Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure?

[Deleted]

I don't think it is a failure... well,certainly it is not a humongous success for sure, but it still has active players. I have a few friends who still play it.
Now if the expectation was that SWTOR was going to be the WoW killer,... well, that is pretty much settled as impossible.

I really hate when new games, with new features, are announced and get right away be named as the "Wowkiller": it's a guaranteed recipe for disaster;
Games are overhyped beyond reasonable levels and fail to retain players after the first 2 months, after launch.
Being called wowkiller is not a good thing, for a videogame.

[Antipathy]

I really don't see why they needed to bring up WoW to begin with, regardless of what it meant. I personally find it annoying when a company decides to make slogans and other types of promotional stuff referencing other products in the same market when the point of product advertisement is to show the merits of their product and nothing else.

Regardless if they are mocking, respecting, liking, or are even fearing WoW (it can also be neither of those options, but that's not my point either way), that they acknowledge the game in their advertisement just makes the shadow WoW casts way more apparent. To me, that is not what I would like to see if I wanted my product to stand out from the rest, since I think it screams weakness.

You clearly aren't in the target demographic if you would be offended or find that slogan annoying. the target demographic has always been Vanilla/BC veterans who disliked wow's development direction and left but haven't been satisfied by alternatives in the market.

As to your point about weakness, I think its quite realistic and meaningful that a company recognizes another for being the benchmark or the standard in an industry (look at samsung and apple) - you don't see people walking around with Samsung phones with diminished penises because the iphone is the industrial leader - only in the MMO sphere, I tell ya.

WoW is the behemoth, and there's a lot to be had on its coattails, (a testament to the game). those slogans woke up a lot of players who had ditched MMO's for a while and turned their heads in Rift's Direction. If Current WoW fans have an issue with it, the developers don't care. they didn't make the game to lure current subscribers and they certainly haven't released 10 loaded content patches to impress players who aren't interested in the game or think negatively of it because of a marketing gimmick, they did that because their current sub base asked for it, much like they keep introducing features that they ask for - and merge low pop servers without having an ego about it.

For all intents and purposes, the marketing system has worked - Fans of the game are extremely dedicated to Rift and you'll find that a lot of players have pre-purchased game time for up to a year in advance due to the subscriber loyalty program (not to mention being able to obtain the expansion free that way) - you can tell from the costumes and mounts people have in game, as well as the titles.

EDIT: this is the SWTOR sub-forum and I don't understand why a discussion about the state of that game has turned into a Rift Bash-a-thon. There's a RIFT sub-forum right next door, everyone should feel free to go there and talk or bash RIFT to their heart's content.

[notorious98]

As to your point about weakness, I think its quite realistic and meaningful that a company recognizes another for being the benchmark or the standard in an industry (look at samsung and apple) - you don't see people walking around with Samsung phones with diminished penises because the iphone is the industrial leader - only in the MMO sphere, I tell ya.

I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be "Peni".

EDIT: this is the SWTOR sub-forum and I don't understand why a discussion about the state of that game has turned into a Rift Bash-a-thon. There's a RIFT sub-forum right next door, everyone should feel free to go there and talk or bash RIFT to their heart's content.

I'm trying to figure out exactly how this thread got derailed into "WoW vs. Rift" myself. Is it because people got tired of arguing against logic so they decided to move on to a new topic of conversation that involves why "X MMO" isn't better than "WoW, ZOMG THA GRATEST EM EM OH EVAR"?

---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 06:21 PM ----------

I don't think it is a failure... well,certainly it is not a humongous success for sure, but it still has active players. I have a few friends who still play it.
Now if the expectation was that SWTOR was going to be the WoW killer,... well, that is pretty much settled as impossible.

I really hate when new games, with new features, are announced and get right away be named as the "Wowkiller": it's a guaranteed recipe for disaster;
Games are overhyped beyond reasonable levels and fail to retain players after the first 2 months, after launch.
Being called wowkiller is not a good thing, for a videogame.

Anybody who thought the game was going to be a killer of any MMO was plain stupid. Same thing goes for Rift, GW2, Tera, The Secret World or even the Elder Scrolls MMO.

---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 06:30 PM ----------

I just feel their cheap jabs at a more superior, longer founded game.

Having played WoW from early BC until Cata, I will say that, currently, Rift is the superior game. The only thing WoW has on it is being around longer and a more robust fanbase.

From what I have sen of Rift, it looks amazing, and if they appealed to the World of Warcraft player base more, rather then hit at it with these small jokes, they might get a more popular game. After all we're very similar groups of people, but it is just the medium of our entertainment that is different.

This is the problem here. You're under the assumption that Trion believes they need to have the more popular game. You're also under the assumption that they're attempting to make and market a product that appeals to the masses like WoW. In a way, you're right. Except they're doing it through hard work and massive content updates every couple months or so. They don't need to market to the WoW fanbase. They just need to market to the disenfranchised WoW player who wants a company that seems to give a shit about their product. People like me.

---------- Post added 2012-09-29 at 06:42 PM ----------

I say that mostly because EA already had to transition it over to a F2P model they clearly never intended for the game. It's a hard thing for anyone who bought it to swallow, though it's not their fault. They didn't design the game, they didn't create any of its inherent flaws, and so on. A lot of times something called post-purchase rationalization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-pu...ationalization) causes us to feel like we should justify buying something long after it has disappointed us. Especially something that feels expensive like a subscription-based MMO.

This makes no sense. Post purchase rationalization would make more sense for the gamer who continues to pay the subscription. People who bought the game and quit know there's reasons why they quit. We haven't overlooked the flaws nor do we have cognitive bias. Just because I don't believe that it's a failure doesn't mean that the game didn't have enough problems to make me quit. Which, by the way, means I threw however much money down the toilet. The reason why the game isn't a failure is because it's highly likely that EA made their money back already and the game became profitable to an extent. It's just not as profitable as they'd like it to be. That isn't the definition of "failure". "Failure" would be more like spending $200 million on the product and only receiving $50 million in return. "Failure" would be more along the lines of a big budget box office bomb. For example, Cutthroat Island. The movie did so poorly, it bankrupted the studio that made it.

[schippie]

Dont think you could call it a failure yes it didnt do anywhere near as well as EA expected or bioware for that matter.
Half of the development team is gone, the Oldest BW devs are gone etc etc.

Ah well.. i hate using the world failure.. lets just say it has not done BW any good in anyways. And while i dont mind it going bad for EA im sad to see what has happend to BW

[Hellfury]

SWTOR utterly failed at the purpose it has been made for: to kill wow.

No you cant kill WOW only Blizzard atm can kill wow by shutting down the servers.

What EA/bioware wanted was a slice of the MMO sweet money filled pie, they started to take a big bite at start but at now they just get crumbs becuase they failed to deliver content at a steady rate.

[Eggoman]

I would say yes SWTOR is a failure. After finishing the personal story every single person in my guild quit and hasn't gone back no matter how much free play they throw at us. I find that amazing, especially during the downtime this summer when good games did not come out until late August and now September. The story is good but everything else is so bland it couldn't attract 10 people with nothing to do even though we had to pay nothing for it. I don't know what they an do to change it but oh well.

[Frozen Death Knight]

You clearly aren't in the target demographic if you would be offended or find that slogan annoying. the target demographic has always been Vanilla/BC veterans who disliked wow's development direction and left but haven't been satisfied by alternatives in the market.

As to your point about weakness, I think its quite realistic and meaningful that a company recognizes another for being the benchmark or the standard in an industry (look at samsung and apple) - you don't see people walking around with Samsung phones with diminished penises because the iphone is the industrial leader - only in the MMO sphere, I tell ya.

WoW is the behemoth, and there's a lot to be had on its coattails, (a testament to the game). those slogans woke up a lot of players who had ditched MMO's for a while and turned their heads in Rift's Direction. If Current WoW fans have an issue with it, the developers don't care. they didn't make the game to lure current subscribers and they certainly haven't released 10 loaded content patches to impress players who aren't interested in the game or think negatively of it because of a marketing gimmick, they did that because their current sub base asked for it, much like they keep introducing features that they ask for - and merge low pop servers without having an ego about it.

For all intents and purposes, the marketing system has worked - Fans of the game are extremely dedicated to Rift and you'll find that a lot of players have pre-purchased game time for up to a year in advance due to the subscriber loyalty program (not to mention being able to obtain the expansion free that way) - you can tell from the costumes and mounts people have in game, as well as the titles.

EDIT: this is the SWTOR sub-forum and I don't understand why a discussion about the state of that game has turned into a Rift Bash-a-thon. There's a RIFT sub-forum right next door, everyone should feel free to go there and talk or bash RIFT to their heart's content.

I would be as annoyed if I saw that kind of stuff in any other product advertisement that is not a video game, even if I do not use it.

Also, I do not care about Rift and do not really have any real opinion about the game itself, since I have not really looked it up, at all. Plus, I have no quarrel with Trion, whatsoever. Even if I find their advertisements to be less than stellar, I do not really care about them as a company.

It's ironic that you don't understand why the thread turned into a "Rift bash-a-thon", as you yourself put it. I only commented on the commercial, you made a 5 paragraph long post about things I never really talked about.

[notorious98]

I would be as annoyed if I saw that kind of stuff in any other product advertisement that is not a video game, even if I do not use it.

Also, I do not care about Rift and do not really have any real opinion about the game itself, since I have not really looked it up, at all. Plus, I have no quarrel with Trion, whatsoever. Even if I find their advertisements to be less than stellar, I do not really care about them as a company.

It's ironic that you don't understand why the thread turned into a "Rift bash-a-thon", as you yourself put it. I only commented on the commercial, you made a 5 paragraph long post about things I never really talked about.

Politicians do it all the time. It's a form of advertising yourself. Pretending that WoW isn't the big boy on the block, as far as subscriptions are concerned, is basically burying your head in the sand. The fact that they had the audacity to say their name was a stand up moment for many people. Whether it annoys you or not, it's an effective form of advertisement because, one way or another, it makes you notice them. And, like they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Besides, they were never going to sell the game to you anyway, even if they didn't use that marketing campaign. So you weren't who they were marketing towards.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Politicians do it all the time. It's a form of advertising yourself. Pretending that WoW isn't the big boy on the block, as far as subscriptions are concerned, is basically burying your head in the sand. The fact that they had the audacity to say their name was a stand up moment for many people. Whether it annoys you or not, it's an effective form of advertisement because, one way or another, it makes you notice them. And, like they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Besides, they were never going to sell the game to you anyway, even if they didn't use that marketing campaign. So you weren't who they were marketing towards.

So any company making an MMO who did not mention WoW in their own advertisement pretended the game did not exist? Really, that is what it sounds like to me when making a statement like that.

As for it being a stand up moment, that's not how I see it, at least. If some people think this was good advertisement, good for them. Did not really help selling it for me, though. If Trion wishes to alieniate some people to try out their game, it's not my problem, at least. It's not like the commercial was the deciding point for me to buy the game, anyway, since I had other reasons not to (mostly because I was not looking for an MMO game to play, anyway).

[notorious98]

So any company making an MMO who did not mention WoW in their own advertisement pretended the game did not exist? Really, that is what it sounds like to me when making a statement like that.

As for it being a stand up moment, that's not how I see it, at least. If some people think this was good advertisement, good for them. Did not really help selling it for me, though. If Trion wishes to alieniate some people to try out their game, it's not my problem, at least. It's not like the commercial was the deciding point for me to buy the game, anyway, since I had other reasons not to (mostly because I was not looking for an MMO game to play, anyway).

Which goes right back around to the fact that they weren't marketing to you, so it didn't matter one way or another to them how you took it or how you felt about it. Just like every other person just like you who weren't going to buy the game anyway.

You may not look at it as being a stand up moment, but that's exactly what it was. As for other MMOs not mentioning WoW, yeah, they are burying their head in the sand. Every MMO that comes out gets the comparison anyway. So why not at least come out and acknowledge that?

[Antipathy]

I would be as annoyed if I saw that kind of stuff in any other product advertisement that is not a video game, even if I do not use it.

Also, I do not care about Rift and do not really have any real opinion about the game itself, since I have not really looked it up, at all. Plus, I have no quarrel with Trion, whatsoever. Even if I find their advertisements to be less than stellar, I do not really care about them as a company.

It's ironic that you don't understand why the thread turned into a "Rift bash-a-thon", as you yourself put it. I only commented on the commercial, you made a 5 paragraph long post about things I never really talked about.

In Summary; you don't like it, know nothing about it, don't want to know anything about it. when it is explained, your response is to accuse the poster of being the cause of a diversion in topic because of writing out a 5 paragraph long post about a subject that several posters in this thread have already raised, including yourself. All of this despite the fact that this is a SWTOR thread and you dedicated 2 paragraphs to give us a dissertation about why you don't like Rift's messaging.

Gotcha.

[Deleted]

EA expected SWTOR to have over 10 million subscribers, after 9 months they got less than a million. How is that not a failure ?

[Frozen Death Knight]

In Summary; you don't like it, know nothing about it, don't want to know anything about it. when it is explained, your response is to accuse the poster of being the cause of a diversion in topic because of writing out a 5 paragraph long post about a subject that several posters in this thread have already raised, including yourself. All of this despite the fact that this is a SWTOR thread and you dedicated 2 paragraphs to give us a dissertation about why you don't like Rift's messaging.

Gotcha.

Someone mentioned it, so I responded. Don't see how anything of what I have said is bashing Rift, exactly, especially when I said that I do not have anything else to say about the game or Trion. If that's your interpretation of what I said, roll with it, then. I don't care.

Much of what you said to me had barely anything to do with my post. I really don't like commercial tactics like that, so even if that is how you wish to look at it, it's not how I see it. I can acknowledge your position and that there are people who did think like that when looking at that commercial, but that does not mean that I have to agree with it.

[RoninaThorstone]

These general "fail vs success" threads are always such garbage.

If you have a legitimate issue with the game you can make a specific thread about that issue. Not some vague crap that people can interpret 100 different ways.

IE: I don't like what they did with space. I've made many threads about my frustration with that issue. Not some all or nothing "IZ DIS FAILAR?" thread.

---------- Post added 2012-09-30 at 02:49 PM ----------

Furthermore, what does this thread add? How is it constructive?

[SirRobin]

I have got so freaking confused about the whole budget thing for this game. It's like no one can agree on how much actually was used to develop this darn game.

Well there are probably several different numbers you can use. There was a lot of "outsourcing" on this project so what do you count and what do you, well, not? They also opened an entire studio to make it, in Austin. Do you count all of that building, renovating, what have you? When you have the CFO, no less, for one of the biggest companies in the industry saying its their "biggest development project, ever, in the history of the company?" That's a lot of green. How about all those voice actors? Count them? That's before we get into all the advertising too. Lets not forget EA spending over half a billion buying BioWare around a year after they started working on TOR.

Even resounding successes, like WoW, are not very talkative when it comes to how much they spend making the game. Now for a "troubled" product like TOR? One that EA's own boss was citing development costs on multiple earning's calls prior to launch? Johnny would probably rather have his fingernails ripped out, than admit just how "much" they spent getting TOR from concept to launch.

[RoninaThorstone]

EA expected SWTOR to have over 10 million subscribers, after 9 months they got less than a million. How is that not a failure ?

Because making stuff up about EA expecting swtor to have over 10 million subscribers doesn't make it a failure.

I can think of like... One guy in middle managment who thought that swtor would have 10 million. I think it was the CEO of EA who said that they didn't expect it to dethrone wow before the game launched. And bioware appears to have been aiming for 1 million or more.

So... I guess if you want to make up standards based on your own imaginings...

[Grym]

Depends from which point are looking at the definition of "failure".

From Investment point of view:
It is a huge failure, and no, "making a profit" is NOT, and NEVER IS, good enough. When a project is proposed, it will have a risk factor and expected returns, there will be targets to reach, the higher the investment, the higher the risk, the higher that target will be in order to compensate, and the game nowhere reaches (or near) the target they would need for such investment, therefore it is a failure in terms of investment.

From a gamer point of view:
Depends. If you are pretty casual, and "end game" was never that big of a thing for you, this game could be a success. The leveling environment, the fully voice acting, the multiple choice in making a decision, all of those brings a very different leveling experience. The game is relatively easier than some of the MMO out there, even Nightmare mode wasn't as hard as WoW's HC mode, so should be rather achivable by most players. However I do constantly have heard complains about not enough end game contents (or difficult contents), so if you are hardcore gamer (HC raider and such), then then game is probably a failure.

[rodroy323]

Yes, considering the hype by the company and the amount of money invested into it. It is a failure.

[probert]

Its a failure based on the scope and size of audience they were targeting.

In particular, their inability to keep players engaged with their game past the 30/60/90 day mark. They completely failed to predict a) the required volume of ongoing content to maintain a subscription base, and b) content to keep players engaged and playing at the end game.

So yes, the game is a failure from an MMO standpoint.

The leveling experience is solid, and the stories are great. It looks and feels like a Star Wars product. The game, overall, is very good quality and worth a $60 price of a stand alone RPG.

I'm guessing the game would have been MUCH more successful, had it been broken into 2 different KOTOR sequels (light and dark), and then some DLCs for different class stories.

[iceberg265]

If your definition of failure is the second best selling MMO in the west, then yes, it is a failure. SWTOR is the most fun MMO currently on the market, so if your definition of failure includes fun, then yes it is a failure.

If you aren't an idiot, then no, it is not a failure.