Jaina and Dalaran in 5.1 [Heavy lore spoilers]

[Thulvaso]

I would SO LOVE if blood elves went alliance omg yes leave.

What is wrong with the blood elves that makes you say that. They easily come near the top of my list of the most interesting playable races.

[Deleted]

I see no reason for the Blood elfs to join the alliance after Jaina orderd every horde mage in dalaran to be executed or banished in the violet hold

[iscalio]

I see no reason for the Blood elfs to join the alliance after Jaina orderd every horde mage in dalaran to be executed or banished in the violet hold

She did order anyone to be executed. Where are you getting this from?

[Combatbutler]

Sorry but... You forgot the Silver Covenant with its rangers, warmages and priests. There's even Highbornes.

And Jaina/Khadgar/Vereesa > Lor'Themar/Rommath/Halduron.

There areN#t really any highborne in Dalaran and even if they are there, it is already pretty much lore established, that they can hardly stand up to their blood elven counterparts. The silver covenant is very a small organization they can easily be dealt with.

Why do you name Vereesa if you could name Modera for example? Vereesa is as far as lore goes an average ranger at best.

The blood elves still have a few spellbreaker and their magi are all trained in the art to siphon arcane power from others. Not to mention the sunfury alone are very good at exterminating Kirin tor, without outside support Dalaran has no chance of victory against Silvermoon.

[Frontenac]

Enough to beat the crap out of Dalaran. Dalaran alone is no match for Silvermoon, though with full Alliance support that would be a different matter.

Blood Knights, Farstriders, Sunfury, Magister, Sunreaver, Reliquary.

Vs

A few hundred magi at best.

I would not say that. Quel'thalas' population is quite small. Only 10 % of it's original population survived the Scourge onslaught. Of this 10 %, 10% remained High Elves. So that means 9%. Of this 9%, a lot died of magic withdrawal, some others became Wretched. Reclaiming Quel'Thalas from the Scourge also had its toll on blood elven population. In TBC, a lot of Blood Elves died or were lost to the Legion because of Kael'thas betrayal. The Blood Elves were at the brink of extinction, and in about 10 years they didn't have the time to gain much population through natural growth. When you think that, at the height of its might, Quel'thalas needed the humans to fight against an Amani troll invasion, that they needed the Alliance to stop the Orcs in the Second War, that they were unable to repell the Scourge (no one was, granted), I seriously doubt Quel'thalas is able to muster the necessary forces to invade Dalaran alone.

The Blood Knights : There are very few of them. Don't count thousands.
The Farstriders : The bulk of Quel'thalas army (again, only a fraction of its previous might). They are also spread thin to defend Quel'thalas' border and control the Ghostlands.
The Magisters and Sunreavers (which are magisters, by all means) : Again, they do not form the majority of Blood Elven population. Although very powerful, Dalaran's own mages can compete with them.
The Sunfury : It is not known how many returned from Outland and pledged loyalty to Quel'thalas.
The Reliquary : You really count them as military forces? They are but a small organisation of archaeologists.

Dalaran has also been crippled by the Scourge/Legion. However, a lot of mages returned to Dalaran since then. Dalaran is a sprawling city, full of mages, battle-mages and rangers. They also have the advantage defending the place. Also, if they join the Alliance, you can be sure that it will be reinforced. So Lor'themar did exactly the only possible thing against Dalaran : a prison break.

[Verdugo]

I would not say that. Quel'thalas' population is quite small. Only 10 % of it's original population survived the Scourge onslaught. Of this 10 %, 10% remained High Elves. So that means 9%. Of this 9%, a lot died of magic withdrawal, some others became Wretched. Reclaiming Quel'Thalas from the Scourge also had its toll on blood elven population. In TBC, a lot of Blood Elves died or were lost to the Legion because of Kael'thas betrayal. The Blood Elves were at the brink of extinction, and in about 10 years they didn't have the time to gain much population through natural growth. When you think that, at the height of its might, Quel'thalas needed the humans to fight against an Amani troll invasion, that they needed the Alliance to stop the Orcs in the Second War, that they were unable to repell the Scourge (no one was, granted), I seriously doubt Quel'thalas is able to muster the necessary forces to invade Dalaran alone.

The Blood Knights : There are very few of them. Don't count thousands.
The Farstriders : The bulk of Quel'thalas army (again, only a fraction of its previous might). They are also spread thin to defend Quel'thalas' border and control the Ghostlands.
The Magisters and Sunreavers (which are magisters, by all means) : Again, they do not form the majority of Blood Elven population. Although very powerful, Dalaran's own mages can compete with them.
The Sunfury : It is not known how many returned from Outland and pledged loyalty to Quel'thalas.
The Reliquary : You really count them as military forces? They are but a small organisation of archaeologists.

Dalaran has also been crippled by the Scourge/Legion. However, a lot of mages returned to Dalaran since then. Dalaran is a sprawling city, full of mages, battle-mages and rangers. They also have the advantage defending the place. Also, if they join the Alliance, you can be sure the it will be reinforced. So Lor'themar did exactly the only possible thing against Dalaran : a prison break.

You think Blood Elves wouldnt know how to dispel some of the more vital enchantments from the city?

[Frontenac]

You think Blood Elves wouldnt know how to dispel some of the more vital enchantments from the city?

You think Dalaran's mages wouldn't be able to prevent that?

Also, we may have to add Kalecgos and some blue dragons as an asset for Dalaran.

[Sandrox]

You think Blood Elves wouldnt know how to dispel some of the more vital enchantments from the city?

Human Mages > Blood Elf Mages

Thats why almost every notable mage in history has been a human.

[Verdugo]

You think Dalaran's mages wouldn't be able to prevent that?

If anything, they would strike without warning, no time to prevent it.

Human Mages > Blood Elf Mages

Thats why almost every notable mage in history has been a human.

Only because Knaak has a fetish for humans and dragons.

[Resentful]

You think Dalaran's mages wouldn't be able to prevent that?

Also, we may have to add Kalecgos and some blue dragons as an asset for Dalaran.

Okay and Garrosh situation is to use another mana bomb infused with Sha infected stuff that possess the entire dalaran to kill each other

Okay maybe I'm going too far

[Combatbutler]

I would not say that. Quel'thalas' population is quite small. Only 10 % of it's original population survived the Scourge onslaught. Of this 10 %, 10% remained High Elves. So that means 9%. Of this 9%, a lot died of magic withdrawal, some others became Wretched. Reclaiming Quel'Thalas from the Scourge also had its toll on blood elven population. In TBC, a lot of Blood Elves died or were lost to the Legion because of Kael'thas betrayal. The Blood Elves were at the brink of extinction, and in about 10 years they didn't have the time to gain much population through natural growth. When you think that, at the height of its might, Quel'thalas needed the humans to fight against an Amani troll invasion, that they needed the Alliance to stop the Orcs in the Second War, that they were unable to repell the Scourge (no one was, granted), I seriously doubt Quel'thalas is able to muster the necessary forces to invade Dalaran alone.

The Blood Knights : There are very few of them. Don't count thousands.
The Farstriders : The bulk of Quel'thalas army (again, only a fraction of its previous might). They are also spread thin to defend Quel'thalas' border and control the Ghostlands.
The Magisters and Sunreavers (which are magisters, by all means) : Again, they do not form the majority of Blood Elven population. Although very powerful, Dalaran's own mages can compete with them.
The Sunfury : It is not known how many returned from Outland and pledged loyalty to Quel'thalas.
The Reliquary : You really count them as military forces? They are but a small organisation of archaeologists.

Dalaran has also been crippled by the Scourge/Legion. However, a lot of mages returned to Dalaran since then. Dalaran is a sprawling city, full of mages, battle-mages and rangers. They also have the advantage defending the place. Also, if they join the Alliance, you can be sure the it will be reinforced. So Lor'themar did exactly the only possible thing against Dalaran : a prison break.

You do know the Amani empire spread almost the entirety of Northern Lordaeron, and that they needed the humans to stop the orcs is arguably since the orcs were only able to burn Quel'thalas borders and weren't even able to scratch Silvermoon. They couldn't stop the scourge mostly because a member of the Convocation of Silvermoon betrayed his people. Arthas onslaught might have turned out entirely different if Dar'khan had not turned against his people.

Even with their poulation decimated they have still far more citizens than dalaran and equally strong if not stronger magi, the Kirin tor could not withstand the entire army of Quel'thalas that is just delusional, even if we consider all those losses they are still about 7-8% of the original population while Dalaran didn't recover they were besieged by the blue Dragonfligt and many of their magi betrayed them and converted to Malygos.

Dalaran on its own, has a few hundred magi at best, probably a lot less and some Silver covenant rangers, as I said that is not nearly enough to stand against Silvermoon. Not to mention the elves are empowered by the sunwell and can cut the link of the High elves to the restored well crippling essential high elven defenders.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 03:27 PM ----------

Human Mages > Blood Elf Mages

Thats why almost every notable mage in history has been a human.

And that why humans constantly run to the elves for help because they can't do it on their own right ;P

Lore wise they are plenty of very strong mages around, I mean a no name sunreaver was capable to block Jaina frontal assault.

Also, we may have to add Kalecgos and some blue dragons as an asset for Dalaran.

You mean the blue Dragon that was constantly outwitted and kicked around by an elf like a rag doll?

[Sandrox]

And that why humans constantly run to the elves for help because they can't do it on their own right ;P

When has this ever happened? Its always been the other way around, the elves begging the humans for help. Help with the trolls, help with the orcs, help with the scourge. It took months for Lordaeron to fall, Quel'Thalas fell in 3 days. Damn they are so powerful!

[Deleted]

She did order anyone to be executed. Where are you getting this from?

The sound files at page one,

[Combatbutler]

When has this ever happened? Its always been the other way around, the elves begging the humans for help. Help with the trolls, help with the orcs, help with the scourge. It took months for Lordaeron to fall, Quel'Thalas fell in 3 days. Damn they are so powerful!

The only time the elves ever asked for human aid was during the troll wars, which by all means would have wiped the floor with the human after the elves were gone.
The humans came to the elves asking for assistance to help fight orcs and humans didn't help at all with the scourge, so what is your point. Capital city lasted not even a day against the scourge yay Lordaeron sure was strong.

Dalaran in particular asked for elven help, the council of tirisfal wouldn't have existed without them, not to mention it was Dalaran that came crawling to the elves shortly before wotlk.

[delus]

There areN#t really any highborne in Dalaran and even if they are there, it is already pretty much lore established, that they can hardly stand up to their blood elven counterparts. The silver covenant is very a small organization they can easily be dealt with.

Why do you name Vereesa if you could name Modera for example? Vereesa is as far as lore goes an average ranger at best.

The blood elves still have a few spellbreaker and their magi are all trained in the art to siphon arcane power from others. Not to mention the sunfury alone are very good at exterminating Kirin tor, without outside support Dalaran has no chance of victory against Silvermoon.

Silvermoon is pretty evenly matched With Dalaran at best. They could when Quel'thalalas was populated with high elves and there were no blood elves but things are different now. Their population has been repeatedly ravaged first by Arthas and then by Kael'thas a couple of times. It is nothing more than a shadow of itself. Theron isn't stupid though. He is not going to throw the lives of his people away on a fight with Dalaran for the horde.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 04:07 PM ----------

When has this ever happened? Its always been the other way around, the elves begging the humans for help. Help with the trolls, help with the orcs, help with the scourge. It took months for Lordaeron to fall, Quel'Thalas fell in 3 days. Damn they are so powerful!

He's talking about when they weren't in the horde and they weren't calling themselves Sin'dorei, which was before they lost over 90 percent of their population and half their city.

[Combatbutler]

Silvermoon is pretty evenly matched With Dalaran at best. They could when Quel'thalalas was populated with high elves and there were no blood elves but things are different now. Their population has been repeatedly ravaged first by Arthas and then by Kael'thas a couple of times. It is nothing more than a shadow of itself. Theron isn't stupid though. He is not going to throw the lives of his people away on a fight with Dalaran for the horde.

He isn't fighting Dalaran for the Horde, he made that pretty clear.

Dalaran was equally ravaged though, first by the scourge, than many Kirin Tor betrayed them to join Malygos and now a great deal of their magi has been labeled traitors. Not to mention the council of the six is now a council of four.

[Frontenac]

You do know the Amani empire spread almost the entirety of Northern Lordaeron, and that they needed the humans to stop the orcs is arguably since the orcs were only able to burn Quel'thalas borders and weren't even able to scratch Silvermoon. They couldn't stop the scourge mostly because a member of the Convocation of Silvermoon betrayed his people. Arthas onslaught might have turned out entirely different if Dar'khan had not turned against his people.

Even with their poulation decimated they have still far more citizens than dalaran and equally strong if not stronger magi, the Kirin tor could not withstand the entire army of Quel'thalas that is just delusional, even if we consider all those losses they are still about 7-8% of the original population while Dalaran didn't recover they were besieged by the blue Dragonfligt and many of their magi betrayed them and converted to Malygos.

Dalaran on its own, has a few hundred magi at best, probably a lot less and some Silver covenant rangers, as I said that is not nearly enough to stand against Silvermoon. Not to mention the elves are empowered by the sunwell and can cut the link of the High elves to the restored well crippling essential high elven defenders.[COLOR="red"]

The problem is that no country ever uses its whole army to invade another. Theron needs it to defend his own borders and they are spread thin. Remember that he was unwilling to send anyone in Northrend to help the Horde and that Sylvanas needed to make threats. I don't think much as changed since then, or at least we didn't hear of any change yet. I also doubt that Dalaran would join the Alliance without any Alliance forces helpng to defend it. The effort needed to invade Dalaran would be such that even if he succeeds, his army could be crippled.

As for cutting the Sunwell from the High Elves... How would they do that without cutting themselves from the Sunwell? Also, mages do not need the Sunwell to cast spells. Dalaran has its own source of lay energy to tap into and fuel a mage's powers.

Quel'thalas may be able to take Dalaran alone, but it's a risky business and the cost would be so high that they shouldn't do it.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 04:35 PM ----------

He isn't fighting Dalaran for the Horde, he made that pretty clear.

Dalaran was equally ravaged though, first by the scourge, than many Kirin Tor betrayed them to join Malygos and now a great deal of their magi has been labeled traitors. Not to mention the council of the six is now a council of four.

Five. Current members : Jaina Proudmoore, Karlain, Modera, Ansirem Runeweaver and Khadgar. I wouldn't be surprised if Kalecgos becomes the sixth, but there are other prospects to replace Aethas easily and fast.

[Dyroc]

The only time the elves ever asked for human aid was during the troll wars, which by all means would have wiped the floor with the human after the elves were gone.
The humans came to the elves asking for assistance to help fight orcs and humans didn't help at all with the scourge, so what is your point. Capital city lasted not even a day against the scourge yay Lordaeron sure was strong.

Dalaran in particular asked for elven help, the council of tirisfal wouldn't have existed without them, not to mention it was Dalaran that came crawling to the elves shortly before wotlk.

The humans helped during the troll wars partly because they knew they would be next yes, but they did come to help. During the second war, the elves barely helped at all, until they became aware that the trolls were helping the orcs, after which they finally got their shit together. Then a bunch of stuff happened where they both began to distrust each other, and it was the elves who pulled out of the alliance.

During the scourge invasion Arthas had attacked Lordaeron first then went on to destroy Quel'Thalas. It was a fight on two fronts and neither side could really aid the other. at that time.

[Combatbutler]

The problem is that no country ever uses its whole army to invade another. Theron needs it to defend his own borders and they are spread thin. Remember that he was unwilling to send anyone in Northrend to help the Horde and that Sylvanas needed to make threats. I don't think much as changed since then, or at least we didn't hear of any change yet. I also doubt that Dalaran would join the Alliance without any Alliance forces helpng to defend it. The effort needed to invade Dalaran would be such that even if he succeeds, his army could be crippled.

As for cutting the Sunwell from the High Elves... How would they do that without cutting themselves from the Sunwell? Also, mages do not need the Sunwell to cast spells. Dalaran has its own source of lay energy to tap into and fuel a mage's powers.

Quel'thalas may be able to take Dalaran alone, but it's a risky business and the cost would be so high that they shouldn't do it.

That is all i wanted to hear thank you.

The scourge is pretty much gone, so are the Amani so most troops are not bound to Quel'thalas as tightly as they used to be and Lor'thmear makes it very clear that he won't be joining the Alliance any time soon. As for the sunwell something similar has been done before in the war of the Ancients as the highborne cut off all the others from the well. Yes they don't need the sunwell to cast spells, but it magnifies them they don't become so tired etc. while high elves would suffer from their addiction again.

---------- Post added 2012-10-14 at 04:47 PM ----------

The humans helped during the troll wars partly because they knew they would be next yes, but they did come to help. During the second war, the elves barely helped at all, until they became aware that the trolls were helping the orcs, after which they finally got their shit together. Then a bunch of stuff happened where they both began to distrust each other, and it was the elves who pulled out of the alliance.

During the scourge invasion Arthas had attacked Lordaeron first then went on to destroy Quel'Thalas. It was a fight on two fronts and neither side could really aid the other. at that time.

Yes it was the elves who left the Alliance, to be honest these to races don't owe each other, but Dalaran sure owes Silvermoon. Or well you can consider them even now after the Sunreaver betrayals ;P

[Dyroc]

Yes it was the elves who left the Alliance, to be honest these to races don't owe each other, but Dalaran sure owes Silvermoon. Or well you can consider them even now after the Sunreaver betrayals ,P

Umm why, the main help they provided Dalaran, was the business with the Council of Tirisfal, and to be honest helping them solve the problem was as much in their own interest as anyone elses. They know full well the problems the entire planet faces when the legion starts slipping in, having been the cause of it once before themselves.