Are you enjoying the endgame?

[Fencers]

No it wouldn't be...but therein lies the problem. You can do quests in games X, Y and Z too, so again why follow the standard MMO formula so closely? Having 1-80+ in your game play out the same way that level 1-80 plays out in "EverWorld of Questcraft: The Old Republic" doesn't seem like the way to go if you're trying to do something different.

It can be. Because they are doing something different. It may not be the difference you are looking for is all.

[Deleted]

Ok, serious question then...what are they doing that's different? Or specifically, so different that a player from another MMO would look at it and say, "That's markedly different from the game I'm currently in."

A fair few things. Nothing they're doing is particularly new, but the very blurred line between endgame and levelling content is rather different from MMOs currently. The PvP having a level progression system is also rather different, as is the large scale PvP in WvWvW (note: different, not new.).

It's things you wouldn't necessarily associate with the MMORPG genre in its current state that GW2 are doing. Some of it is going down really well, some of it not so much. As someone who isn't a massive fan of PvP, they aren't doing enough different to keep me playing for an extended amount of time as PvE is currently rather lackluster for me.

[rhandric]

Ok, serious question then...what are they doing that's different? Or specifically, so different that a player from another MMO would look at it and say, "That's markedly different from the game I'm currently in."

The only major differences I can really see all simply revolve around what they're NOT doing, as opposed to new, different things that they're bringing to the table.

What you're missing is that you're not forced to do something you're not interested in, in order to do what you are interested in.

[Fencers]

Ok, serious question then...what are they doing that's different? Or specifically, so different that a player from another MMO would look at it and say, "That's markedly different from the game I'm currently in."

Think I touched on it already in post 813: content for it's own sake, hard ceiling on player power, no progression past level 80, equalized gear tiers, definitive end to PVE content.

The game never becomes something else or more beyond what is experienced from level 1 through 80. The entire premise of the series hinges on one playing just to play.

For example, there were whole maps and quests in GW1 which could be skipped, were not tied to the main quests or gave any significant reward. Hundreds of quests actually. If one simply ran the missions from level 1-20 and completed the campaign-- both possible & viable, one wouldn't even visit most of these zones or quests. Like at all.

Those maps/quests existed merely as something to do for their own sake.

That is different.

Those quest you do on the way to level X in Rift or TOR are only there to get you over to the next level. In those two games in particular the questing scheme is extremely economical. You almost always are at the exact level required & desired by the developers each step. Until one no longer needs these quests and then the game becomes bimodal [TOR] or linear [Rift] in progression path.

The above mentioned MMOs have perpetual progression paths too. Guild Wars does not. It ends. Ends absolutely mind you, in the case of Guild Wars 1's gameplay. It seems this is the case of Guild Wars 2 as well until xpac 1.

What it seems you are saying is, 'why not innovate on questing models?'. Okay, that's fair. But what if the difference they are shooting for isn't so much removing leveling or questing [which I feel they should have done] but in presenting those tropes or conventions differently?

That's the wrinkle. And why I said GW is different in a way you may not expressly be looking for. But it is a series that is quite different in goal & intention from many other MMOs regardless.

[Rukh]

What you're missing is that you're not forced to do something you're not interested in, in order to do what you are interested in.

Or able to... for people who might actually be interested in that. : P

[rhandric]

Or able to... for people who might actually be interested in that. : P

Oh really? *Launches other game* There! Oh wait, but in said other game you have to do X, Y, and Z before you can even think about doing A, which is what you want to do

[Rukh]

Oh really? *Launches other game* There! Oh wait, but in said other game you have to do X, Y, and Z before you can even think about doing A, which is what you want to do

Huh here I thought we were trying to argue benefits of GW2, not things other games do better.

[Deleted]

Oh really? *Launches other game* There! Oh wait, but in said other game you have to do X, Y, and Z before you can even think about doing A, which is what you want to do

This isn't particularly true.

I want to do A, but I need to be level 80. Guess I have to do X so I can get to do A. Where's Y and Z? They don't exist, meaning less choice.

I'm all for choice, don't get me wrong, but GW2 is not completely 'jump in and do what you want.' because you still have to do a fair amount of work and grinding to get what you want. Whether that grinding is reaching level 80, whether it's running dungeons for set pieces, whether it's farming gold and playing the trading post, etc.

It is not simply a 'do what you want' game. It still has progression, it just has less progression. Like I said, you still have to do X to get to A - sure you don't have to do Y and Z, but what if you like Y and Z and they aren't even in the game?

[rhandric]

Huh here I thought we were trying to argue benefits of GW2, not things other games do better.

GW2 was not designed to replace other games. For some, it does, but it's not designed around the raid and gear-grind that some people like. Which is fine, you don't need everything in a single game, and for most people there's no single game that does everything they want as they want it. That was the point I was making, in a slightly sarcastic manner.

This isn't particularly true.

I want to do A, but I need to be level 80. Guess I have to do X so I can get to do A. Where's Y and Z? They don't exist, meaning less choice.

I'm all for choice, don't get me wrong, but GW2 is not completely 'jump in and do what you want.' because you still have to do a fair amount of work and grinding to get what you want. Whether that grinding is reaching level 80, whether it's running dungeons for set pieces, whether it's farming gold and playing the trading post, etc.

It is not simply a 'do what you want' game. It still has progression, it just has less progression. Like I said, you still have to do X to get to A - sure you don't have to do Y and Z, but what if you like Y and Z and they aren't even in the game?

The only "work" you need to put into the game is to level up to complete dungeons (and story). So yes, saying you can jump into anything is slightly untrue, but still holds true in principle.

Sure, that opens the question, "but in X game I don't like the leveling part, why is that a required part of GW2?!" But, again, different games are different. In other MMOs I hate seeing other players in the world, because it means my life gets harder, not more fun...and not harder in a fun manner, but in a tedious manner, while in GW2 I love seeing other players, it's never a bad thing, the only time it's even slightly annoying is if I'm going out of my way to try to do something challenging on purpose, which gets trivialized by other players...but if I'm doing that I tend to range far off the beaten path, making that unlikely to happen. Similarly, in other MMOs world content is trivial and boring, which, IMO, isn't the case in GW2. Different game designs, which everyone will approach and appreciate differently.

[melodramocracy]

That's what boggles me. Ever since beta there's been this, "There's more to do because there's less to do." thing thrown around and it really does confuse the heck out of me.

Now granted, that seemingly conflicting phrase can be true in games with a strong sandbox element. But GW2 doesn't have that. It's just in this weird place between a Theme Park and a Sandbox where they left out the best elements of both.

The more / less thing, at least the way I see it, is that there are much lower barriers to entry to participate in all aspects of this game. Probably the only time you're actually at a huge disadvantage would be going into WvW at a low level, due to the gear and your potential lack of all profession skills. So, more to do 'right now' gives players a perception that there is indeed more to do. Level scaling in PvE helps create that sense as well.

It's easy to see (and many have reached this point already) running out of PvE content. It's feasible to complete the map, your personal story, get exactly the armor you want, max 2 crafts, and clear all the dungeons... at that point, your gear chase becomes purely cosmetic, which may be deemed not worth the effort by some players. Still, I think there's a respectable amount of gameplay available, given the age of the game.

[glowpipe]

there is a lot to do now. However the rep grind is killing me slowly. ive stopped doing klaxxi and goldenlotus now. Just doing tillers and fishing dailies.

Gonna start up again when the new rep fix is released. the faster rep after revered thingie

[melodramocracy]

This isn't particularly true.

I want to do A, but I need to be level 80. Guess I have to do X so I can get to do A. Where's Y and Z? They don't exist, meaning less choice.

I'm all for choice, don't get me wrong, but GW2 is not completely 'jump in and do what you want.' because you still have to do a fair amount of work and grinding to get what you want. Whether that grinding is reaching level 80, whether it's running dungeons for set pieces, whether it's farming gold and playing the trading post, etc.

It is not simply a 'do what you want' game. It still has progression, it just has less progression. Like I said, you still have to do X to get to A - sure you don't have to do Y and Z, but what if you like Y and Z and they aren't even in the game?

This game has far less gated content than other MMO's, though there essentially is the need to be at max level, or close to it, to see all there is to see.. Quests in WoW don't even show up for you if you don't meet level requirements... that is not the case here.. True PvP in other games doesn't even start till max level, that's clearly not the case here either due to how things work. HOW you can level up has a bit more variety in this game as well. If one had the gold on hand, it would be pretty easy to get quite high in levels doing nothing but crafting, for example.

[draykorinee]

there is a lot to do now. However the rep grind is killing me slowly. ive stopped doing klaxxi and goldenlotus now. Just doing tillers and fishing dailies.

Gonna start up again when the new rep fix is released. the faster rep after revered thingie

Wrong game my friend...although you'll likely find a lot of wow discussion in here were on GW2 here, the rep grind and daily quests n WoW are as stale as the sandwhich I found in my bag after 3 weeks off work, thye proclaimed more variety than ever, unfortunately just like anet they didnt deliver :P

[Deleted]

I enjoy it as I see PvE Orr as doing huge outdoor raids with friends. There's a lot of choice as to where to go and it's easy to jump into. This of course presuming the events aren't all bugged. If Anet perma fixes the bugged events and ups the rewards for the full scale events people might be more inclined to run them instead of only farming dungeons. I'm not sure if it's the server population gone down or lack of interest in events but most of them don't seem to be run by anyone until some guildies make a group

Dungeons are fun but possibly too unclear. They can seem incredibly hard but once you find out how to deal with mechanics and get a group that's not traited as glass cannons they can get quite easy. And yeah you'll be downed but that's part of it - ressing your teammates and the consequences of not doing so. Thats part of the fun of the design, however it's not as accessible to everyone like WoW's dungeons and that can be a double edged knife for Anet.

But I do love the game, for all it's flaws it is quite brilliant and the value for money is amazing tbh.

[kinetiks]

I'm ready for a new zone or new dynamic events in Orr. I'd like to see a new mega event take place after all temples have been captured. I find the leveling process more exciting than the end game. I'm currently saving up gold for a legendary and finishing explorer on my "main". Luckily I started working 40 hours a week again, or i'd probably be bored in the coming weeks. At 500 hours played I definitely got my moneys worth.

[nightshark]

I just got my Guardian to level 80 on the weekend, my first character at 80. Can't afford exotics yet, I have been focusing on world completion - have about 5 zones completed so far. It'll keep me busy for a while so I don't just think of it in terms of grinding gold for exotics. I am enjoying it so far. One complaint is that the events in the lower level areas give shitty rewards which means I'm barely making gold on completing the zones after paying for the waypoints.

POIs and vistas can get on my nuts when I have to spend 10 minutes running around and looking for the entrance to one. "Is this a jumping puzzle? Is there somewhere obvious I haven't looked? Maybe it's over here... nope"

[Lemmiwink]

GW2, fun game but for me not enough game to keep me interested for a long time. I like WvWvW ofc, and the PVP in this game is more fun than in any other MMO I have played to date. Only problem is, for me; There is no such thing as raids. Guild interfaces suck. Too few dungeons. The game is basically, on the PVE side, just heart events and random events + some exploring. And most of this just turn into some huge zerg fest that is not challenging or fun.

Classes are fun and I love the attunement swithcing on the elementalist, but in dungeons, I would really love to be able to spec healer and heal a tank or be a DPS that could do a little CC while beating enrage timers. The holy trinity works, I have never seen the big reason to remove it. And the way it is in GW2 it isn't really removed, just not working as it should.

My tip to Anet; tweak the classes and make us into DPS, heals or tanks on the PVE side of the game (optional spec ofc) and start making some more dungeons and some raids. This way you will get so many players playing your game regularly instead of once every three weeks.

[Deleted]

My only real dislike is that there's not much depth to the combat in pve, in my opinion. There are very few situations where there are any real tactics involved, most of the time it's just "avoid the bad thing, or use an ability to recover from not avoiding the bad thing". If someone asked me to describe the gameplay of a particular dungeon/path, the thing that stands out the most for me are the platforming/puzzle sections and hardly ever the combat itself.

[Deleted]

In other MMOs I hate seeing other players in the world, because it means my life gets harder, not more fun...and not harder in a fun manner, but in a tedious manner, while in GW2 I love seeing other players, it's never a bad thing, the only time it's even slightly annoying is if I'm going out of my way to try to do something challenging on purpose, which gets trivialized by other players...but if I'm doing that I tend to range far off the beaten path, making that unlikely to happen.

So, so true.

Funny story about that - I recently resubscribed to WoW (after extensive research which showed Blizzard didn't go as over-the-top as I expected them to, and my ol' guild needed more capable raiders), and the second evening I was doing some questing with the guild leader while talking via Mumble. At one point he exclaimed "oh, this quest is great, are you here yet?" I replied "nah, I'm still on this quest, mate." He said, "but that's ages past, why are you still on that?" He was silent for about two seconds, then commented "you do know you don't get credit for killing tagged mobs, right?" I had entirely forgotten that.

...I still forget to mount up.

[Ravenblade]

[...]
Classes are fun and I love the attunement swithcing on the elementalist, but in dungeons, I would really love to be able to spec healer and heal a tank or be a DPS that could do a little CC while beating enrage timers. The holy trinity works, I have never seen the big reason to remove it. And the way it is in GW2 it isn't really removed, just not working as it should.

Actually the 'holy trinity' today is much less the 'holy trinity' it was originally designed as. If there had not been any softening over time then chances are that the MMORPG genre would have stagnated because classical holy trinity and even WoW's initial adaptation of it were not very popular. Thus it is around because it was made working and by that I mean that I mean it has been diluted enough that the next of it is just a removal of it if you were to develop it further for a new game.

Tank and healing classes being to level on their own and thus capable of limited dps, infinite and cheap respecs, introduction of a support sub-role (in some MMORPGs), talents which allow hybrid performance etc.

It's more a matter of mindset by which people were trained to develop a controlled OCD for roles. Tank players feel compelled to tank, healer players feel compelled to heal and pure DPS players - they probably have the least problem with the model in GW2 if there wouldn't be that need to heal and cure conditions but that's what good DPS players already did in games which have the holy trinity.

Lastly you never know what works until you try it. Even if you try it and fail the appropriate response would not be giving up but see what you can do to make it work. That's how gaming developed actually otherwise we'd still be playing Pong.

My tip to Anet; tweak the classes and make us into DPS, heals or tanks on the PVE side of the game (optional spec ofc) and start making some more dungeons and some raids. This way you will get so many players playing your game regularly instead of once every three weeks.

That's not a tip that's a demand for re-engineering the game. I am having the feeling that ANet is fully aware that their game does not cater to all kinds of players and the times where the number of converted WoW players would be a dictating factor for the making or breaking of a MMORPG are slowly fading. Which is good because it finally allows the diversity it needed without having to deprive eachother of their playerbases in order to sustain oneself. All genres except MMORPGs had no problem with it. For some reason this king of the hill mentality made MMORPGs exempt from the concept of coexistence. Not anymore. So people who prefer holy trinity-based and classical raid-based games do have a great variety of choices. There is no need to bend every spoon and make it comply to WoW rules. Because what may work for one game may not work for another. That's a lesson which this genre had to learn, a lesson taught by Blizzard themselves by saying 'Stop copying us and you will do great and much better!'.