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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    I see. Are you sure of this ? Because if there's no any internal cooldown, then it's all based on how lucky you get, really. Yes it's unlikely, you reach a 40+ sec active time in a single minute, but it can still happen from time to time. Talking about a 1 or 2 procs per minute then becomes very insignificant.

    In comparison, when we say a trinket has a 1 PPM, it means it has an internal cooldown of 1 minute, making it impossible to proc more than once every minute. But on the other hand, its proc chance is often so high that unless you remain totally passive, it WILL proc that on time in a minute. I thought it was the same here.



    Indeed. If it's working this way, then you'll get on average less procs with Dancing Steel, if you're not Hit&Expertise capped.

    ---------- Post added 2012-09-08 at 04:20 PM ----------

    I really haven't seen any TC on this, so I can't say for sure how the proc mechanics is actually working. Do you perhaps have a link to some calculations on this?
    Sure, http://www.wowpedia.org/Procs_per_minute is good source for all this. Having no ICD and a PPM associated we probably can assume that they were work like good ol' TBC and Vanilla enchants. The PPM on those were always an average, so yes, you could get lucky and have 30 secs on mongoose. There is no mention on the GC post of any ICD of both River's song and Dancing Steel, while Colossus and Windsong are described as having a 3/1 sec CD respectively, so I think those two having no ICD is a fair assumption. Wowhead have them as 0 CD too.
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2012-09-08 at 05:38 PM.

  2. #182
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gum View Post
    And no Thylacine, its not a good idea on a patchwerk encounter either. It will never be better to mindlessly bind something together than manually do it, unless you arent yourself able to handle it. Thats skillcap for you, while it might not be a huge difference, its there. Saying its perfectly viable, is like saying playing a spec doing 5% less dps than another spec available to you. Yes .. you can do that, but why would you? Im not saying its wrong to start out somewhere, then working towards the goal of mastering the concept of pressing buttons when accordingly instead of mindlessly.. But Giving the false impression that its "The way" or anywhere near close to "the way" of doing it, shouldnt be condoned.
    What you choose to "condone" is up to you, but I'm personally not in the business of answering questions with moral absolutes and ignoring what was actually said (or even asked). If you're tanking a boss that's entirely physical in its damage output, and you macro Shield Block to your main attacks, "skill cap" doesn't come into it; merely efficiency. I can appreciate it's fun to try and backhandedly slight people on the Internet, what would the web be without its tough guys? But arguing that "it will never be better to mindlessly bind" is just nose-in-the-air snobbery from someone ignorant to physical or mental limitations that they don't suffer.

    At no stage did either I, or the poster who asked the question, try to imply that it was a great idea or even a halfway good one. Even on the purely physical fights erstwhile mentioned, there's usually a nuke or two kicking about that you'd be better using a barrier for. But new players coming to World of Warcraft have a right to learn the game at a pace that suits them, not a pace that suits some faceless online bully. Yes, you got that right; your little snide about playing a DPS spec that's 5% behind another tells me exactly what type of player you are. Your election to then prattle on aimlessly about my being "butthurt" and allowing "slacking" higlights your irrelevant type even more.

    But don't worry - there are plenty of you out there. Thousands of humdrum players that like to prove themselves by playing how they're told and using mods to wipe their arses for them. Better players get on with the game and enjoy themselves in stimulating company, safe in the knowledge that their self-assurance isn't directly related to the approval of drones who personally judge people they don't know on the basis of that theoretical 5% difference.

    Shop smart. Shop S Mart.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Sure, http://www.wowpedia.org/Procs_per_minute is good source for all this. Having no ICD and a PPM associated we probably can assume that they were work like good ol' TBC and Vanilla enchants. The PPM on those were always an average, so yes, you could get lucky and have 30 secs on mongoose. There is no mention on the GC post of any ICD of both River's song and Dancing Steel, while Colossus and Windsong are described as having a 3/1 sec CD respectively, so I think those two having no ICD is a fair assumption. Wowhead have them as 0 CD too.
    Nice. Agreed, the difference between those enchants, like many other things in this next expansion, is very close, and even hard to clearly call. It will again depend on the scenario and your personal game style.

    When Hit&Expertise (soft) capped, I'd still prefer Dancing Steel for the reasons I gave above. When that isn't the case however, River's Song might indeed end up better, thanks to some extra procs. But you still wouldn't be getting the extra damage from it, and it wouldn't have any use against magic neither.

    As a baseline choice thus, if you decide to stack at least a bit of threat stats (which would usually be the case), Dancing Steel should turn out more useful, since it has a wider range of applications, for a very minor avoidance cost.

    And for pure magic damage encounters, Colossus should be the way to go.

  4. #184
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    I would have to think or read a bit more before deciding on an enchant. Even more so given that the expertise soft-cap is not a "real" obligation, though I personally would like very much to go with a hit/expertise cap reforge. I really hate seeing attacks being missed, from a "fun" PoV (besides considering that tank dps it's important). Anyways, Theck did an interesting post today on the value of stats, and how avoidance generates rage too. I suppose you could go the way of stacking avoidance instead of hit/expertise, downgrading Dancing Steel.

    http://sacredduty.net/2012/09/10/l90...-for-warriors/

    I would link only the conclusion, since I think his blog deserves some clicks:

    Conclusions

    I think these simulations were quite fruitful. It’s clear that the results differ enough from the paladin ones that a separate analysis was warranted. I’ve seen a lot of ambiguity regarding stat weights for prot warriors, and these simulations bring statistical evidence into those discussions. For one thing, the value of hit and expertise seems a lot lower than many assumed, and their value at level 90 will end up being directly correlated to how important extra Shield Barrier casts are. That may even be a player-specific decision rather than a hard-and-fast rule.

    In addition, I think everyone will be a little surprised at how strong avoidance is for warriors. The synergy between Revenge and dodge/parry is a fearsome thing, effectively turning dodge/parry into rage generation stats. The warrior that eschews hit/exp and stacks dodge/parry may not suffer much as far as rage generation is concerned simply because of Revenge. Rather than having to choose between a resource generation stat and an avoidance stat, like a paladin does, the warrior can stick with avoidance and get both.

    I’d say that this devalues hit and expertise, and that every warrior will be stacking avoidance to the sky, but hit and expertise still give an element of control that’s worth considering. High avoidance may give you enough resource generation to maintain a fairly high Shield Block uptime, but that avoidance-based rage income is just as stochastic as the damage reduction it grants. You could easily get doubly screwed by a string of missed attacks occurring simultaneously with a string of unavoided attacks, leaving you high and dry. At least with respectable hit/exp values, you have more control over your rage income.

    That said, Shield Block’s 2-charge mechanic and the ability to pool 120 rage mitigate this problem quite a bit. That might be enough control for a skilled warrior, making the sheer rating investment of hit- and expertise-cap unattractive for such a small benefit. And we have shown that it only takes about 9% total hit+expertise to reach the point where Shield Block is available as often as it can be. It wouldn’t surprise me if avoidance-stacking became the dominant gearing strategy for warriors even while the hit/exp/mastery/haste strategy becomes dominant for paladins.

    As a brief footnote: The warrior diminishing returns equations are a little different than the paladin ones, and seem to have been balanced pretty well given our gear set with roughly equal amounts of dodge and parry rating. Remember, the stated design goal was for our rating values to be approximately equal after the extra parry->strength conversion. I find myself wondering if that’s why the warrior equations were changed again. They were identical to paladins at one point in beta, but the most recent change adjusted the scaling and the dodge cap. I also wonder whether the paladin dodge cap will be adjusted similarly before L90 raiding.

  5. #185
    The point I want to bring to light is that your avoidance won't mean much at all if the attacks don't land.

  6. #186
    Deleted
    Well, you always have to ask yourself as a tank... do I gear for less damage intake in average, or for avoiding worst case scenarios at any costs?

    About that, I think that point he brings up is good enough, a 120 rage pool and 2 charges of shield block soften the whole "I didn't avoid anything, and none of my attacks hit" streak. It can still happen, but Last Stand is there for that. You won't gear for 0 hit/expertise either. At 0 hit/exp still looks pretty valuable, but the value of dodge and parry is an order of magnitude better for the first set of gear he uses, having 4.47% hit and 5.22% exp. More than worth it for me to gear for avoidance instead of cap.

    Though that is considering the rage above SB max uptime gets wasted, so after a certain point hit and exp falls a lot in value. If he were to include SBar there, hit/exp won't look that abysmally bad. Hope he manages to get a working model including that. Though looking at the stimation he makes, I won't get too much hope of seeing hit/exp value grow too much.

    All in all, looking at that, if I gear for hit/exp cap it would be for 1) DPS, 2) Magic Fights.
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2012-09-10 at 07:16 PM.

  7. #187
    Deleted
    Mastery is only good if you are using shield block, otherwise it is shit. I am barely ever using shield block, so I am going to reforge out of mastery.

    Currently, my gear is max mastery and that gives me 12% chance to block and 53% chance for those blocks to be critical. Now, that's a 12% for a 30% reduction or a chance for a 60% reduction, 53% of the time. 17.8% of that is not on gear, so only 36.07% of my mastery is from gear - so 30% of my mastery stat isn't even on my gear after reforging nothing but mastery.
    Now my parry is on 28% - 10% of that is coming from gear. Parry's gives a 100% reduction in melee damage.

    So to summarize:
    8% chance to reduce 30% damage and a 35.59% chance (of 8%) to reduce 60% damage (Roughly 8% chance to reduce 38% average damage) - Remember, not all of my mastery is from my gear even
    or
    10% chance to reduce 100% damage and reset revenge to allow you to get more rage for Shield Barrier.

    Currently, its a no brainer for me. When MoP hits, it will change.
    Last edited by mmoc18646deaeb; 2012-09-10 at 09:14 PM.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Espada View Post
    Well, you always have to ask yourself as a tank... do I gear for less damage intake in average, or for avoiding worst case scenarios at any costs?
    Avoiding worst case and keeping damage intake consistant has been the general consensus of the effective health supporters in the first 3 expansions, the most popular opinion overall more or less until cata. The reason being (and since CTC is no longer attainable) it reduces spikiness and forces your damage intake to be more consistent, if higher overall. One of the reasons we're not stacking stam particularly is because of the mana and healing changes, we'd be mana sponges. So the choices are mastery, parry/dodge and hit/exp. From a pure RPS standpoint it is logical to stack a large amount of mastery, crit block has no DR and enrages us, each crit block is 10 rage with no GCD and a small ICD. That's practically a freebee. With avoidance, yes you do refresh revenge more often, which is great, and I find myself spamming it on aoe packs. But honestly even with hit capped and expertise at 14%, on bosses that melee I am still getting quite a lot of revenges, and the great majority of them do land. Anectdotally I just feel like it's plenty and I'm not really worried about avoiding attacks purely for damage reduction overall.[/quote]

    About that, I think that point he brings up is good enough, a 120 rage pool and 2 charges of shield block soften the whole "I didn't avoid anything, and none of my attacks hit" streak. It can still happen, but Last Stand is there for that. You won't gear for 0 hit/expertise either. At 0 hit/exp still looks pretty valuable, but the value of dodge and parry is an order of magnitude better for the first set of gear he uses, having 4.47% hit and 5.22% exp. More than worth it for me to gear for avoidance instead of cap.
    I do use the 120 rage glyph and have pooled it at times to use at a specific moment, however doing that all the time is going to cause a lot of waste and that makes for a very poor warrior.

    Though that is considering the rage above SB max uptime gets wasted, so after a certain point hit and exp falls a lot in value. If he were to include SBar there, hit/exp won't look that abysmally bad. Hope he manages to get a working model including that. Though looking at the stimation he makes, I won't get too much hope of seeing hit/exp value grow too much.
    SBar should never be excluded and thus it makes the argument as a whole a little bit absurd until that large portion is worked into it. Block only works on melee and even then there are unblockable melee abilities as you already know.
    Last edited by idefiler6; 2012-09-10 at 09:19 PM.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    Avoiding worst case and keeping damage intake consistant has been the general consensus of the effective health supporters in the first 3 expansions, the most popular opinion overall more or less until cata. The reason being (and since CTC is no longer attainable) it reduces spikiness and forces your damage intake to be more consistent, if higher overall. One of the reasons we're not stacking stam particularly is because of the mana and healing changes, we'd be mana sponges. So the choices are mastery, parry/dodge and hit/exp. From a pure RPS standpoint it is logical to stack a large amount of mastery, crit block has no DR and enrages us, each crit block is 10 rage with no GCD and a small ICD. That's practically a freebee. With avoidance, yes you do refresh revenge more often, which is great, and I find myself spamming it on aoe packs. But honestly even with hit capped and expertise at 14%, on bosses that melee I am still getting quite a lot of revenges, and the great majority of them do land. Anectdotally I just feel like it's plenty and I'm not really worried about avoiding attacks purely for damage reduction overall.
    Take into account that you are seeing that in end of expansion gear, and lvl 85 vs 90 unbalance. Personally, I am at 45% avoidance, hit and expertise (soft) capped while using a reforge for mastery, and gemming for stamina. With offspec gear. Which I should re-reforge and regem, since I agree with the above poster that at this point, it's better to forget about mastery and just spam Sbar. But giving that we have had no pve content for last year, zzzz to redo the gear... Anyways, you won't have that luxury at all at the start of mop. And you would have to choose, which you aren't doing now.

    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    I do use the 120 rage glyph and have pooled it at times to use at a specific moment, however doing that all the time is going to cause a lot of waste and that makes for a very poor warrior.
    He didn't mean pooling it constantly. What it meant, it's that you will be able to store some surplus from lucky streaks to soft unlucky streaks. I mean, if you had an infinite rage storage, there won't be any unlucky streaks with enough combat time. Talking about right now, you probably have so much rage that if you only spend it in only Sblocks, you are capping several times per combat and wasting it, something which shouldn't happen in far worse gear. In the LFR gear of first tier that he used for the sims, you would have only rage enough to maintain Sblock max uptime, if that's what you wanted to do. You will get a bit of rage pooled from lucky streaks, but that's it, to Sbar you will have to stop SB. With goes to next point:

    Quote Originally Posted by idefiler6 View Post
    SBar should never be excluded and thus it makes the argument as a whole a little bit absurd until that large portion is worked into it. Block only works on melee and even then there are unblockable melee abilities as you already know.
    The sim was made thinking of melee swing damage, not unblockable damage. Sbar was excluded there because he wanted to go for Sblock max uptime, and that left him with only enough rage to get one Shield Barrier each 3 minutes (again, take into account the kind of gear used). It was fair to exclude it in that situation, I don't think it will change that much the stat weights. Of course, being able to convert more rage to mitigation changes hit/exp, but look at the results of the 0 hit/exp set-up.

    Then again, of course, if the fight is magic heavy or you care about your dps, hit and exp skyrocket in value.

    All in all, the whole thing was fairly good at it's intention, which was to get stat weights for each stat for reducing damage. Anyhow, looking at the comments of the post, it will be interesting to see how it follows, since there is a lot of work to do yet...
    Last edited by mmoc38db56fadf; 2012-09-11 at 06:08 PM.

  10. #190
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    On your crit section, I would like to point one thing out- Crit has a very SLIGHT increase for prot warriors, mitigation wise. However, compared to what you would be loosing by stacking crit, it is pretty neglible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    On your crit section, I would like to point one thing out- Crit has a very SLIGHT increase for prot warriors, mitigation wise. However, compared to what you would be loosing by stacking crit, it is pretty neglible.
    No defensive stat is worth sacrificing for crit.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    On your crit section, I would like to point one thing out- Crit has a very SLIGHT increase for prot warriors, mitigation wise. However, compared to what you would be loosing by stacking crit, it is pretty neglible.
    What's the defensive value of critical strike rating? AFAIK, only Critical Blocks will Enrage you, not critical strikes.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    On your crit section, I would like to point one thing out- Crit has a very SLIGHT increase for prot warriors, mitigation wise. However, compared to what you would be loosing by stacking crit, it is pretty neglible.
    I really don't see how Critical Strike increases survivability. Could you clarify this ?

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by L Kebess View Post
    I really don't see how Critical Strike increases survivability. Could you clarify this ?
    more crits = more dps = faster boss kills less time to get hit :P

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Puntr View Post
    more crits = more dps = faster boss kills less time to get hit :P
    So minute it's not even worth mentioning.

  16. #196
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    Incidentally, Theck's updated his post about warrior stat weights. Essentially, he got the value of mastery wrong and didn't properly count Berserker Rage in the simulations. And while he still doesn't simulate Shield Barrier, it actually looks worse than previously for hit and expertise.

    Basically, they're gutter stats. Mastery, parry and dodge are roughly equivalent and our threat stats are to be pretty much avoided at all costs.

  17. #197
    This is not the first time I wanted to smack ghostcrawler with my gym socks.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Incidentally, Theck's updated his post about warrior stat weights. Essentially, he got the value of mastery wrong and didn't properly count Berserker Rage in the simulations. And while he still doesn't simulate Shield Barrier, it actually looks worse than previously for hit and expertise.

    Basically, they're gutter stats. Mastery, parry and dodge are roughly equivalent and our threat stats are to be pretty much avoided at all costs.
    I will still be Hit and Expertise soft caping. I don't like the unpredictability that comes with too many avoided hits. I like knowing that when I hit my Shield Slam, I'll most likely be getting the 20 Rage I'm missing for a Shield.

    The Dodge and Parry I'll be losing in doing so will only be significant in simulations, and not that much in a real time scenario. Our tanking model isn't based on avoidance like Druid's for example, and so even though avoiding an attack is nice to mitigate damage, if avoiding less actually allows me to be more sustainable and reliable because, I have more control over my Shielding abilities, then personally I won't hesitate a second.

    I agree that spending too much rating on threat stat would eventually do more harm than good (expertise hard cap for example, should be neglected at least until ilvl isn't an issue anymore), but not spending enough in those stats, just because the simulation says Dodge and Parry can mitigate more damage on average, would be just as harmful.

    Furthermore, his whole analysis can only be correct, IF you aren't using Shield Barrier at all, which won't be true in encounters where there is a constant flow of magic damage. He can't just dismiss this just like that, and suggest a somewhat baseline priority regardless of anything that can alter that priority.

  19. #199
    Ok, I just went and switched all of my gems/reforging to match Theck's new calculations, then ran an HoT. I gained about 1% dodge and 5% parry and lost 10% expertise and 6% hit, I'm at about 4% combined right now. I didn't notice revenge proccing any more than when I had less avoidance, and my mastery stayed exactly the same as previous. I'm going to need more convincing that those are gutter stats and that avoidance has real value for block uptime.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thylacine View Post
    Incidentally, Theck's updated his post about warrior stat weights. Essentially, he got the value of mastery wrong and didn't properly count Berserker Rage in the simulations. And while he still doesn't simulate Shield Barrier, it actually looks worse than previously for hit and expertise.

    Basically, they're gutter stats. Mastery, parry and dodge are roughly equivalent and our threat stats are to be pretty much avoided at all costs.
    That conclusion is not substantiated by the sims he has run so far, precisely because he hasn't incorporated shield barrier usage into them yet. He's looking for feedback from warriors as to how to best model shield barrier usage, but trying to make claims like "hit and expertise are gutter stats" from his incomplete simulation is putting words in his mouth.

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