Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[Combatbutler]

Just because the Sunreavers happen to be blood elves has nothing to do it. There is no evidence she would ever want to imprison all blood elves. Your trying to hard to demonize her.

No all I am trying is making her look more human.

Its comments like that I feel go to far. Just because the group consists of members of one race, does not make her motivations racist, especially when the evidence we have points towards her motivations being that she is unable to trust the group because of their, loyalties to the group that violated the neutrality of the city.

Considering all the other lore material she has become somewhat of a racist through her recent experiences,now she discriminates all members of the horde not just blood elves.

[Frontenac]

Japanese internment camps. Japanese attacked U.S, so all Japanese need to be imprisoned. Racism? Yes. Sunreavers (Blood elves) attacked Dalaran, so all blood elves need to be imprisoned. Racism? Yes.

Were they imprisonned because they are blood elves or because they are Sunreavers?

[McCulloch]

Just because the Sunreavers happen to be blood elves has nothing to do it. There is no evidence she would ever want to imprison all blood elves. Your trying to hard to demonize her.

You're right. Because they were blood elves had nothing to do with it. However, since the Sunreavers are blood elves, she imprisoned all blood elves because they all look the same. It's easier to imprison the entire race within your city than to actually go through and pick out the guilty ones. Like the Japanese in WW2. It didn't matter it was the Japanese, it could have been any race but, the U.S. imprisoned everyone because they looked the same.

[Dyroc]

No all I am trying is making her look more human, not the old Jaina that hardly does anything wrong.

You don't make a person more human by attempting to tie characteristics to her that we have no evidence for.

[Frontenac]

You're right. Because they were blood elves had nothing to do with it. However, since the Sunreavers are blood elves, she imprisoned all blood elves because they all look the same. It's easier to imprison the entire race within your city than to actually go through and pick out the guilty ones. Like the Japanese in WW2. It didn't matter it was the Japanese, it could have been any race but, the U.S. imprisoned everyone because they looked the same.

You're giving her motivations that are not expressed anywhere in the datamined sound files.

[Dyroc]

Once again, theres no evidence for this. We know she imprisoned Sunreavers, there is ZERO evidence that she tried to imprison anyone that wasn't specifically a member of that group.

[Frontenac]

No all I am trying is making her look more human.



Considering all the other lore material she has become somewhat of a racist through her recent experiences,now she discriminates all members of the horde not just blood elves.

When you're in war, you will not tolerate citizens of an enemy nation within your border. That's not discrimination. That's pure common sense.

[Combatbutler]

You don't make a person more human by attempting to tie characteristics to her that we have no evidence for.

The evidence is there, you just won't accept it as such or interpret it differently and as such any further discussion is pointless we will never agree, due to that speech I see Jaina as a borderline racist, but that is okay.

When you're in war, you will not tolerate citizens of an enemy nation within your border. That's not discrimination. That's pure common sense.

It is common sense and discrimination at the same time, since common sense isn't always tied to moral standard, for example if you have to kill 500 people to save 1000 it would be common sense to kill 500.

[McCulloch]

Once again, theres no evidence for this. We know she imprisoned Sunreavers, there is ZERO evidence that she tried to imprison anyone that wasn't specifically a member of that group.

All blood elves in Dalaran are apart of the Sunreavers.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 05:13 AM ----------

When you're in war, you will not tolerate citizens of an enemy nation within your border. That's not discrimination. That's pure common sense.

Do you think Jaina would have arrested every member of the Silver Covenant for transporting troops? Jaina isn't the only member of the council. You think Ansirem and Modera would vote to imprison all the high elves? No, but they would certainly vote to imprison every last Sunreaver (blood elves).

[Dyroc]

Considering all the other lore material she has become somewhat of a racist through her recent experiences,now she discriminates all members of the horde not just blood elves.

Once again not racist, there are plenty of horde races that do not align themselves with the horde, she specifically is against the faction that violated her city, and most of that seems is directed straight at Garrosh.

[Combatbutler]

Once again not racist, there are plenty of horde races that do not align themselves with the horde, she specifically is against the faction that violated her city, and most of that seems is directed straight at Garrosh.

Bigot or racist, it doesn't matter really both are about equal in my eyes. She has a right to be angry but she isn't only angry at Garrosh anymore, "once horde always horde I know that now".

[Dyroc]

All blood elves in Dalaran are apart of the Sunreavers.

So you admit you have zero evidence that she went for all blood elves instead of just sunreavers, glad you could admit that.

Do you think Jaina would have arrested every member of the Silver Covenant for transporting troops?

If they also decided to drop a bomb on theramor, probably, but conjecture gets us nowhere.

[Frontenac]

All blood elves in Dalaran are apart of the Sunreavers.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 05:13 AM ----------

Do you think Jaina would have arrested every member of the Silver Covenant for transporting troops? Jaina isn't the only member of the council. You think Ansirem and Modera would vote to imprison all the high elves? No, but they would certainly vote to imprison every last Sunreaver (blood elves).

The Silver Covenant did not use portals to launch an attack against Thunder Bluff. If they did, THEY would have broken Dalaran's neutrality, and the Covenant would have been expelled like the Sunreavers. The Sunreavers were only imprisonned because they refused to comply. Again, you are giving those characters you named motivations they never showed.

[randomone05]

ive never been a huge lore buff...but damn! i guess they arent taking this patch lightly.

[McCulloch]

The Silver Covenant did not use portals to launch an attack against Thunder Bluff. If they did, THEY would have broken Dalaran's neutrality, and the Covenant would have been expelled like the Sunreavers. The Sunreavers were only imprisonned because they refused to comply. Again, you are giving those characters you named motivations they never showed.

Jaina already broke that neutrality when she secured Darnassus from teleportation access. The "your kind" comment can be shown as racist. Sunreavers. Blood elves. She locked up EVERY member guilty or not because they were blood elves.

[Dyroc]

Bigot or racist, it doesn't matter really both are about equal in my eyes. She has a right to be angry but she isn't only angry at Garrosh anymore, "once horde always horde I know that now".

They should be equal in your eyes.

That quote specifically has to do with her ability to trust the horde, at least at the moment. The only one she seems really focused on harming though is Garrosh. That statement is however the closest thing to bigotry that there is evidence for. Not being sure she can trust people who have some ulterior motives is a far cry from wanting them wiped out however.

[Lumineus]

I actually wonder what some of the guys like Khadgar going to say about someone just up and saying ''Welp! We're part of a faction now! Just because!'

Bad example? Khadgar being a neutral questgiver was pretty stupid to begin with. He didn't march into Outland alongside General Turalyon and his wife Alleria "The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc" Windrunner so he could have tea and biscuits with the Horde.

[McCulloch]

She locked them up because they are part of the faction that continually betrayed the city, and she had no way of knowing who she could trust, by all accounts they were even given the chance to leave of their own accord.

People really need to learn how to identify racism.

Part of the faction. Not all of them. Some blood elves are apart of the Sunreavers because they are the only ones who will accept them. They may want to return/go to Dalaran to study but are locked up because of their race. They betrayed the neutrality pact. So did Jaina by securing Darnassus. Jaina's being a hypocrite.

[Dyroc]

Part of the faction. Not all of them. Some blood elves are apart of the Sunreavers because they are the only ones who will accept them.

I swear if you make a statement with actual evidence in support of your theories I may die of shock.

[McCulloch]

I swear if you make a statement with actual evidence in support of your theories I may die of shock.

The Sunreavers had to petition the Kirin Tor to allow them entry. Rhonin allowed them entry. Now Rhonin's gone. To say that the Sunreavers are the only one to accept them is not a stretch by any means. In-fact according to ToW, they were allowed entry but only officially readmitted until after the Northrend War. Also, being condescending doesn't make you look intelligent. It makes you look rude.