Warlock 3v3 Survivability looks awful

[pokeadott]

Missing the baseline 25% SL is what will hurt locks the most. It's virtually the mian reason why we have been viable in pvp for the past 3 years atleast.

20% baseline, but yeah - this is going to kill us outside of the diehards I think. Training locks is already the go to strat for most teams, and we have gotten no great tools to counter that. We have Def CD's, but they are the longest in the game. Most classes' Offensive Cds/trinkets are on shorter cooldowns than our defensives. Problems inc. We also received no new escapes from CC or defensives usable while CCed- aside form one that costs us 20% of our hp, hardly an option when being focused most times. As to the 2 biggest concerns for me related to our passive Damage Reduction, they are both related to the way the devs view the old SL and current FelArmor...

1) Xel stated that SL was not really as good as a flat DR because it just transferred the dmg to your pet. Anyone that actually played arenas, knows that the 4.X SL offered pretty much a flat 20% DR because killing pets was not a viable tactic. Healers could easily toss a side heal to our fel pup and keep him in the game. Moreover, SB->Summon + port Summon + Soul Harvest meant resummoning pets was a breeze. If functioned identically to a flat passive 20% DR in real world play.

2) Xel also stated that the max HP bonus + the inc. heals bonus was equivalent to a good DR (between 15-20% depending on what math you want to use). Anyone that plays arenas also knows that when you get swapped to at 70k hp and danced on in a bomb, those inc heals and higher max hp are useless, whersas flat DR saves your ass.

... not only are his statements flat our wrong in the context of real world arenas, but it's just another example of a dev team that doesn't pvp much. Xel even admitted this when he tried to explain why his dev team didn't know how Thunderstorm and Dispersion worked. He said that not everyone pvp's a lot. Yet, unfortunately for us, these are the guys in charge of balancing locks for pvp. Since they obviously don't have the real-world experience to understand how things work, we are stuck waiting to see representation numbers at the end of the season.

What's even more worrying, is that even if we get a survival buff, a dev team that doesn't pvp will have no idea of how unfun it can be to play a lock sometimes when you are constantly prevented from casting/moving for large portions of the match. Our only defense for this in the past was to be practically unkillable in many situations and still able to create pressure via multidotting with mostly instant casts. Since we now rely on single targeting with a large focus on chanelled/casted spells, we need breathing room more than ever. Without our old passive survivbility and without any new means of creating casting windows for ourselves, what we're left with is a slow, plodding class that doesn't have the tools it needs to put out any pressure while focused.

[Jessicka]

Sometimes I think you just want to disagree with everything just to argue. The way you talk about warlocks it amazes me you even play the class. If you can't see some talents are better in PvP i don't know what to say. What warlocks need is a nether shell that works like mages ice barrier.

Of course I can see that. If you can't see that a complete philosophy change in how the class works is going to cause problems, then it makes me wonder if you even play the game, or any game at all.

I don't think anyone, anywhere would be naive enough to think the game would be perfectly balanced on release especially for a class that's been so radically overhauled.

[Crack the Sky]

Hmm, I watched Maldivas stream some days ago and they won like 25 games in a row as hpala, spriest, destro.

That's because Maldiva was literally 1 - 2 shotting anything with Chaos Bolt, I watched this too. He 2 shot Sodah. Destro is nothing like that at 90.

Snutz said it best. At lower ratings/player skill level, Locks would die rather easily because they had no cds or mobility and people don't know how to position themselves correctly. At higher ratings/skill levels Locks were basically unkillable except against Thug Cleave and Triple DPS, where people knew how to position. So they removed all our passive defense and gave us cd's instead, a playstyle most of us don't like.

[Xelnath]

2) Xel also stated that the max HP bonus + the inc. heals bonus was equivalent to a good DR (between 15-20% depending on what math you want to use). Anyone that plays arenas also knows that when you get swapped to at 70k hp and danced on in a bomb, those inc heals and higher max hp are useless, whersas flat DR saves your ass.

If you don't stop misquoting me right now, pokeadott, I will stop reading your feedback.

[alexw]

Dark bargain- This ability is a death trap. Popping this sets up a nice kill attempt by the enemy, because while they focus you thru the spell, they know that at the end a massive dot will be dropped on your head, killing you in the process. The 50% damage taken after its over should be looked at getting removed or severely reduced. Its cooldown is long enough that this should be considered.

I've posted myself on this but it's nice to have others say the same thing. Rather than a go attack someone else talent which is what it should be, its a focus me and pop everything talent. It's an absolute no brainer to focus the lock when he pop's it since its gives such a great kill window to the opposing team in 8s. Plenty of time to unload damage pre-dot then time cc on your team-mates and really unload when the dot portion becomes active.

My own thoughts on this is that dark bargain should not only put a 50% dot on the warlock but on our enemy target. To balance, while the damage reduction portion is active our own outgoing damage is reduced by 50%. That way the talent works as it actually should - makes enemies go elsewhere for those 8s.

[Deleted]

So basically you want for Warlocks to have a one button that wins everything in terms of a defense (aka the godmode).

Warlocks are fine, learn to play.

[Rustjive]

That way the talent works as it actually should - makes enemies go elsewhere for those 8s.

In BGs I never see this, but I imagine in Arenas a Warlock running Sacrificial Pact and GoSac would get this effect - "Lock just sacced half his life for a shield that I'm just going to let fade".

I know this thread is about DB, but in that just mentioned regard I think the design behind SP is incredibly poor. Since I know Xelnath knows his anti-patterns, GoSac-ed SP suffers from horribly Unclear Optimization. If I Sacrifice at full HP I get the most benefit (for a higher cost though). This in turn gives the opponent incentive to swap. If he does this, then I sacced half my health for no benefit other than losing aggro. The longer I wait, the less damage I inflict on myself, but the smaller the shield, which leads to less incentive for the opponent to swap.

[alexw]

So basically you want for Warlocks to have a one button that wins everything in terms of a defense (aka the godmode).

Warlocks are fine, learn to play.

what the heck are you on about?

If your going to make such overarching statements then say in what way its OP.

[Deleted]

What people seem to forget is that we have demonic gateway at level 90. Basically blink with a 15 sec cooldown.

[Bluesftw]

just get soul link and pet sac for hp and dmg boost, you get spell interrupt if you sac felhunter anyways , win/win scenario

[Rustjive]

What people seem to forget is that we have demonic gateway at level 90. Basically blink with a 15 sec cooldown.

People have already spoken at length about it not being Arena-viable and it was designed not to be. The cast time on placing a gateway is 5s.

[Deleted]

what the heck are you on about?

If your going to make such overarching statements then say in what way its OP.

This threat is a big whine about how Warlocks have too much active button that all are bad. Sorry, but this is ridicoulous. Especially, when you are talking about 85 level. (Who cares about 85?)

[Bogdan]

To the people saying pets with SL are getting 1 shoted: Please learn how SL actually works, having SL actually makes your pet undying if you are getting healed, impossible to kill, unless you also get killed... If pet dies, you die, if you die, pet dies... For someone to basically 1 shot your pet, he'll need to do a damaging attack that does around 200,000 damage, since 40k of that damage will go to the pet and the remaining 160k will go to you, wich means instant death for both you and your pet...

[Deleted]

This threat is a big whine about how Warlocks have too much active button that all are bad. Sorry, but this is ridicoulous. Especially, when you are talking about 85 level. (Who cares about 85?)

Yes, it is evident from this statement that you are unable to read.

What changes from 85 -> 90 that makes warlocks less squishy? Nothing.

What is present at 85 that will remain unchanged at 90? Our self healing and passive defenses have been COMPLETELY REMOVED.

We're left with active cooldowns which don't even do the job that other classes active cooldowns do, are tied with massive drawbacks and have long cooldowns.

I needn't elaborate, if you were reading anything about these "whines" you'll know what i'm talking about...

But as you're just here to troll, and I took the bait, i'm sure you'll continue to QQ about our QQ.

[alexw]

This threat is a big whine about how Warlocks have too much active button that all are bad. Sorry, but this is ridicoulous. Especially, when you are talking about 85 level. (Who cares about 85?)

You really should not post when you don't know anything about that which your talking. You end up just making yourself look silly.

Dark bargain places a dot on you that basically increases damage taken to you by 50% for 8s in 8s time. That means because its percentage based it isn't going to matter a jot on what level you are. 50% is 50%

So now tell me in what way is a survival cooldown that makes it much much more likely that you will die 8s after you use it good? Except of course delaying your death by 8s.

Now please go troll somewhere else.




---------- Post added 2012-09-21 at 08:18 PM ----------

To the people saying pets with SL are getting 1 shoted: Please learn how SL actually works, having SL actually makes your pet undying if you are getting healed, impossible to kill, unless you also get killed... If pet dies, you die, if you die, pet dies... For someone to basically 1 shot your pet, he'll need to do a damaging attack that does around 200,000 damage, since 40k of that damage will go to the pet and the remaining 160k will go to you, wich means instant death for both you and your pet...

Umm they mean if you turn SL off which is what you want to do when there's lots of cleave damage around.

[Deleted]

Yes, it is evident from this statement that you are unable to read.

What changes from 85 -> 90 that makes warlocks less squishy? Nothing.

What is present at 85 that will remain unchanged at 90? Our self healing and passive defenses have been COMPLETELY REMOVED.

We're left with active cooldowns which don't even do the job that other classes active cooldowns do, are tied with massive drawbacks and have long cooldowns.

I needn't elaborate, if you were reading anything about these "whines" you'll know what i'm talking about...

But as you're just here to troll, and I took the bait, i'm sure you'll continue to QQ about our QQ.

1) Sure, others don't have massive drawbacks, others don't long cooldowns.
2) Self-healing removed? Since when?
3) Sorry, but still, it's just some baby crying from people that don't even have 90 level Warlocks.

But okay, I can repeat myself - learn your spellbook.

[Deleted]

People have already spoken at length about it not being Arena-viable and it was designed not to be. The cast time on placing a gateway is 5s.

I beg to differ. Played some 3v3 on beta and it's extremly strong. When the opposing team rushed us I used dark soul & lifeblood (2.4 sec cast) to get it off. Blades edge, nagrand and tolvir I could often cast it without dark soul.

Pretty sure demonic gateway will make warlock one of the best arena classes as it gives the whole team a lot of possibilites.

[Rustjive]

I beg to differ. Played some 3v3 on beta and it's extremly strong. When the opposing team rushed us I used dark soul & lifeblood (2.4 sec cast) to get it off. Blades edge, nagrand and tolvir I could often cast it without dark soul.

Pretty sure demonic gateway will make warlock one of the best arena classes as it gives the whole team a lot of possibilites.

The better it turns out to be the more likely it's going to be nerfed: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post18414051

It's a pre-raid, pre pull tool. I was *this* close to just disabling it in Arena. The cast-time means it has a non-trivial cost to deploy.

[alexw]

I beg to differ. Played some 3v3 on beta and it's extremly strong. When the opposing team rushed us I used dark soul & lifeblood (2.4 sec cast) to get it off. Blades edge, nagrand and tolvir I could often cast it without dark soul.

Pretty sure demonic gateway will make warlock one of the best arena classes as it gives the whole team a lot of possibilites.

Umm most of us won't have lifeblood. But either way the intent is to make it unusable in arena's or make it so hard to use that its hardly ever used. This is the stated intent.

So if it ends up being used often or is easy to use then it will be nurfed until it won't be.

[Deleted]

Umm most of us won't have lifeblood. But either way the intent is to make it unusable in arena's or make it so hard to use that its hardly ever used. This is the stated intent.

So if it ends up being used often or is easy to use then it will be nurfed until it won't be.

If Blizzard disables demonic gateway in arenas they better also disable symbiosis, alter time, blinding light, dispatch etc. I mean whats the point in creating an ability and then make it unusable in half the game?