[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Deleted]

I'm assuming you're using version 505-1, which was uploaded on Sept 12th, and thus doesn't include the recent hotfix to LB damage.

You're also focusing entirely on Patchwerk fights. UF can be used while moving, EB can't. Same for PE, which has distinct advantages over EB for burst situations.

And you're focussing on bad players. A good player knows how and when to move. No encounter consists of constant movin every 10 seconds. Most movement is predictable and surely not 30% of the fight.

And veven for a lot of movement every minute we have cds like SWG.

[Endus]

And you're focussing on bad players. A good player knows how and when to move. No encounter consists of constant movin every 10 seconds. Most movement is predictable and surely not 30% of the fight.

And now you're just talking BS.

If you're mid-cast on an EB and get targeted and have to move, or you have to delay casting an EB because you're already moving, then you're losing DPS compared to a Patchwerk sim. These are not predictable in such a way as to avoid any DPS loss. As literally anyone who has ever raided even at an LFR difficulty knows.

You're being deliberately disingenuous if you're claiming that only "bad players" can't do 100% optimal Patchwerk DPS at all times in all fights. Which is what you just said.

And veven for a lot of movement every minute we have cds like SWG.

That doesn't help for cases where the movement is more than once every 2 minutes, nor for cases where you're mid-cast and have to move ASAP.

[Deleted]

(...) nor for cases where you're mid-cast and have to move ASAP.

Spiritwalker's Grace is still ingame.

[Sarevokcz]

Spiritwalker's Grace is still ingame.

Oh, didnt even notice we can use it midcast now. Still, doesnt help when its more than once per 2 minutes. on heavy movement fights, EB definitely wont be the optimal option

[Endus]

Spiritwalker's Grace is still ingame.

Color me surprised, I knew it was off the GCD but I thought you had to interrupt the cast.

Point remains; it helps, but the idea that only "bad players" lose DPS compared to a pure Pathwerk fight due to movement? That's just wrong. I wasn't saying we had poor mobility options or something; I think Shaman are really strong on that front. Just that even 96% is less than 100%. You can't just take Patchwerk sims and assume you'll see that in-game. In some cases, they're WILDLY off base.

[rogas]

little question; using UE when Lava surge procs in EB/PE rotation... dps loss? dps gain?

[Protoman]

As others have pointed out.....sims can't predict everything, especially movement.....and while EB might seem like the clear winner, the combo of ULF's LB buff plus LB on the move via UL glyph could help make up the difference in highly mobile fights. There isn't really much point in trying to pick an obvious best choice as talents will vary from fight to fight......if I had to very broadly categorize the T6 talents I would say ULF for mobile fights, EB for stationary, and PE for burst/CD oriented fights.

[Deleted]

And now you're just talking BS.

If you're mid-cast on an EB and get targeted and have to move, or you have to delay casting an EB because you're already moving, then you're losing DPS compared to a Patchwerk sim. These are not predictable in such a way as to avoid any DPS loss. As literally anyone who has ever raided even at an LFR difficulty knows.

You're being deliberately disingenuous if you're claiming that only "bad players" can't do 100% optimal Patchwerk DPS at all times in all fights. Which is what you just said.



That doesn't help for cases where the movement is more than once every 2 minutes, nor for cases where you're mid-cast and have to move ASAP.

Did you actually ever play elemental in DS?

Morhchok: movement totally controllable and planable. No problem for EB.
Warlord: totally planable
Yorsah: totally planable
Hagara: only in frost phase a problem. But you have SWG for every frost phase and finally, you always have some moments to cast. But will be no bigge rproblem since you at worst have only few seconds without SWG.
Ultraxion: yeah, totally movement heavy
Warmaster: well that's the one fight you have a lot of movement so itmight be easier to take another talent. I'm still sure that a good elemental can time everything perfectly.
Spine: no movement
Madness: little movement, totally planable aside of parasites

So like i said, 7/8 ds heroic encounters are perfectly playable without any problems. Warmaster Blackhorn is te one fight where both might get close to each other and a very good elemental shaman should be using EB.

Even with EB, our mobility is very high. There's no need for 100% mobility. And even as you tell, they are getting close to each other on very heavy movement fights.

And personally i wouldn't want 100% mobility. Mobility is already too good, makes elemental too easy. PErhaps it's just my opionion, but i'd prefer some higher skill cap and more damage potential all along.

Anyways i can assure you that UF will be constantly ignored by elemental shamans - because it's very weak.

[Endus]

Did you actually ever play elemental in DS?

Morhchok: movement totally controllable and planable. No problem for EB.
Warlord: totally planable
Yorsah: totally planable
Hagara: only in frost phase a problem. But you have SWG for every frost phase and finally, you always have some moments to cast. But will be no bigge rproblem since you at worst have only few seconds without SWG.
Ultraxion: yeah, totally movement heavy
Warmaster: well that's the one fight you have a lot of movement so itmight be easier to take another talent. I'm still sure that a good elemental can time everything perfectly.
Spine: no movement
Madness: little movement, totally planable aside of parasites

So like i said, 7/8 ds heroic encounters are perfectly playable without any problems. Warmaster Blackhorn is te one fight where both might get close to each other and a very good elemental shaman should be using EB.

Even with EB, our mobility is very high. There's no need for 100% mobility. And even as you tell, they are getting close to each other on very heavy movement fights.

If you think 7/8 DS encounters you lose 0 DPS to movement if you're playing properly, you are, to be blunt, wrong.

And spell interrupted to move, any spell delayed until you stop moving, at any point in those fights, is lost DPS. Glyphing GoUL is lost DPS, for that matter.

And UF is more friendly to movement than EB. As sims would show you, if you bothered to actually run a variety of sims to test multiple possibilities, rather than picking one sim and claiming that it is Shaman Theorycraft Jesus.

[Nisala]

little question; using UE when Lava surge procs in EB/PE rotation... dps loss? dps gain?

DPS loss; you're using a GCD to effectively do 30% of a lava burst + a token initial hit from UE itself. I'm not entirely sure what UE's damage is at 90, but I am sure it's not high. We can anticipate that the 30% lava burst damage increase alongside the initial hit is the equivalent of perhaps half a lava burst, at best - which is obviously not worth a GCD.

[Deleted]

If you think 7/8 DS encounters you lose 0 DPS to movement if you're playing properly, you are, to be blunt, wrong.

And spell interrupted to move, any spell delayed until you stop moving, at any point in those fights, is lost DPS. Glyphing GoUL is lost DPS, for that matter.

And UF is more friendly to movement than EB. As sims would show you, if you bothered to actually run a variety of sims to test multiple possibilities, rather than picking one sim and claiming that it is Shaman Theorycraft Jesus.

You focussed just on one scenario that isn't realistic, but it made you post 'everything is fine'. Those fights you actually sim don't exist and will never exist...

I mean all about you is 'everything is fine and when it isn't, i still insist it's okay'. Fact is that with GoUL, our mobility is extremely high, so there's no need to reach even more mobility. No fight ingame needs 100% mobility.

And don't get silly. GoUL will be mandatory on all fights with movement since basically.

And UF is working also counter mobility. You would be forced to use it every time it's ready (aside of ascendance), meaning you can't use it while moving. Right now, you can use it occasionally while moving without real dps loss. If you don't use GoUL, perfect gameplay means you can overcome little movement with shocks and UE and LS proccs. UE being gone because you have to use it on CD is working counter mobility.




EDIT: And just liek expected, light movement fights still heavily favor EB over UF, by about the same margin. And even on high movement fights, EB is still 2k dps ahead.

I actually don't believe you simmed those at all. EB even wins on heavy movement according to sims.

Please give me your profiles that show UF ahead of EB in any possible scenario.

[oblivionx]

If LB scales well, it eventually can make UF more competitive on standstill fights and a winner on movement fights. Adding a viable insta to our rotation can't hurt.

[Deleted]

Everytime I visit this thread, I see Endus getting into a "debate" with someone

I wonder what it would be like if EB increased the stat that you have highest, instead of just random crit/mastery/haste :O

[MinoEnha]

Does anyone know if Fire elemental still takes snapshot of your stats,or will he update during a fight?
Maybe this question was already answered,but i couldn't find it,I apologise in advance if that may be the case.

[Deleted]

Does anyone know if Fire elemental still takes snapshot of your stats,or will he update during a fight?
Maybe this question was already answered,but i couldn't find it,I apologise in advance if that may be the case.

It updates dynamically throughout its duration.

[binkenstein]

You focussed just on one scenario that isn't realistic, but it made you post 'everything is fine'. Those fights you actually sim don't exist and will never exist...

I mean all about you is 'everything is fine and when it isn't, i still insist it's okay'. Fact is that with GoUL, our mobility is extremely high, so there's no need to reach even more mobility. No fight ingame needs 100% mobility.

And don't get silly. GoUL will be mandatory on all fights with movement since basically.

And UF is working also counter mobility. You would be forced to use it every time it's ready (aside of ascendance), meaning you can't use it while moving. Right now, you can use it occasionally while moving without real dps loss. If you don't use GoUL, perfect gameplay means you can overcome little movement with shocks and UE and LS proccs. UE being gone because you have to use it on CD is working counter mobility.

EDIT: And just liek expected, light movement fights still heavily favor EB over UF, by about the same margin. And even on high movement fights, EB is still 2k dps ahead.

I actually don't believe you simmed those at all. EB even wins on heavy movement according to sims.

Please give me your profiles that show UF ahead of EB in any possible scenario.

I plan on leaving GoUL on permanently, mostly because there's not really anything like a stationary fight in T14 from what I understand.

The problem with mobile UF is that you have to take GoUL, which weakens the bonus you get from the talent. On the flip side, it also increases the strength of your mobile DPS, so the net effect will be minimal (ie: not enough to take it out of third place).

The difference between talents under any fight condition is fairly minor. We're talking less than 2% here, but I do expect that EB will remain on top as I don't think there's enough movement in any fight to cut into its casting time heavily. Noted that this is without considering the hotfix, which is going to be a ~2% improvement, so things will need to be re-run.

[Rawfury]

I think im going to have the guys to change race to pandaren from troll. I fear ill regret it in the long run but im up for looking "refreshing" and can see my feet.

[Nisala]

I think im going to have the guys to change race to pandaren from troll. I fear ill regret it in the long run but im up for looking "refreshing" and can see my feet.

According to EJ theorycrafting you'll be taking a (tiny) DPS loss doing that - but if you need to look at something fresh then go for it!

[Manu9]

According to EJ theorycrafting you'll be taking a (tiny) DPS loss doing that - but if you need to look at something fresh then go for it!

Same here, but from Goblin, the problem is that Trolls/Goblins don't need external things to benefit from their racials, but you have to have a food buff if you're a Pandaren. A bit annoying out of raids.

[Delanath]

Yeah, I was thinking they should implement something like the reusable/persists-through-death flasks that alchemists have access too for their everyday wanderings to fix this. A Never-ending Noodle Bowl or something ...