Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[Deleted]

He asked what you guys get in return for us getting Dalaran back. You get to kill our leadership in Pandaria and the heir to the Stormwind Throne. Kind of a big deal.

Anduin seems to be one of the few non-natives who has an ounce of sense regarding Pandaria and the whole Sha situation. Him dying is a loss to everyone except the die hard Garrosh sympathizers.

I don't disagree with Dalaran returning to Alliance hands. I think it's a cool move overall. It's just in no way balanced by Anduin dying. It's just simply an alliance victory lore wise, pure and simple. And there's nothing wrong with that.

[Trassk]

That's exactly the flaw in his arguments, that for the Sunreavers it should be mandatory to quit the Horde, and only serve the Kirin'Tor, whereas Jaina, as the LEADER of the Kirin Tor, is able to remain in the Alliance, and even lead the Kirin'Tor into battle FOR the Alliance and AGAINST the Horde...how is that logical??
That is some twisted logic, I dare say, and if Jaina were as neutral and rational as she claimed, then she would distance herself from the Alliance as well, for the Kirin'Tor to remain the neutral force. But this biased arguments for Jaina being Alliance and leader of the Kirin'Tor, putting up orders in favor for the Alliance but kicking out, imprisoning and killing the Sunreavers for wanting to remain in their faction is truyl retarded.

Exactly. Its demanding one side conform to your rules when your not prepared to do the same. And now because of something that happened due to Garrosh, NOT the Sunreavers, Jaina holds the sunreavers responsible.

[Thulvaso]

Not the one in Northrend. From what we know according to zone files Dalaran moves, it's that Dalaran that will be off limits.

This is interesting. I wonder where the city will move to.

[Thage]

I can understand it of course. If I was Jaina and after what Garrosh did to theramore, I would not want anyone who follows him willingly to be in the city I just made home. But same time, Aethas and his sunreavers are held in a bad position and were not part of this attack, and yet Jaina doesn't give a shit no more, becoming just a clone of Varian instead of considering Aethas was held against it.

You're missing the point. The point is that Aethas allowed the Horde to use Dalaran as a mobile base without Jaina's knowledge, betraying the city's neturality in the faction war. He knew full well what the Horde cost Jaina, he was there when she gave her acceptance speech, and still he sided with the Horde over the Kirin Tor. If Aethas were to tell Garrosh 'No, you will not use Dalaran to get to Darnassus,' what's Garrosh gonna do? Declare war on a mobile city packed with some of the world's most powerful mages, at least one of whom has a personal reason to use the magical version of a KILL-SAT? Aethas made his choice to look the other way, and in doing so (Fear-driven or not), made it clear that his loyalties were with the Horde above the Kirin Tor.

So again, the Horde, rather than respect Dalaran's neutrality, drove them to the Alliance much like the Sentinels drove the blood elves to the Horde.

[steveyboy]

When Lor'themar says he's reconsidering old alliances, given that he just battled and badmouthed the Silver Covenant and Alliance, makes me think he's probably not referring to high elves and the Alliance.

My guess is that he's talking about the Forsaken. They're the blood elves' oldest standing ally, and recently Lor'themar has been at odds with Sylvanas and even siding with Garrosh against her on issues (as seen in Tides of War), so he might be considering joining forces with them again.

Or maybe the naga? Hmm.

Now with a couple suggestions that Lor'themar has what it takes to be Warchief, along with Vol'jin and Baine, it sorta feels like Blizzard is probably going to be playing up the drama there. Who will it be? Find out next time on As the World of Warcraft Turns!

Also, is it just me, or is Aethas sounding a bit amateur? Maybe just a placeholder?

At most we will probably have a council with each race in the horde having somebody to represent it to stop this kind of thing happening again.

[Trassk]

This is interesting. I wonder where the city will move to.

well this will make great sense won't it.

New player levels to 70, gets to Warsong hold, the nice tauren lady gives him a quest 'hey, you need to go to dalaran and help there', and the new player wonders 'urm, isn't that an alliance city, it was in a patch recently'. So he goes there, makes it a hearthstone, levels further until in pandaria, see's dalaran overhead and thinks 'didn't I make that my hearthstone before, why are they aggressive to me now?'

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

[noteworthynerd]

Snip

Exactly this. Aethas allowed Garrosh to use Dalaran as a base, effectively spitting in the face of Jaina and her orders. It doesn't matter what his reasoning was (i.e. fear), or that he was not involved with Theramore, he betrayed the neutrality of Dalaran which rightly gives Jaina all the justification she needs to act.

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

They're not making "holes in the Swiss cheese" out of anything. Dalaran will still be in Northrend because the entire continent of Northrend is in the past. When we visit there, we are visiting a Northrend that existed prior to the Cataclysm. The same is true for Outland.

Wherever Dalaran ends up will be its current location in lore, it really isn't that complicated.

[Trassk]

You're missing the point. The point is that Aethas allowed the Horde to use Dalaran as a mobile base without Jaina's knowledge, betraying the city's neturality in the faction war. He knew full well what the Horde cost Jaina, he was there when she gave her acceptance speech, and still he sided with the Horde over the Kirin Tor. If Aethas were to tell Garrosh 'No, you will not use Dalaran to get to Darnassus,' what's Garrosh gonna do? Declare war on a mobile city packed with some of the world's most powerful mages, at least one of whom has a personal reason to use the magical version of a KILL-SAT? Aethas made his choice to look the other way, and in doing so (Fear-driven or not), made it clear that his loyalties were with the Horde above the Kirin Tor.

So again, the Horde, rather than respect Dalaran's neutrality, drove them to the Alliance much like the Sentinels drove the blood elves to the Horde.

We don't actually know the full extent of Aethas's involvement, if he knew what they were doing or even if he was tricked by Garrosh. Simply put, all we know if Garrosh used more underhanded tactics to get inito darnassus, and for all we know Aethas is innocent.

[Thage]

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

Except that there are going to be two Dalarans--the one in Northrend which is going to remain unchanged, and the new one which will be Alliance-only. Mark my words.

[SaburoDaimando]

Something I heard about from Jaina is about Varian, and I wonder. Is Varian becoming less and less Aggressive in the coming patches?

[Avengerx]

well this will make great sense won't it.

New player levels to 70, gets to Warsong hold, the nice tauren lady gives him a quest 'hey, you need to go to dalaran and help there', and the new player wonders 'urm, isn't that an alliance city, it was in a patch recently'. So he goes there, makes it a hearthstone, levels further until in pandaria, see's dalaran overhead and thinks 'didn't I make that my hearthstone before, why are they aggressive to me now?'

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

So what would you suggest? Prohibit Dalaran to horde players during wrath levels? Storywise Dalaran has a huge unexploited potency and I think it's still better than it just sitting there in Northrend.

[Trassk]

Except that there are going to be two Dalarans--the one in Northrend which is going to remain unchanged, and the new one which will be Alliance-only. Mark my words.

that was.. kinda my point.

[Alwek]

well this will make great sense won't it.

New player levels to 70, gets to Warsong hold, the nice tauren lady gives him a quest 'hey, you need to go to dalaran and help there', and the new player wonders 'urm, isn't that an alliance city, it was in a patch recently'. So he goes there, makes it a hearthstone, levels further until in pandaria, see's dalaran overhead and thinks 'didn't I make that my hearthstone before, why are they aggressive to me now?'

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

I'm pretty sure it's just that you don't get it.

And to your point here, When you're lvl 70 your character is not involved with the current timeline (aka the lvl 90 timeline) so Dalaran is still available for both factions. Only when you reach lvl 90 will your character learn that Dalaran picked side.

EDIT: As mentioned above, there will be 2 Dalarans now.

[Thage]

We don't actually know the full extent of Aethas's involvement, if he knew what they were doing or even if he was tricked by Garrosh. Simply put, all we know if Garrosh used more underhanded tactics to get inito darnassus, and for all we know Aethas is innocent.

We know he got there through Dalaran. That makes Aethas guilty of at the very least putting his loyalties to the Horde above his loyalties to the Kirin Tor, and as such Jaina is fully in her rights to expel them. When the expulsion turns into an armed conflict with the Horde providing reinforcements via Lor'themar and Rommath, it makes the situation crystal clear in that Dalaran can no longer afford to remain neutral. Yes, Jaina's temper flares up. Guess why? Her blood-brother's son, who she regards as a nephew, was just reported dead and she was, for the second time, betrayed by a/the Sunreaver(s).

[Trassk]

Something I heard about from Jaina is about Varian, and I wonder. Is Varian becoming less and less Aggressive in the coming patches?

Surely there would be voice files of Varian's reaction to Anduins 'supposed' death, there isn't anything yet.

[Ragnarocket]

well this will make great sense won't it.

New player levels to 70, gets to Warsong hold, the nice tauren lady gives him a quest 'hey, you need to go to dalaran and help there', and the new player wonders 'urm, isn't that an alliance city, it was in a patch recently'. So he goes there, makes it a hearthstone, levels further until in pandaria, see's dalaran overhead and thinks 'didn't I make that my hearthstone before, why are they aggressive to me now?'

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

Blizzard has used phasing before and they can use it again. In fact they seem to consider Outlands and Northrend to be in their own "time pockets" anything you do in those areas is considered in the past.

[luccadeo]

Except that there are going to be two Dalarans--the one in Northrend which is going to remain unchanged, and the new one which will be Alliance-only. Mark my words.

Wouldn't it technically be different times though. The one in Dustwallow will probably take place after the Northrend campaign. They may even keep Rhonin as the leader of the one in Northrend.

[wooootles]

well this will make great sense won't it.

New player levels to 70, gets to Warsong hold, the nice tauren lady gives him a quest 'hey, you need to go to dalaran and help there', and the new player wonders 'urm, isn't that an alliance city, it was in a patch recently'. So he goes there, makes it a hearthstone, levels further until in pandaria, see's dalaran overhead and thinks 'didn't I make that my hearthstone before, why are they aggressive to me now?'

Once more blizzard making the holes in the Swiss cheese.

If the Horde player is an idiot, yes, that could very well happen.

Likely there will be lead-up quests saying "Dalaran has turned on us!"

[Thage]

that was.. kinda my point.

Point being that the leveling story has been anachronistic ever since TBC (where draenei/blood elves went two years in the past after saving their homeland/isles they crashed on), one more instance where they opt not to screw Horde players out of their central hub from 70 to 80 doesn't make any difference.

---------- Post added 2012-10-12 at 11:00 AM ----------

Wouldn't it technically be different times though. The one in Dustwallow will probably take place after the Northrend campaign. They may even keep Rhonin as the leader of the one in Northrend.

Exactly my thinking, and why it's such a nonissue.

[Zxzas]

Phased Dalaran in the Hillsbrad Foothills once you go through all the requirements at level 90? Yes please.