Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure?

[Redblade]

They spent ~$200m developing the game (holy crap!). Currently they have sold ~2.45m in game copies (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/s...-old-republic/). Even if they began with 1.7m (their highest sub count) subs from day one through today (which we know isn't even close to reality) they would have made 9 (months) * 15 ($ / month, max price) * 1,700,000 = 229,500,000. That would cover the development costs by 29.5m, but as we know, the sub number isn't even close to an average of 1.7m over 9 months.

You then have to factor in continued development, maintenance, and support costs. The only thing I don't have a number for is peripherals (shirts, toys, whatever), but I don't think it matters. I don't see how they could have covered their development costs.

You seem to be forgetting the 2 million * $60 that makes for 120 million (100 after store cuts and what not I guess) returned through initial sales, they have for sure broken even by now but it's far from the money maker EA set out for.

[RoninaThorstone]

You seem to be forgetting the 2 million * $60 that makes for 120 million (100 after store cuts and what not I guess) returned through initial sales, they have for sure broken even by now but it's far from the money maker EA set out for.

Since the figure we have is "less than 200 million" and most figures put it closer to 120 million...

Oh and they sold 2.4 million boxes.

[rayden54]

I do think it failed. However, I don't mean because of how many people play it/don't play it or how much money it made. I think it failed in the design stage.

This is a Star Wars MMO. They needed to sell it as a Star Wars game for Star Wars fans. Not as an MMO for MMO fans (who might or might not like Star Wars). There problem is they tried to do both. MMO fans want to rush through the game so they can play the end game. If the game doesn't have one available when THEY get to max level, they gripe. They don't really care about the story (it's just a bonus). They don't care that the average Star Wars fan isn't going to be at their skill level. If THEY think the game is too easy, they gripe.

On the other hand, the average Star Wars fan is going to take their time to enjoy the story. Most of them probably would be new to MMOs. They wouldn't care that there isn't any raiding available for the first few weeks. And they certainly won't want to be griefed by the Hardcores. They also might not be comfortable with a monthly fee.

Honestly, I think they should have dumped the hardcore MMO people from the get go, and just made a good Star Wars game with an ongoing story.

[notorious98]

No. http://www.gametrailers.com/side-mis...ly-200-million

They spent ~$200m developing the game (holy crap!). Currently they have sold ~2.45m in game copies (http://www.vgchartz.com/game/31584/s...-old-republic/). Even if they began with 1.7m (their highest sub count) subs from day one through today (which we know isn't even close to reality) they would have made 9 (months) * 15 ($ / month) * 1,700,000 = 229,500,000. That would cover the development costs by 29.5m, but as we know, the sub number isn't even close to an average of 1.7m over 9 months.

You then have to factor in continued development, maintenance, and support costs. The only thing I don't have a number for is peripherals (shirts, toys, whatever), but I don't think it matters. I don't see how they could have covered their development costs.

This is mathematically inaccurate based on speculation. First, an article from the LA Times doesn't make anything factual. There's no actual evidence to back up the claim, it's just something they wrote in the first paragraph of the piece to preface their article. Like I said. If you actually read the article, there's nothing factual behind their claim of how much was spent. Second, if they sold 2.4 million copies at $60 a piece, that means they brought in $144 million on box sales alone. Even with your speculative $200 million price tag, that brings the amount needed to break even at $56 million. That's essentially 4 months with an average of 1 million subscribers.

[Biged781]

You seem to be forgetting the 2 million * $60 that makes for 120 million (100 after store cuts and what not I guess) returned through initial sales, they have for sure broken even by now but it's far from the money maker EA set out for.

Crap, I forgot to multiply.... oops.

You're right; 2.45m copies sold at $60 / copy = 147,000,000. So yeah, it would seem that they covered initial development costs. At this point they are losing money however as they said they need 500k subs to break even at this point. I assume that means month to month costs.

But yeah, it doesn't matter. It's not anywhere near what their goal was, so a business failure it is.

[KDSwain]

The controls threw me off. Too used to WoW I guess.

[Biged781]

This is mathematically inaccurate based on speculation. First, an article from the LA Times doesn't make anything factual. There's no actual evidence to back up the claim, it's just something they wrote in the first paragraph of the piece to preface their article. Like I said. If you actually read the article, there's nothing factual behind their claim of how much was spent. Second, if they sold 2.4 million copies at $60 a piece, that means they brought in $144 million on box sales alone. Even with your speculative $200 million price tag, that brings the amount needed to break even at $56 million. That's essentially 4 months with an average of 1 million subscribers.

Yup, I screwed up the box calculation as Alyssa pointed out. However, I don't see any evidence that the development cost is inaccurate. If you find something then please post it, but your argument that boils down to "The LA Times is making shit up" is nonsense.

They say it's accurate, you say it's not. I'm inclined to believe them until you can prove otherwise. You are also neglecting to appreciate the month-to-month development and maintenance costs.

Again though, it makes no difference. It didn't come anywhere near meeting the goals that EA and BioWare had for it, so it is a failure from a business perspective, that much is not up for debate.

[RoninaThorstone]

But yeah, it doesn't matter. It's not anywhere near what their goal was, so a business failure it is.

Their goal was 1 million subscribers so they had that for a while. We now know its between 500k and 1 million.

Also, the "500k to break even" was before all the lay offs. The cost to keep the game going is probably a fraction of what it was before they gutted the dev and QnA team.

[Biged781]

Their goal was 1 million subscribers so they had that for a while. We now know its between 500k and 1 million.

Also, the "500k to break even" was before all the lay offs. The cost to keep the game going is probably a fraction of what it was before they gutted the dev and QnA team.

I'm certain that their goal of 1m subs was not "1m subs for 6 months" (or however long they held that number). It's an MMO, not a short lived game. Numbers continue to decline dramatically, now they're going F2P after already changing the subscription model.

Also, the "500k to break even" was before all the lay offs. The cost to keep the game going is probably a fraction of what it was before they gutted the dev and QnA team.

Yeah that's true. It also speaks pretty poorly about the current state of the game. I don't know how you can consider an MMO a success when, after less than a year, much of the team has been laid off, their sub numbers have taken a huge dive, and they dropped the subscription model entirely.

I'm not against the game on a personal level. I love the Star Wars Universe and they did the story telling really well... but that's about where the upsides end. I felt like I was playing a poor-man's substitute for WoW, so I decided to just go back to WoW.

[BukkaKid]

The game didn't fail, the fans did. Overhype is what did the game in. I hope that EA gets their act together and polishes it up, it's still a worthwhile game to purchase and play for just the single player storylines itself. Past that though it really needs content, polished and tested.

Everyone should cheer competing games to do well, competition breeds excellence. Companies would do better to keep their players instead of growing stagnant and complacent.

[Itisamuh]

I would definitely not consider SWTOR a failure. It has flaws, for sure, but so does anything else. I think disgruntled but still addicted WoW fans, hoping for SWTOR to be able to replace WoW for them, are the only ones that propped it up in that light, and gave it unrealistic expectations. The people who bought and played it simply for what it is were, for the most part, pretty happy with it. It has a great story and leveling experience, and the option of traditional MMO end game, which is why I think free to play is a good decision for them whether they have enough players or not. WoW fans constantly doing a compare and contrast are the only people putting games like SWTOR and Rift down, and it really is a shame.

[RoninaThorstone]

I'm not against the game on a personal level. I love the Star Wars Universe and they did the story telling really well... but that's about where the upsides end. I felt like I was playing a poor-man's substitute for WoW, so I decided to just go back to WoW.

I'm not subscribed to swtor as of like a month ago. So I have no stake in this either.

However, I think that the word "failure" needs to be backed up thoroughly.

I think that the game was launched prematurely (We now know that EA forced it out.)
Preformed above biowares expectations and below EAs
EA decided that they wanted to make money on less than 500k subscribers and gutted bioware Austin.
There is evidence that EA decided that they would switch to F2P as early as 1.2. At which point swtor still had 1.4 million players.

The game is making money and will continue to do so. EA would shut it down otherwise. They are a company devoted to making a profit.

The only point at which swtor would be a "failure" is when it ceases to be profitable and thus is shutdown. That's my opinion at least.

edit: Also noticed that people are saying bioware could have made more money making something else. It should be noted that Bioware austin was made specifically for swtor. They did nothing else. Other bioware departments are unaffected by bioware austin except maybe a bit fearful that EA will do to them as they did to austin.

[Edge-]

The game didn't fail, the fans did. Overhype is what did the game in. I hope that EA gets their act together and polishes it up, it's still a worthwhile game to purchase and play for just the single player storylines itself. Past that though it really needs content, polished and tested.

Everyone should cheer competing games to do well, competition breeds excellence. Companies would do better to keep their players instead of growing stagnant and complacent.

Hype was driven higher and higher by EA marketing. They made no efforts to control hype and create realistic expectations for the game. That's entirely on them. They failed to meet the expectations that they set.

Everyone DOES cheer companies when they do well, this isn't one of those cases unfortunately. By you see tons of positive feedback for companies like Trion, Runic, Grinding Gear Games, Meteor, Double Fine and others that all are very successful and put out awesome products.

And seriously? Are you blaming fans? That's the biggest cop-out ever.

[Ofoz]

Personally I was really looking forward to a Sci-Fi MMO. Anarchy Online was my first MMO and I really prefer Sci-Fi over medieval type fantasy so SWTOR was what I wanted.

But when I logged into SWTOR for the first time I was presented with:

The most horrible auction house I had ever seen.
Graphics that did not match the ads and videos I had seen.
I couldn't invite people to my friends list unless they were online.
I couldn't invite people to a group from the guild list.
The server was automatically giving me raid loot that I already had and other people in the group still needed, no /roll.
No ready check.
PvP on Ilum was so bad that they just gave up on it.
Too many loading screens to go anywhere.
NPC's that were just artwork and you couldn't interact with the majority of them. The place felt dead.
Planets that herded you through the zones. Not a lot of exploration.

First impressions mean a lot and SWTOR didn't do very good in that area. Some of these may seem simple and trivial but they are BASIC features people should expect in a new MMO. I don't expect any new MMO to have the content WoW has but there are several BASIC features that need to be there. This game had none of them. I now have 2 years of pre-paid time in Rift and I am in the Planetside 2 beta. I couldn't be happier.

If you still enjoy SWTOR I wish you the best and I hope the game turns around, but I consider it a failure.

[notorious98]

They say it's accurate, you say it's not. I'm inclined to believe them until you can prove otherwise. You are also neglecting to appreciate the month-to-month development and maintenance costs.

Actually, the onus isn't upon me to prove anything. I never made any claims about how much they did or did not spend, the LA Times did. It's THEIR job to prove that their figures are right, not my job to disprove their figures. You can believe them if you'd like, but I choose to believe things that are based in fact. There's no facts behind their numbers, just speculation.

Take a look at ActiBlizz's quarterlies. The cost of maintenance is not much. The month to month development? Well....what development? I think you're overestimating the amount of money going out as opposed to coming in.

[-Ethos-]

Honestly, i think the game would've done better had most of the players not gone into it with the mindset of a single player game (or, if they crafted it that way from the beginning and not an MMO).

I wouldnt neccessarily call it a failure, it did innovate in several key areas - much like DCUO but keeping millions of disgruntled or disenchanted players happy isnt an easy task.

[Buxton McGraff]

I love the game. The PVP is pretty fun, the leveling is fun, the companions are cool, the questing and story makes you really involved with your character and it builds pretty deep connections. The PVE is alright, and I'm hoping they build upon that in the future.

[iceberg265]

Of course it is not a failure, but considering it a failure is a form of an opinion, so if people want to think if that way they are welcome to their own opinion, even if it is stupid.

[Edge-]

Honestly, i think the game would've done better had most of the players not gone into it with the mindset of a single player game (or, if they crafted it that way from the beginning and not an MMO).

They did? I mean, I know the reaction from fans was "this plays like a single player game that happens to have other people", but I don't know a single person that went in with that mindset.

[RoninaThorstone]

I don't think you can blame the players beyond not researching the game. And those people left after the first month.

Anyone who stayed after that most likely left due to the f2p change, slow updates, lack of information, EAs aggressive destruction of bioware... You know. Regular stuff.

We can't blame players for everything.