Is it fair to consider SW:TOR a failure?

[Deleted]

You're comparing it to WoW. Your argument is already destroyed.

Like it or not SWTOR is in competition with WoW and other MMOs for subscribers so comparisons will always be made. A common scenario last December will likely have been, a current [insert name of MMO] subscriber buys TOR and tries to run it on their off the shelf machine that runs [insert name of MMO] perfectly well. TOR does not run well on their machine but they really like the look of it so they have to make a decision, go back to [insert name of MMO] or shell out 6 or 7 hundred pounds for a new PC to run TOR. In most cases are they going to go back to [insert name of MMO]

SWTOR is a new game. It came out December 20, 2011. It requires a modern gaming computer. This fact should not surprise you. This is also not the "fault" of the engine -- it is doing exactly what it was programmed to do. Upgrade your computer.

No it does not require a modern gaming computer, according to the published system requirements it needs a Dual Core processor, 2GB of RAM and an ATI x1800 or nVidia 7800 graphics card....hardly modern gaming computer spec. My PC, whilst not great, easily surpasses these requirements and still only just runs TOR on the minimum setting.
My point was only that if they wanted to be competitive with WoW and other MMOs in terms of number of subscriptions they should not have developed a game that need the latest off the shelf machines or dedicated gaming PCs, if you do that you are immediately alienating a large number of potential customers. Not all of us can “Upgrade your computer” just so we can play one particular game.

[Kuniku]

my opinion is that SW:TOR, like most other new MMO's, was released too early, I'd say about 95% of gamers playing SW:TOR, and other new MMO's, have experience with WoW. While WoW isn't 100% perfect, it doesn't have many bugs. When people try out the new MMO's they're comparing it to WoW, I've done it, and I bet most of you have done it too.

New MMO's might do a little pressure test weekend, but that won't compare to launch, so many more bugs will be found.

Personally my biggest gripe isn't the bugs, I expect those, its the little features, be it not having an auto run button (i use autorun a LOT in wow) or be it that spinning on the spot cancels casting (bugged the hell out of me in aion on my healer when i was used to spinning on the spot during long casts in wow (boredom thing)

WoW has gotten us used to so many little quality of life features, features that most new games don't have, i often find new MMO's just make me appreciate WoW better and make me want to play it more again . . . they get me excited about playing an MMO again, something that WoW often starts fizzling out after a while etc, but a few weeks on the new MMO and BOOM WoW is ossum again =D

[Deleted]

be it not having an auto run button (i use autorun a LOT in wow)

I don’t know if this was an arbitrary example but TOR has auto run.

[Deleted]

Like it or not SWTOR is in competition with WoW and other MMOs for subscribers so comparisons will always be made. A common scenario last December will likely have been, a current [insert name of MMO] subscriber buys TOR and tries to run it on their off the shelf machine that runs [insert name of MMO] perfectly well. TOR does not run well on their machine but they really like the look of it so they have to make a decision, go back to [insert name of MMO] or shell out 6 or 7 hundred pounds for a new PC to run TOR. In most cases are they going to go back to [insert name of MMO]

No it does not require a modern gaming computer, according to the published system requirements it needs a Dual Core processor, 2GB of RAM and an ATI x1800 or nVidia 7800 graphics card....hardly modern gaming computer spec. My PC, whilst not great, easily surpasses these requirements and still only just runs TOR on the minimum setting.
My point was only that if they wanted to be competitive with WoW and other MMOs in terms of number of subscriptions they should not have developed a game that need the latest off the shelf machines or dedicated gaming PCs, if you do that you are immediately alienating a large number of potential customers. Not all of us can “Upgrade your computer” just so we can play one particular game.

Their are numerous complaints about WoW having outdated GFX. If you want improved GFX you'll also need an improved version of your PC. WoW is an 8 year old game, can't blame swotor for having a higher system requirement.

Bugs are normal, it takes time to filter them all out. I take it you haven't played WoW from the start because that place was messy as hell. Even now there are plenty of bugs here and there, but that doesn't mean that these bugs can't be found and removed. TOR isn't even out for a year so its only normal that there are still bugs arround. Every patch... new bugs appear aswell.

[buggers]

Yes SWTOR sucks Bioware can shove a lightsaber right up EAs ass im off to panda land

[RohanV]

SWTOR is a new game. It came out December 20, 2011. It requires a modern gaming computer. This fact should not surprise you. This is also not the "fault" of the engine -- it is doing exactly what it was programmed to do. Upgrade your computer.

This is an absurdly foolish position for an MMO to take. Consider that many people play MMOs with other people in their households. Maybe husband and wife play together, or mother and daughter, or two brothers, or some other combination.

Very few households can boast of *two* top-of-the-line computers. They will have one good computer and one older computer. Or maybe the second computer is a laptop. Eventually they will upgrade the older machine and the newer one will lag behind. An MMO needs to be able to run on that *second* machine in order to get the household playing.

In my opinion, every AAA MMO since WoW has made the same mistake, and it has contributed to their weaknesses. The game is playable on the first machine, but not the second. WoW went to extraordinary lengths (native Mac client at release, for God's sake) to be playable on all computers in a household, not just the best one.

[Profyrion]

It runs. Nobody said it would run well on your off-the-shelf HP from 3 years ago, just because it meets the minimum specs and happens to run WoW, which is one of the points the last guy tried to make. Don't do that.

If you want to game you should expect to do it on a gaming system, and you should budget accordingly. If you can't afford to keep your system ahead of continuously-advancing game software you picked the wrong hobby. Some of you are being ridiculous.

[Kelimbror]

Very few households can boast of *two* top-of-the-line computers. They will have one good computer and one older computer. Or maybe the second computer is a laptop. Eventually they will upgrade the older machine and the newer one will lag behind. An MMO needs to be able to run on that *second* machine in order to get the household playing.

If they buy Dell or Best Buy computers, of course households can't afford nice versions of those. They cost 10x what they do to build them on your own. The notion that you can't have a great computer on a budget went out the window like 5 years ago.

Every year it gets less expensive to build a system capable of high performance. There's a difference between bleeding edge and good enough to run everything. I would argue that after an initial investment of $300-500 you can spend less than $100 a year on AVG to keep upgrading, otherwise you spend nothing for years.

I made that mistake once in my life. I bought a Dell XPS2 in college thinking it was so cool. I used it for many years, but I won't make that mistake twice. What I wouldn't give to have that money back to invest in a custom machine. I would have a godly machine.

[ultimar235]

I'd say it failed. I was there at the start. They were slow to fix bugs and balance. Ilum was a disgrace and the fact you could farm lower level people as a 50 and gain level 50 rewards is bad design. I enjoyed it to 50, i'm not saying it's a bad game but the way they communicated with the core players was awful and it cost them.

They fixed the problems but by that time it was too late.

They pissed off their core players, they left. There was no dungeon finder or enough progressive content for the casuals so they began to leave. Hardcore stayed but that's not enough to fuel an MMO money wise.

[Eroginous]

I'd have to say that my favorite response in all these types of threads is the 'Bioware made SWTOR for a special snowflake niche community, so if you don't like it, don't play.' Meanwhile, in many developer interviews prior to release, BioWare stated they wanted to reach as large an audience as possible with the game. At any rate, I'd really like it if you idiots defending every byte of this game would stop telling others they have no right to criticize it.

These statements need some citations. Most of them are unprovable unless you're a bean counter at EA. The last paragraph directly conflicts with EA's last quarterly report. If you have proof EA lied in their quarterly report I suggest you report that to the SEC.

I'm not a bean counter, so I wouldn't know what they spent on SWTOR development or how much they've pulled in. To be perfectly honest, they refuse to release the figures directly related to the costs of developing SWTOR, so it's impossible for anyone on the outside to know how much they've spent. However, I can guarantee you a few things:

1. If they had recuperated the costs of making SWTOR or were on the projected goal for being able to do so within a specific time frame, they WOULD NOT BE DROPPING THE PRICE OF THE BOX TO $15 (75% OFF) AND THEN MAKING THE 1-50 LEVELING EXPERIENCE COMPLETELY FREE TO PLAY. You don't throw away the opportunity to make a bunch of money ESPECIALLY if you owe a bunch of money and your game has the potential to bring in a bunch of money. Obviously, they found out really quick that SWTOR didn't have that potential.

2. They released the game on a buy to play + subs payment model which means that they budgeted the game to fit that model and thought that it would be a cash cow. Fucking $$$ in their eyes FTL.

3. The game has continued to cost them money since launch so it's not like the initial development costs (over a period of nearly 6 years) are all we are talking about here. The formula for how much the game has cost EA is X+Y=Z (where X is the initial cost, Y is the ongoing costs, and Z is the total) and it's incredibly obvious that if they were in the black on SWTOR they wouldn't be changing their business model less than a year after launch.

SWTOR going F2P is like Wow going F2P - it would never happen as long as they were in the Black.

[igame]

SWToR could have been great but the devs were too uptight and refused to give people basic features on release. NO UI modification, worst AH ever, ability lag etc., the game was clearly not ready for release.

However the worst thing about SWToR was and is the community. I played GW2 as well and did not like that. You could have a discussion with people in GW2, seems that GW2 at least has a decent community.
SWToR community is primly composed of some entitled and rather slow individuals who refuse to listen to anything that does not translate into I love SWtor and want to live up BW's bum.
I remember even after SWToR mods came out and said that ability lag was caused because of something wrong at their end, the swtor fanbase was still telling people to go back to wow or get a new PC.

There is no community for any game that represents the "head in the sand" better than SWToR community. Just look at this thread, the swtor fanbase is still telling people to buy new PCs lol. I remember I could run Crysis, wow, skyrim all on max setting but swtro was the only one causing dramas but I still got told it's my PC that's bad.

The game used a poor engine, the devs had no idea what people expect from a MMO and frankly it seems that they just wasted most of their budget in voice acting. They hyped up things like "moral choices" but then you see that no matter what choices you make, you end up killing the same guy in end.

I hear the game has gotten a lot better and would want to give it another go when it's F2P but it's not even proper F2P like GW2, so many restrictions and stuff for what is really a game that failed rather badly. They could have kept cash shop but at least let people have access to all the content. All in all, if someone wants F2P, GW2 gives a lot more for free and if someone wants to pay, pandaland is a whole lot better value for money!

[notorious98]

SWToR could have been great but the devs were too uptight and refused to give people basic features on release. NO UI modification, worst AH ever, ability lag etc., the game was clearly not ready for release.

However the worst thing about SWToR was and is the community. I played GW2 as well and did not like that. You could have a discussion with people in GW2, seems that GW2 at least has a decent community.
SWToR community is primly composed of some entitled and rather slow individuals who refuse to listen to anything that does not translate into I love SWtor and want to live up BW's bum.
I remember even after SWToR mods came out and said that ability lag was caused because of something wrong at their end, the swtor fanbase was still telling people to go back to wow or get a new PC.

There is no community for any game that represents the "head in the sand" better than SWToR community. Just look at this thread, the swtor fanbase is still telling people to buy new PCs lol. I remember I could run Crysis, wow, skyrim all on max setting but swtro was the only one causing dramas but I still got told it's my PC that's bad.

The game used a poor engine, the devs had no idea what people expect from a MMO and frankly it seems that they just wasted most of their budget in voice acting. They hyped up things like "moral choices" but then you see that no matter what choices you make, you end up killing the same guy in end.

I hear the game has gotten a lot better and would want to give it another go when it's F2P but it's not even proper F2P like GW2, so many restrictions and stuff for what is really a game that failed rather badly. They could have kept cash shop but at least let people have access to all the content. All in all, if someone wants F2P, GW2 gives a lot more for free and if someone wants to pay, pandaland is a whole lot better value for money!

Hmmmm, you seem to not grasp that GW2 is B2P and TOR will be a F2P hybrid model. The same type of model adopted by many other MMOs in the past. Successfully, I might add. As for "giving a lot more for free", I guess we'll have to see how fast content updates come around and just how much content is involved. Too early to make that assumption.

[igame]

Hmmmm, you seem to not grasp that GW2 is B2P and TOR will be a F2P hybrid model. The same type of model adopted by many other MMOs in the past. Successfully, I might add. As for "giving a lot more for free", I guess we'll have to see how fast content updates come around and just how much content is involved. Too early to make that assumption.

Well, I think almost everyone who tried both games will agree that GW2 was released a lot more complete and polished. The only big flaw (besides the normal bugs which all games have) I could see in GW2 was the AH did not work and they got that up in a weeks time too. Oh and also, Anet relied on third party sites to tell people of patches, updates etc in the beginning which was rather poorly done imo. But overall, great launch.

So one could say that at least in terms of first month performance and launch GW2 did much better than SWToR. I don't play GW2 anymore, it wasn't my cup of tea but credit where credit's due, the game came out much more polished and felt like a release candidate than a beta client that swtor felt like.

[Jalek]

Well, I think almost everyone who tried both games will agree that GW2 was released a lot more complete and polished. The only big flaw (besides the normal bugs which all games have) I could see in GW2 was the AH did not work and they got that up in a weeks time too. Oh and also, Anet relied on third party sites to tell people of patches, updates etc in the beginning which was rather poorly done imo. But overall, great launch.

So one could say that at least in terms of first month performance and launch GW2 did much better than SWToR. I don't play GW2 anymore, it wasn't my cup of tea but credit where credit's due, the game came out much more polished and felt like a release candidate than a beta client that swtor felt like.

I was there for launch of GW2 and SWTOR. SWTOR was hands down better. GW2 events were bugged all over the place and the core issue I have with GW2 is that the entire combat system stinks. You run up to a mob and hit maybe one debuff then autoswing and the mob dies. Pathing for charges etc are absolutely horrible too. PvP which was the big selling point is infinitely better in SWTOR as the combat system is a lot better. I played GW2 for about 2wks to give it a decent go, it was just so boring that I can't even log in. Also zerging in DEs and WvWvW is the primary goal. The dungeons were also pretty poor.

I never had ability delay issues or graphics issues in SWTOR, I'm not saying some didn't but they didn't affect everyone. GW2 runs well, though it's just not fun to play.

[Deleted]

1. If they had recuperated the costs of making SWTOR or were on the projected goal for being able to do so within a specific time frame, they WOULD NOT BE DROPPING THE PRICE OF THE BOX TO $15 (75% OFF) AND THEN MAKING THE 1-50 LEVELING EXPERIENCE COMPLETELY FREE TO PLAY. You don't throw away the opportunity to make a bunch of money ESPECIALLY if you owe a bunch of money and your game has the potential to bring in a bunch of money. Obviously, they found out really quick that SWTOR didn't have that potential.

WoW lowered its box cost aswell mind you, the players they where aiming at wheren't really MMO players, poaching players from another game is just bullcrap, you can't expect a player to give up 8 years of character development for a "new" MMO. They aimed at a wide audience yes, but lets be honest, the kotor audience was mainly aimed at. Well I'm quite sure that the majority just wants to play the game single player. They are only interested in the quest lines, why not give it to them and maybe a few will stick arround for endgame.

A hughe missconception of WoW players is that its all about the endgame...

Well no, its about the world, the story and the challenges that your character overcomes. So Ops and HM's belong to the challenges but before getting to Ops your character whent to a great deal already, and SW delivered on that.

I don't see your point, 50 euro and next to no coppies are being sold... or 15 euro and some copies are being sold... I know what makes more money! Infact, personal story then, a friend who is reluctant to pay 50 euro for an MMO, hes not an MMO player, saw the game for 15 euro and he was like "... what the hell, HK HERE I COME".

So you see, the marketing works. Have you studied economics to prove them wrong? Do you have the evidence even to do so? No, your just applying your OWN logic wich COULD be faulty.

2. They released the game on a buy to play + subs payment model which means that they budgeted the game to fit that model and thought that it would be a cash cow. Fucking $$$ in their eyes FTL.

Many MMO's have subs, I don't see the problem, are you really bashing the fact that they had the nerve to ask money for their game?

3. The game has continued to cost them money since launch so it's not like the initial development costs (over a period of nearly 6 years) are all we are talking about here. The formula for how much the game has cost EA is X+Y=Z (where X is the initial cost, Y is the ongoing costs, and Z is the total) and it's incredibly obvious that if they were in the black on SWTOR they wouldn't be changing their business model less than a year after launch.

SWTOR going F2P is like Wow going F2P - it would never happen as long as they were in the Black.

If they where going in the black then EA would have pulled the plug by now, nor would their be new content. We just received a new Ops, soon we are getting a new planet and our class stories are getting updated. You just see f2p "LOL FAIL". While infact, Bioware gives the oppertunity to curious players to play the game and see the world, they only extended the trial. Something WoW should learn off so they wouldn't have to implement cross server zones. The subbed players will still have benefits over the f2p players.

The cash shop... might backfire, I'm not fond of a cash shop. However I saw the system work for lotro, I'm curious.

You are only throwing random assumptions by your own logic, you can't even back it up. Stop pulling assumptions out of your ass.

[jbombard]

...
Many MMO's have subs, I don't see the problem, are you really bashing the fact that they had the nerve to ask money for their game?
...

Yeah I don't think the problem was that they had subs. The problem was that they thought they could be like Blizzard and take the money and run. The only one that gets away with that in the current MMORPG market is Blizzard, and that is only because of the huge number of addicts. Despite that if WoW isn't able to put out more frequent updates going forward I think you will see more and more people not willing to give them money any longer. They should have used the Rift model, also known as "you give us money we give you value".

People want value for their money. F2P games are nice because you can choose to buy what you value. Subs work so long as they are providing enough value to their customers so that their customers don't feel like they are getting ripped off. The "you pay us just to log on to our servers" model is dead.

[Clymene]

SWTOR going F2P is like Wow going F2P - it would never happen as long as they were in the Black.

Wow, this statement is beyond ignorant. The business model a company uses is not determined by whether the company breaks even. The choice is made based on which will make the most money. Tells you nothing about whether the current model is turning a profit or not. Clearly EA believes F2P up to 50 with cash shop and sub will make more money (whether that is more than zero, I have no idea) than their current buy and sub model.

I'm not a bean counter, so I wouldn't know what they spent on SWTOR development or how much they've pulled in. To be perfectly honest, they refuse to release the figures directly related to the costs of developing SWTOR, so it's impossible for anyone on the outside to know how much they've spent. However, I can guarantee you a few things:

1. If they had recuperated the costs of making SWTOR or were on the projected goal for being able to do so within a specific time frame, they WOULD NOT BE DROPPING THE PRICE OF THE BOX TO $15 (75% OFF) AND THEN MAKING THE 1-50 LEVELING EXPERIENCE COMPLETELY FREE TO PLAY. You don't throw away the opportunity to make a bunch of money ESPECIALLY if you owe a bunch of money and your game has the potential to bring in a bunch of money. Obviously, they found out really quick that SWTOR didn't have that potential.

2. They released the game on a buy to play + subs payment model which means that they budgeted the game to fit that model and thought that it would be a cash cow. Fucking $$$ in their eyes FTL.

3. The game has continued to cost them money since launch so it's not like the initial development costs (over a period of nearly 6 years) are all we are talking about here. The formula for how much the game has cost EA is X+Y=Z (where X is the initial cost, Y is the ongoing costs, and Z is the total) and it's incredibly obvious that if they were in the black on SWTOR they wouldn't be changing their business model less than a year after launch.

How can you guarantee things when you nothing of the costs. To your first point, that makes no sense. Think supply and demand curves. EA probably figures that they are not going to sell anymore boxes at $60, so they are lowering it to price point where they think people will buy. Nothing to do with whether EA made back development costs.

To your second and third points, the market has changed in 6 years, maybe EA is trying to change SWTOR to match that.

I don't know if EA has made a dime on SWTOR or not. I just know none of your guarantees are worth the paper they are printed on.

[jbombard]

... Clearly EA believes F2P up to 50 with cash shop and sub will make more money (whether that is more than zero, I have no idea) than their current buy and sub model.

...

And I think they are making a huge mistake. They didn't fail because they had subs. They failed because they couldn't release fixes and content updates on a fast enough schedule to make their customer feel like they were getting value for their sub, and to keep them interested in the game.

Instead of addressing that problem and tackling head on, we have seen the majority of the people who made Bioware the great company it *was* leave, and a cut and run maneuver to try and squeeze out some more bucks with F2P. Frankly it is an insult to their customers. Now they will have to try and make enough content to keep players interested without the income they receive from subs. So the initial problem is still there, only now that won't have the resources to fix it. People didn't leave because they had subs they left because they were bored. If they want to turn this around they need to figure out how to do what Rift does and that is make frequent quality updates on a low budget. F2P or sub, people aren't going to pay a dime if you can't put out enough content to keep them interested.

[Letmesleep]

Yeah I don't think the problem was that they had subs. The problem was that they thought they could be like Blizzard and take the money and run. The only one that gets away with that in the current MMORPG market is Blizzard, and that is only because of the huge number of addicts. Despite that if WoW isn't able to put out more frequent updates going forward I think you will see more and more people not willing to give them money any longer. They should have used the Rift model, also known as "you give us money we give you value".

People want value for their money. F2P games are nice because you can choose to buy what you value. Subs work so long as they are providing enough value to their customers so that their customers don't feel like they are getting ripped off. The "you pay us just to log on to our servers" model is dead.

The sub model will only be dead once wow dies. The only reason other games can't count on the model is because they aren't as good as wow. It should be noted that I currently don't play any MMOs. I left WoW towards the start of 4.3, but in the mean time I have tried Rift, Tera, and SWTOR. WoW still remains the best MMO I have ever played on just about every level. Flawed as it is, in my opinion there isn't a single thing WoW doesn't do better than the competition. It's not like other MMOs out right now don't have the sub model either, they just aren't succeeding because their games are pretty mediocre. With that said, my real point here is that not everyone has a gag reflex connected to subscription based games. Most adults have no problem scrounging up $15 for an entire month's worth of entertainment and it comes down to how good a game is. Wow's player base isn't crazy, it's players aren't any more addicted than people who play other games, WoW simply continues to prove itself the better game because even despite the cost it remains the largest MMO on the market. You can argue that some other MMO is better, but the numbers support WoW. If other games could survive with a sub, you can bet they would try.

Edit: Rereading your post, we aren't saying things entirely different from each other. A few differences but I agree with some of your assertions. SWTOR did not fail because of a subscription based model.

[jbombard]

The sub model will only be dead once wow dies. The only reason other games can't count on the model is because they aren't as good as wow. It should be noted that I currently don't play any MMOs. I left WoW towards the start of 4.3, but in the mean time I have tried Rift, Tera, and SWTOR. WoW still remains the best MMO I have ever played on just about every level. Flawed as it is, in my opinion there isn't a single thing WoW doesn't do better than the competition. It's not like other MMOs out right now don't have the sub model either, they just aren't succeeding because their games are pretty mediocre. With that said, my real point here is that not everyone has a gag reflex connected to subscription based games. Most adults have no problem scrounging up $15 for an entire month's worth of entertainment and it comes down to how good a game is. Wow's player base isn't crazy, it's players aren't any more addicted than people who play other games, WoW simply continues to prove itself the better game because even despite the cost it remains the largest MMO on the market. You can argue that some other MMO is better, but the numbers support WoW. If other games could survive with a sub, you can bet they would try.

Actually looking at WoW is not a great way to understand why subs work. WoW works because they have a huge loyal and addicted customer base, and that won't hold true for anyone else.

Rift on the other hand is a great example of a sub game with a working model. They aren't anywhere as big as WoW but, with far less financial resources they put out tons of quality new content on a frequent basis, engage and communicate with their community, and actually make customers feel like their money is worth it.
Even if wow was to die(which it won't), the subscription model will survive as long as companies provide value to the customer for their sub fee.(and that is value as the customer sees it, not as the company sees it)