Remove PvP Stats from PvP Gear

[force18]

Especially if they gem full pvp power, I try to gem lots of half stats pvp power and sec stats so I can get some gains in pve from the gems

If you are getting outdmged by pvpgeared guy in pve in your pve raid set you are doing something wrong.

[mmmmmmmBacon]

Comparing:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=85109
http://www.wowhead.com/item=87170

I doubt that Orb of the Waterspeaker is better in PvP considering the 771 resilience and 2874 power on the malevolent staff.

Well yeah, pvp gear for pvp, whoda thought it. Just as I doubt that with 1300 less spellpower that it'd be better for pve.

[Zstr]

another baby cry, for getting killed

[Deleted]

If you are getting outdmged by pvpgeared guy in pve in your pve raid set you are doing something wrong.

I'm not, but I am wearing two pieces of PvP gear in my PvE set because they were a lot better on all fronts than the respective PvE pieces I had.

The main issue I feel is that, say that you have a full set of PvP gear and enter PvE. You will not be missing out on any stats at all, have everything that a raid set would give you, except it's item level is slightly lower. Unnoticable unless you are progressing on a boss and only getting it to 1 %.

Comparing this scenario to a person entering PvP in full raid gear, he will get slaughtered because he has no resilience and power.

Have I made myself clear enough now? Or do I have to attempt to simplify it even more?

@Baphomette, I agree that the system is perhaps better now than before, but it's far from perfect and could still use some changes.

[Flaks]

I disaggree with your entire post op, your solutions would make things far worse.

No one has shown why this would be the case. I'm convinced that there's nothing but good that would come from a removal of PvP stats as a whole with baseline resilience being kept. Things would need to be moved around here and there in terms of how gear is attained but that should honestly take a backseat to the actual enjoyment of PvP.

[Madus]

I'm not, but I am wearing two pieces of PvP gear in my PvE set because they were a lot better on all fronts than the respective PvE pieces I had.

And here you compare blue pve gear vs epic pvp gear gj. Or wanna post us wowhead compare about your 2 pvp pieces lot better like 2 pve pieces ?

[Flaks]

another baby cry, for getting killed

Wait what...

This thread really devolved. I was hoping for some constructive criticism and subsequent discussion instead of this bickering.

[Deleted]

And here you compare blue pve gear vs epic pvp gear gj.

Good job ignoring the rest of my post.

[Madus]

Good job ignoring the rest of my post.

Good job post wowhead compare of these 2 items...

[Flaks]

They changed PVP itemization to this system because of all the complaints about the Cata PVP model, where PVP gear was higher ilvl than its PVE equivalent but only had resilience and one secondary stat. The QQ was endless, here and elsewhere. The big one that kept recurring was about people wearing high-ilvl PVP gear to sneak into PVE content they wouldn't be allowed to do otherwise, even though it was less DPS. Oh noes!

The new system is the best they've ever come up with:

* PVP gear is lower ilvl than its PVE equivalent, making PVE gear BiS for PVE
* Resilience and Power are there so PVP gear is BiS for PVP
* Resilience and Power not being part of the item budget means "ilvl = DPS"

I am not at all convinced that this current system is even better than the Cataclysm one. I'd argue it's the worst PvP gearing system we've seen to date with how majorly it exacerbates the burst healing and damage problems DESPITE it being lower ilvl than the PvE counterparts.

We are now working with end game pvp maximum of 20% damage reduction through resilience (the lowest it's literally ever been in the history of this game) along with healers obtaining benefits that they absolutely do not need from PvP power.

[Deleted]

Good job post wowhead compare of these 2 items...

I'm just going to start ignoring you now...

[Flaks]

Good job ignoring the rest of my post.

Please. I warned you to not bring the PvP vs. PvE debate in here. If you continue to instigate this flame war I'll report your posts.

[force18]

What kind of pvp do you think you should be doing with pve gear? They don't want you to enter pvp in pve gear. For pvp they have progression also, you start with the pvp craftd gear that is great, then you go to dreadful then the conquest gear and so on. If you are entering pvp with pve gear with baseline 40% res then focus on the people who are in the same boat as you. If you didn;t want to spend the money to gear your toon to start pvp then that is your choice. To get the pvp gear you still have to grind a lot of honor to be able to pve against non human players that affect no one and their monkey.

I choose the hard route of going straight into pvp situations with pve gear and people make fun of this when i join, but I let my skills or teamwork show through and they calm down since everyone has 40% base res and if you are going in alone in pvp situations then that is your own problem. I do quite well with not getting the crafted pvp gear first. If you are being ganked in the world then you were targeted no matter what as now its hard to tell if you are in pvp gear or not with transmog and if you are ganking people first and lose well you knew what gear you had.

I still don't see the issue

[mmmmmmmBacon]

While you will not be as effective in arena or battlegrounds as a player wearing appropriate pvp gear, you can still compete in the sense that you can still win games with good play. You even have 40% resilience base to give you some breathing room.

Kind of like wearing pvp gear in a pve environment: you won't be as effective as a player wearing appropriate pve gear, but you can still be successful in finishing a raid.

You won't see players in 2800+ arenas or rbgs wearing pve gear, and you won't see players pushing heroic raids wearing pvp gear.

[engwee]

I'm not even sure what viable means anymore since everyone uses it in so many different ways. But PvE gear does not work in PvP, against an opponent you will get slaughtered because of the PvP power and resilience, whilst the penalty to PvP gear is to have slightly less item level, something that is barely noticable unless you are in a hardcore PvE guild pushing for that last % on the boss.

---------- Post added 2012-10-28 at 09:11 AM ----------


Comparing:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=85109
http://www.wowhead.com/item=87170

I doubt that Orb of the Waterspeaker is better in PvP considering the 771 resilience and 2874 power on the malevolent staff.

Can't you just quit it? the way it is now pvp gear is better for pvp and pve gear is better for raids.
Who cares if the honor set might be better than a heroic piece? witch is not by the way.

[Flaks]

On the topic of "pvp gear should be better for pvp and pve gear should be better for pve". There's no reason whatsoever for this to be the case when we can instead have a system where gear is equivalent for both allowing for seamless transition between the two sides of the game.

Heroic raiders wiping the floor with mediocre players is a problem with how much gear effects damage output which is why I suggested the ilvl squish. A heroic raider who knows how to PvP but is unable to put time into rated matches should easily be able to put up a fight or beat a 2.2k+ rated PvP'er.

I have outlined the issue with the current system to the best of my ability. If people are unable to grasp what I'm trying to get at then I don't know what to say.

[Deleted]

Remove pvp power, nerf selfheals, make lvl 90 pve gear reduce resi so i can kill pve nabs in pvp servers faster and reduce healing done by like 50%.

[Dumsnut]

No one has shown why this would be the case. I'm convinced that there's nothing but good that would come from a removal of PvP stats as a whole with baseline resilience being kept. Things would need to be moved around here and there in terms of how gear is attained but that should honestly take a backseat to the actual enjoyment of PvP.

No one has show why it would be bad to remove PvP power?

Oh.... I don't know, try... every expansion there is?
The absence of PvP power has made PvE gear 100% must in competetive PvP. Every expansion, wether it's 1 or 2 trinkets or 2set-bonus, etc. Always been a 100% must.
Now it isn't. I call that an improvement, even if PvP power might not be correctly tuned atm.
Wich I don't think is the problem either, I think it's a problem of hunters, mages and warriors with too much cc or cooldown-stacking to burst down someone in 1,5sec.
Problems that are being adressed, by for example nerfing mages CC/CD's such as ring of frost and deep freeze. Or hunters burst with the pets. And warrior cc's overlaping eachother and being ridiculous to get through as a healer.

[mmmmmmmBacon]

On the topic of "pvp gear should be better for pvp and pve gear should be better for pve". There's no reason whatsoever for this to be the case when we can instead have a system where gear is equivalent for both allowing for seamless transition between the two sides of the game.

Heroic raiders wiping the floor with mediocre players is a problem with how much gear effects damage output which is why I suggested the ilvl squish. A heroic raider who knows how to PvP but is unable to put time into rated matches should easily be able to put up a fight or beat a 2.2k+ rated PvP'er.

I have outlined the issue with the current system to the best of my ability. If people are unable to grasp what I'm trying to get at then I don't know what to say.

So you're saying that PvE players, who in some cases can clear a heroic raid within weeks of it being released, should be allowed to go into Arena or Rated Battlegrounds with their heroic ilvl gear which is then transmuted into high-tier pvp gear against players who normally have to pvp for months before finishing their sets? Effectively making it pointless to aim for pvp gear at all?

And vice-versa, if a group of low-skill pvpers who have finished their sets of gear after taking months to acquire it, walks into a raid and has their gear turned into heroic tier gear, and doesn't have to deal with weeks of farming the gear and is able to complete the raid after getting mechanics down?

No.

[Flaks]

No one has show why it would be bad to remove PvP power?

Oh.... I don't know, try... every expansion there is?
The absence of PvP power has made PvE gear 100% must in competetive PvP. Every expansion, wether it's 1 or 2 trinkets or 2set-bonus, etc. Always been a 100% must.
Now it isn't. I call that an improvement, even if PvP power might not be correctly tuned atm.
Wich I don't think is the problem either, I think it's a problem of hunters, mages and warriors with too much cc or cooldown-stacking to burst down someone in 1,5sec.
Problems that are being adressed, by for example nerfing mages CC/CD's such as ring of frost and deep freeze. Or hunters burst with the pets. And warrior cc's overlaping eachother and being ridiculous to get through as a healer.

The reason those PvE items were mandatory was because they provided benefits that weren't flat stats like any trinket nowadays. Which is why there's no QQ about pve gear in pvp right now. And why there wasn't QQ about pve gear in pvp in s5, s6, s7, s9 or s10.

The trinkets available from PvP right now are equivalent to those available from PvE. If they continue to not add gimmicky PvE items it'll be fine.

One way or another, if pvp stats were completely removed, we could actually see an influx of those types of items through pvp instead of blizzard wants.