nothing different in ramping up of difficulty compared to T6 for example. Claiming anything else is either deep denial or madness.



There was no easy mode in raid difficulty during TBC, of course there would be more guild clearing content in Cataclysm. The thing is what people like you conveniently ignore is that the attunements made it impossible to access the easy bosses in TBC. In my realm every single 3/4 & 5/6 guild stuck on Vashj and Kael went to 3/5 & 3/9 T6 within a week after attunements were removed. That's how easy those bosses were.

Or to put it other way, my guild did first kill of heroic 25man Morchok on 6th attempt. Rage Winterchill, Supremus and Shade of Akama took five attempts together for all three bosses in TBC. So yes, the content was very easily facerollable once you had passed the attunement shit.



Not even close. Look back into videos of Illidari Council or Archimonde and compare that to heroic LK or heroic Ragnaros.



Being stupid like somebody who'd say something like that while handling Defiles on heroic LK or Traps/Waves/Seeds/Meteorites/Breaths on heroic Ragnaros would cause instant wipe.

You might get away exaggerating a little bit, but too much is too obvious.

You're completely disregarding what i'm trying to say. Stop reading what you want to read and stop using me as a means to validate your opinion as well as your idea. I'll iterate this so that anyone can understand.

From start to finish raids in cata were so objectively random that you never really felt like you were raiding. It became as such that it felt like you were doing something for example dailys. You don't raid to see your numbers and you don't raid to see your loot, you raid to test yourself in the struggles and difficulties of raiding. Yet in cataclysm the model they follow promotes no epic quality to the game as compared to tbc did, You can tie a story to your raid and make the illusion that it is epic but when it goes down to it you really didn't work hard enough to feel like you did.

From my understanding of your logic you for some reason think i have no reason to hate the expansions when clearly a whole mass of players like me exist. You try to rationalize that we don't know what were talking about when clearly you're the one who can't respect the idea enough due to your bias for the game.

You actually make good points about the game but by no means are you even on the same subject matter, you really need to think about what's being argued about before you start throwing out your senseless opinions. You can subjectively say that tbc bosses in your opinion were easy like the cata and wotlk bosses but by no means can you hold any true substance to that opinion. For the record archimonde if you went for more than 1 second in the fire you can and will most likely die due to other mechanics that coincide with the fire trails he spawns, curses and etc.

The model that world of warcraft is following now is causing many people who enjoyed raiding to start losing interest because they are lacking qualities of the game they actually liked due to unnecessary change. If you avidly follow these forums or the world of warcraft forums, you will know exactly what i'm talking about. The people who end up quitting the game get the troll responses that are like "good leave we don't need people like you". You will notice that the wow population will continue to die and if you think the raiding population has nothing to do with it then you're in denial. Just look at how this quarter wow lost over a million more subscribers(most of which are in asia,which already make up most of WoW's population), they may have left due to no content and raiding to do but if you think about it they left for reasons because of raids which shows you people are playing this game for good raiding.

Heres a analysis on very key points you missed about tbc bosses vs cata bosses.

Shannox - get hit by fire you live, get hit by fire trap you live, get cleaved by shannox you live, all of which assuming you're at full health but what else is there to do damage to you?
Gib factors - more than 3 seconds of dog on you, poor management of stacks

Bethillac - One of the harder heroic version runs and was fun now we'll get onto the randomness factor

Alysrazor - get cleaved by birds and you still live, getting hit by a fireball on ground thingy you can still live if you move on reasonable time, screw up on ring stacks and you can still win against the enrage,
Gib mechanics - Standing in fire for more than 3 seconds, not being able to dodge tornado's, meteor handling overall still an easy accomplishment because it doesn't really do anything but repeat easy to begin with factors

Rhyolith - Bugged from the start but once fixed my raid could harldy tell the difference between heroic and normal, oh wait laser beams last phase! volcanoes didn't kill you instantly if you stood in the path, adds management was easy, overall hardest part of the boss was getting people not to frenzy on just one leg otherwise very simple

Baleroc - high dps requirements and basically the same fight, just watch for crystal spawn management and it's simple. I can argue that mechanically there was no challenge.

Staghelm was a joke don't even make me explain how easy this was

Ragnaros - yay the one of very few examples use to justify that the raids overall were difficult. Just one boss fight.. yep totally logical

TBC -

Hyjal

Ragewinterchill - Regardless of how easy he was you still couldn't be an dumb ass and stand in Death and decay or you died within 2 seconds if you didn't have a pvp trinket you were dead from ice tombs, you had to strategize positioning when that raid came out to get extra dps from npc's to help down him, You had annoying trash mobs to deal with when at the time tanks had to go all out to keep themselves alive while people AOE'd like crazy. AOE was a very hard to do thing at the time for tanks if you don't think so then clearly you do not and have not raided tbc not as simple as you claim

Anetheron - Trash again aoe i can't state how clear that is back in tbc the annoyance and difficulty of aoe tanks especially if you were a warrior at the time. Anyway to begin. Fire resist tank needed for infernals, carrion swarm = -50% healing so healers had to be really good at mana management and topping off the raid before another carrion, overall not forgiving if 1 person messes up like lets say a stupid dps out of place and gets the tanks hit with carrion, or if the off tank dies due to slow dps on infernals. not as simple as you claim

Kazrogal - overall just a dps check, watch out for your mana so you don't kill the raid(if you recall if you fucked up on your mana back in that raid when you blew up you instantly died and killed whoever was near you pre nerf) you screwed up in your mana pool and everyone died. Very high dps at the time and back then we used to strategize npc's for this fight. not simple

Azgalor - dps check if he wasn't killed fast enough doomguards would pile up too much and you'd wipe, dps decay(someone was always guaranteed to die) cleave was an instant kill if you were melee and accidentily walked infront of him to avoid hellfire. Hellfire was a more than 2 seconds you died overall not simple

Archimonde - One of the harder bosses released at the time because it took an extreme amount of team work to get right. Air bursts screw up and die, Dying = debuffing the entire raid with random damage or knock downs, firetrails that were around during the entire fight slowing down dps to avoid death, curses that would kill realy quick if not dispelled within the first second of being out. This was complicated and though it's not harder than lets say ragnaros the overall progress of getting through a raid at the time was just more complex and required more team work than the raids do now.

As far as your argument about attunements go you do realize to unlock the specific raids required to you to clear raids that have to be done before them right? People couldn't down easier content to begin with so how does that statistic at all even work? As stated each raid progressively got harder and i iterate this once again each meaning the individual raid got progressively harder as they went along, Azgalor was harder than rage winter chill or anetheron or kazrogal, kazrogal was harder than the bosses before him and so on. So it makes a lot of sense to people to be stuck at kael, vashj, archimonde or illidan before completing content. The fact that attunements being removed is a testament to the system of progressive difficulty not in the likes of which is in favor to your argument.

FYI i'm arguing that normal modes get a ramp up in difficulty to make the journey feel even more epic when you hit heroic. The point of which would be to promote and give us a far better journey and experience in the raiding process. All they would need to do is increase the scaling more and be less forgiving and they would have the perfect gig for the raiders who want to raid like tbc

[nekobaka]

Only the gatekeeper crap required for attunements were hard and the rest scaled up from total faceroll to hard content inside tiers. Just like Firelands and Dragon Soul.

You forgot T11, particularly if you did it in 25 man, you could get a PuG and clear a few fights with half your raid dead at the end of each fight. The balance between 10 and 25 man on a number of fights was that horrible with the rest going to balanced raid comps being hampered because of one class/situational ability not being present. The end of the raid bosses for T11 and T12 was road blocks for many who could get up there and many PuGs that could get up there could not beat the final boss and move on to heroic mode.

On my realm PuGs was getting 9/12 within three to four months of Cata launch and far better then they did in ICC in the given time frame after all bosses was unlocked. The developers have stated several times that normal mode raids are not designed for PuGs and that they are designed with guild groups in mind and yet the "raiders" who enjoy raiding and want to see raid content have been giving Blizzard the finger and seeing it anyways in PuGs.

[ShadowCrafter]

Shadowcrafter, what is your point? More people are doing 10 mans than 25 mans? What are you trying to say about that?

Woozle not sure if you know much about English football, but the point I am making is that 25 man raiding has now been relegated to the B league, 10 man raiding is the new prestige premier raiding format.

[Gurbz]

Thank you! Drop of 3 Million Subs since LFR came out? WoW Blizz what a great plan!

The two largest drops came at the beginning of Cata (when heroics and raids, by Blizzard's own admission, were closer to the TBC style of difficulty) and the quarter ending almost 6 months after LFR was released, once Dragon Soul had been out for half a year and people were pretty much in the "wait for expansion" mode. The quarter in which LFR was released showed no change in subs, and was the feature credited with stopping the subscriber bleed. So no, LFR and/or the structure of raids did not have a significant impact in the falling subscription numbers. It has far more to do with the fact that DS was out for FAR too long for a raid with only 8 bosses. Once you clear Heroic DS, maybe get a few achievements or the mount, what motivation would people have to keep playing, knowing that any gear they could farm would be replaced once the expansion released?

I still don't get how people can logically argue that changing an inclusive system into a much more exclusive system would provide any incentive for people to stay subscribed longer. You are advocating a system that from it's outset told a large portion of the playerbase people that it did not matter how skilled they were, or how much desire to do so they had, they were never going to be able to see all the content available in the game while it is relevant. Blizzard (and other MMOs) got away with it through the Vanilla/TBC era because that is how it had always been. That paradigm changed in Wrath, and the beginning of Cata demonstrated that the playerbase at large is unwilling to go back.