WW monk ..worried for PVP

[Redbtk]

The monk is an extremely fun class, loving PvE with him, but.. that's half the game for me. Let me start off by saying that the mobility everyone thinks us Monks have, is kind of half true. Sure I can fly around a dungeon like a madman, but that doesn't matter at all when it comes to PvP. Stopping a roll/flying kick seems to be way too easy. A charge/root/stun anything can stop us dead in our path. Roll should work more like a charge, take damage while moving, but can't be rooted/slowed or anything in the process.

When it comes to cooldowns, we have the silliest CD's for "Survival". They just all feel like PvE tank talents. The "90% damage reduction" in the tooltip sounds nice in theory, but lets see:

Zen Meditation - Not much to say, this can be canceled way too easily. Maybe if it took X amount of damage to break the channel?
Dampen Harm - Best option out of all, but it's just flat damage reduction.
Diffuse Magic - Can I rely on facing a lock/spriest in arenas to make the most of it? No. Also just turns to a damage reduction..but only magic. Way too situational.
Touch of Karma - Definitely good, easily avoided though. Only effects one target, so while said target holds off on me, his buddy will continue finishing me.

Fortifying Brew is good as well, but I'm not a fan of "increased hp" buff for a situation like this. At this point, that only increased my HP by about 63-65k, which is only a few extra hits. Look at DK's IBF, that's 12 seconds of stun immunity..come on now. Understandably, you can't win them all..

That being said, we have no 'great' survival buff that really helps us. Just plain damage reduction. On top of this, I feel we have damage that's right up there with any other class, but it takes way too much prep work. Tiger Palm is easy, and at the same time, it can be a hassle to keep up. I feel it's equivalent to rogues never getting a talent to refresh their Slice and Dice. It's just a crucial part of our DPS, and it wears off so quick. And Tigereye Brew takes so long to stack up, every 4 chi used is 1 out of 10(max) stacks. Backloaded buff, that great...not. Also, having to waste so many GCD's on Tiger Palm for the Buff (tiger power x3) when the attack itself hits for peanuts.

WW is just so gimpy in PVP. We are squishy as hell, have minimal control in a fight and no buff to save ourselves in PvP. Disable and grapple weapon are the only good things Monks have to show for themselves in PvP. Good luck surviving a rogue opening up on you. Leg Sweep needs to be a primary ability for WW. Making us pick between that and making our Paralysis ranged is just ridiculously wrong to me. Leg Sweep is nice for an "Oh sh*t" moment so I can actually get some sort of an escape..

Yes, this is just based off BGs, so hopefully in a 3v3 today it won't feel as bad. But going based off doing BGs, this is beyond pathetic. Blown up INSTANTLY.

In the end, I hope I'm wrong and this class works great in 3v3's today.


TLDR - We need better survival buffs other than flat damage, and some sort of immunity to put some fear in an enemy so they know I have a good defense to their offense. Tiger power is a terrible idea for buffing our dps to give use to the ability, hits horribly low, and wears off too fast. God forbid your hit misses.

[flzk]

diffuse magic seems totaly fucked up, today i made my first battlegrounds and it didnt clear die magic effects and didnt throw them back so i dont know if it works with lock/sp dots

[Rotted]

You might also find, peoples mentality is a big issue,

They see a new class, think back in time (OMG DKS OP), then decide their going to nuke the shit out of any monk they come across in a bg then worry about anything else they do

[Redbtk]

You might also find, peoples mentality is a big issue,

They see a new class, think back in time (OMG DKS OP), then decide their going to nuke the shit out of any monk they come across in a bg then worry about anything else they do

Lmao I thought the same. In a way you're right, but that doesn't make this playstyle right. I roll..get charged..roll again...charged again. Feared like 3 times from a priest in 15 seconds or so. Stunned like crazy by rogues and mages. That's what I mean, though, all we can literally do is slow them, and have a stun that misses all the time apparently(point blank), at the cost of leaving our CC melee range..guess it's good I'm going panda for yet another melee range cc

[-Cynical-]

Not sure if we're playing the same class. We have insane self healing, our damage is amazing, and I'm not sure how you can't stop a roll... You have a CD that increases your HP AND reduces your damage taken by 20%, IT ALSO LASTS FOR 20 SECONDS. You can talent Healing Elixirs and use Tigereye Brew every 15 seconds if you're being focused for 10% of your HP? 35-60k+ heal every 15 seconds? OP

I mean I do agree, the spec needs to change. There's too much wrong with it, however it's not under powered by any means.

[Redbtk]

BTW I just saw the PVP gloves..that kind fixes the roll issue

---------- Post added 2012-10-02 at 08:16 PM ----------

oh wait, it's just snares...how effin stupid....

[Hoen]

Not sure if we're playing the same class. We have insane self healing, our damage is amazing, and I'm not sure how you can't stop a roll... You have a CD that increases your HP AND reduces your damage taken by 20%, IT ALSO LASTS FOR 20 SECONDS. You can talent Healing Elixirs and use Tigereye Brew every 15 seconds if you're being focused for 10% of your HP? 35-60k+ heal every 15 seconds? OP

I mean I do agree, the spec needs to change. There's too much wrong with it, however it's not under powered by any means.

I don't know what insane self healing you're talking about. If you're talking about a 15 second cd 25-40k Instant heal, yeah no...Or our 60% resource consuming Healing Sphere...Yeah again, not so much. Don't forget Zen Sphere, or whatever healing option you did choose...Oh wait that takes Chi. Hmm. I just don't see it.

[Severusss]

Yeah idk what you're saying by insane self healing... Our self healing compared to other classes is a joke. I popped every defensive we have aside form touch of karma today in 2v2 and a bm hunter still killed me in literally 4 seconds. I have no complaints about our damage but our survival is a joke. I can beat on someone non stop and just about kill them but as soon as they turn and attack I am dead.

[Ilnezhara]

I don't know what insane self healing you're talking about. If you're talking about a 15 second cd 25-40k Instant heal, yeah no...Or our 60% resource consuming Healing Sphere...Yeah again, not so much. Don't forget Zen Sphere, or whatever healing option you did choose...Oh wait that takes Chi. Hmm. I just don't see it.

Thanks, someone else who says the same thing I'm thinking. Our self-healing is bloody insane-ly bad .So is our damage, unless we're able to sit on a target for pretty long time. Five or six GCDs at the very least... and to be honest, without a way to break the roots that are so prevelant to every class, that's unlikely in the best of scenarios. I've been grinding BGs today as WW and I have to say that I just cannot wait for it to be over. At least our healing spec is good. I'm sorry to all the people who are legitimately enjoying the class but there's a difference between a 2400+ capable class and a class that's only fun for crapping on bad kids in a BG. The difference is one's an acurate use of the term "Good".

[Teddybearavenger]

The monk is an extremely fun class, loving PvE with him, but.. that's half the game for me. Let me start off by saying that the mobility everyone thinks us Monks have, is kind of half true. Sure I can fly around a dungeon like a madman, but that doesn't matter at all when it comes to PvP. Stopping a roll/flying kick seems to be way too easy. A charge/root/stun anything can stop us dead in our path. Roll should work more like a charge, take damage while moving, but can't be rooted/slowed or anything in the process.

When it comes to cooldowns, we have the silliest CD's for "Survival". They just all feel like PvE tank talents. The "90% damage reduction" in the tooltip sounds nice in theory, but lets see:

Zen Meditation - Not much to say, this can be canceled way too easily. Maybe if it took X amount of damage to break the channel?
Dampen Harm - Best option out of all, but it's just flat damage reduction.
Diffuse Magic - Can I rely on facing a lock/spriest in arenas to make the most of it? No. Also just turns to a damage reduction..but only magic. Way too situational.
Touch of Karma - Definitely good, easily avoided though. Only effects one target, so while said target holds off on me, his buddy will continue finishing me.

Fortifying Brew is good as well, but I'm not a fan of "increased hp" buff for a situation like this. At this point, that only increased my HP by about 63-65k, which is only a few extra hits. Look at DK's IBF, that's 12 seconds of stun immunity..come on now. Understandably, you can't win them all..

That being said, we have no 'great' survival buff that really helps us. Just plain damage reduction. On top of this, I feel we have damage that's right up there with any other class, but it takes way too much prep work. Tiger Palm is easy, and at the same time, it can be a hassle to keep up. I feel it's equivalent to rogues never getting a talent to refresh their Slice and Dice. It's just a crucial part of our DPS, and it wears off so quick. And Tigereye Brew takes so long to stack up, every 4 chi used is 1 out of 10(max) stacks. Backloaded buff, that great...not. Also, having to waste so many GCD's on Tiger Palm for the Buff (tiger power x3) when the attack itself hits for peanuts.

WW is just so gimpy in PVP. We are squishy as hell, have minimal control in a fight and no buff to save ourselves in PvP. Disable and grapple weapon are the only good things Monks have to show for themselves in PvP. Good luck surviving a rogue opening up on you. Leg Sweep needs to be a primary ability for WW. Making us pick between that and making our Paralysis ranged is just ridiculously wrong to me. Leg Sweep is nice for an "Oh sh*t" moment so I can actually get some sort of an escape..

Yes, this is just based off BGs, so hopefully in a 3v3 today it won't feel as bad. But going based off doing BGs, this is beyond pathetic. Blown up INSTANTLY.

In the end, I hope I'm wrong and this class works great in 3v3's today.


TLDR - We need better survival buffs other than flat damage, and some sort of immunity to put some fear in an enemy so they know I have a good defense to their offense. Tiger power is a terrible idea for buffing our dps to give use to the ability, hits horribly low, and wears off too fast. God forbid your hit misses.

you gotta be smoking dude the best thing we have is survibability we just need damage apparently.

[Drunkenfinn]

you gotta be smoking dude the best thing we have is survibability we just need damage apparently.

I dont see how our damage is bad.

I dont think anything hits as hard as Rising Sun Kick (at least in PvE?) as I've gotten over 250k crits with it in dungeons. But I guess it takes too long to "set up" the 3 stacks of Tiger Power first.

But well, this is just my observation. I havent actually tried any BGs yet, just some random world PvP.

[Deleted]

You guys know you can change your talents and glyphs in the prep phase of arena, don't you? You're also able to see which class and their specs you will be facing. Imo there is no reason why you shouldn't have the best talents and glyphs for fighting a spell or melee cleve with this info. Glove bonus solves your issue with roll, every gets rooted with a "root" I don't see why you exspect roll to change this; should be specing into Tigers lust anyways, it's the best out of all 3 for arena.

Are you guys forgetting disable? Root the warrior before you roll/FSK. Either you're forgetting to use half your spells or you're braindead. First impressions guide for Monks in arena will be up on Hydramist.tv in about 2 weeks. You can wait until then or drop me a PM and I'll try to answer it.

[Saverem]

I agree, our survival is shit compared to other classes and our mobility sucks for PvP. Coming from a Warrior main, Monk mobility is beyond crap.

I'd trade both my Rolls AND my Serpent kick for my Warrior's Charge. Not to mention Warriors also get Heroic Leap and Intervene for even more mobility as well as snare/root immunities with Avatar and Bladestorm.

Here's some ways they can help the Monk:

Make it so serpent kick work as both a travel and target ability. Keep it they way it is now, but if you have a target, make it work like a charge, you follow the target. The way it is now, it's so ridiculously easy to miss your target if he's side stepping.

Remove the 2 chi cost of Touch of Karma. WHY DOES IT COST 2 CHI!? Fucking make it free or cost like 20 energy, max.

Give monks a ranged silence/interrupt. We are currently the only tanks in the game with no ranged silence/interrupt to pull mobs/use in PvP.

Fortifying Brew sucks for WWs. Give it something extra like they did with Brewmasters, perhaps a stun breaker or at least usable while stunned.

Give us some better healing. How about implementing a proc that refreshes the CD of Expel Harm? Or a proc somewhere that reduces the energy cost of Healing Sphere to 0-20?


Those aren't big or OP changes. They are doable.

[Hexme]

With tigers lust,pvp gloves and pvp trinket I have no issues getting away or to people. As for people getting owned by hunters FFS use your ranged disarm!!!!. SP are the only class besides good frost mages that just flat out destroy me.

Do we need somethings to be fixed? of course, honestly they need to combine Jab/TF into one move (remove the chi cost of course) and fix DM so it actually throws the spell effects back at the target. Also having ExH on a lower CD (like 6 or 8 sec) would be perfect, then have a talent/ability that makes you get 2 chi every time you are immobilized (have like a 8-10 sec CD on the effect) would be amazing. Lastly remove the required to stand in one spot while casting FoF would probably be op, but you know what it's a damn melee ability and it should not root you in a place.

[Redbtk]

Man, people other think what I said. I can get away fine from people... assuming I'm not rooted/stunned. The problem is this: If we get stunned, we are effed. Plain and simple. We are too squishy to be able to sit in stuns like that without a stun/root breaker, let alone casting anything have WHILE stunned.

-Roll should break roots, similar to resto druids. And act like a warrior's charge to where we can't be stunned/ rooted mid roll. Way too easy for a frost mage for example.
-FSK is fine as is.
-Instead of Fire Blossom, call it Tiger Blossom or some crap, so we can at least refresh it from range.

---------- Post added 2012-10-03 at 04:32 PM ----------

Also was raiding last night, and my FoF had some serious range. Maybe the pvp gloves helped lol, but still. I think Blizzard just tuned WW Monks down alot just so they didnt get the "oh it's a hero class, go figure its a broken OP class" rant. Instead I amongst many others complain about them being underpowered in certain aspects. Hopefully they can address these issues and make it more playable and less bashing my head against every BG/Arena.

[Zeoni]

How much resil do you guys have? Each piece I get I feel my survivability just sky rocketing. The only thing that's annoys me is the amount of CC in the game currently. Playing a BG is kind of stupid, you're just in some sort of CC 50% of the time. Hunters and Frost Mages seem to be the 2 classes that give me the most trouble currently, not sure if that will change with gear or not. We have incredible utility and survivability. Sustained damage is a bit low but you can burst very hard with 10 Tigerbrew. Class feels quite amazing to me, there's just so many tools available. Not quite sure what comp to try out in 3s but that's where my worry is greater. I'm not quite sure if we'll have the damage to support a non melee cleave comp. Class as a whole feels pretty complete though with the exception of some broken things that other classes can do. Not sure how you guys can complain about dying in a stun in a battleground on the first day of the actual PvP season lol. If you die in a stun with 2 people on you through heals with full gear then maybe there is a problem. But until then, I woulden't worry about our survivability.

[Uttrik]

Touch of Karma - Definitely good, easily avoided though. Only effects one target, so while said target holds off on me, his buddy will continue finishing me.

Just wanted to note that this isn't how Touch of Karma works. When you use it, all damage directed at you is redirected at the person you just touched. So even if the target stops attacking you, his buddy's damage with be redirected at him.

Touch of Karma is amazing. Get the glyph for it so you can reach out and touch them from further away.

[Redbtk]

4/5 set. then 3 contender pieces for now

[Johnkie]

90 on my windwalker monk... They suck really bad, theyre okay for 1v1 scenarios, but they cant do dmg in 2v2 havent tryed 3v3 so cant say yet... But its like playing a class that needs atleast 15 seconds before they can do anything!.... Having to choose between ranged paralysis and stun is just meh... Our 90 talent tiger sux ALOT, does like 5k dmg in pvp (pr tick), hits 2200'ish....
Fist of fury is retarded, not enough range its too easyly avoidable...
Basically the monk class feels very very weak, havent tryed mistweaver yet but im guessing its similiar.
And our defensive abilities (dampen harm etc) is also pretty damn useless.
Takes too long to get brew stacks up.
Tigers palm is also pretty damn useless, need it to be 30-40sec duration atleast!... Measly 15 seconds is nothing >.<
Id rly like to see rising sun kick get changed to 0 chi cost, and giving 20 energy instead. (or get implemented in mastery and perhaps cd reset when proc).
U failed blizz...
Compared to any other melee atm, monk is the worst thats for sure.

[Bluey111]

Not sure if we're playing the same class. We have insane self healing, our damage is amazing, and I'm not sure how you can't stop a roll... You have a CD that increases your HP AND reduces your damage taken by 20%, IT ALSO LASTS FOR 20 SECONDS. You can talent Healing Elixirs and use Tigereye Brew every 15 seconds if you're being focused for 10% of your HP? 35-60k+ heal every 15 seconds? OP

I mean I do agree, the spec needs to change. There's too much wrong with it, however it's not under powered by any means.

We also have no CC which seems to be required in pvp