Raider Punishment Advice

[Kuni Zyrekai]

"dog eat dog" "dime a dozen" and "intents and purposes"

Not trying to be an ass, just heading off future trolls from your malapropisms.

He was making fun of "pre-madonna". It's prima donna. The line of malapropisms were the joke.

[BobAwesome]

You should kick this individual asap. Insubordination should not be tolerated at all.

[clevin]

People of any age do not like to be singled out. They do not like to be called out in front of other people on their mistakes. They do not like to be blamed for wipes in front of their peers. There is absolutely no reason to do any of those things publically if you don't have to. The fact that their raider got pissed about being called out is evidence to this fact.

It's a casual raiding environment where a bunch of them are real life friends. This obviously isn't a super serious raiding environment where that kind of criticism is normal and expected. Being diplomatic about the situation has no downsides. It doesn't matter whether your raiders are a bunch of young teenagers or older adults, if you make people feel insulted or defensive, they may react dramatically and drama is bad for the raid.

The OP is talking about one wipe, and mentioned the guy has made similar bad call outs in the past. We're not talking about someone who is constantly wiping the raid. We're talking about an occasional situation that is super irritating but probably not really interfering with progress on a regular basis. It's an issue that can wait until after raid. It's certainly an issue that can be handled in whispers or a private TS channel.

I had this exact situation in Naxx on a Sapph attempt and I disagree with you. Here's the thing - everyone, not just the offender, needs to know that you don't contradict the RL in raid. Other issues about his behavior in general? Yeah, talk about those privately. But when someone blatantly tries to overrule the RL in the raid channel it needs to be dealt with then and there.

What happened in my cas was that I called out for a wipe and one raider insisted that we keep going. I told him, in the raid channel, that he wasn't the RL, I was and I wanted people to wipe the attempt. He got pissed, logged. I then explained to everyone that it's not about my ego, it's about having clear directions and that as RL that was my call. If they had suggestions, make them before a pull or after a wipe, but that during a fight *I* decided on what should happen so that we'd have clarity. People were fine with this. Could I have handled it privately? Sure, but the raiders were, during an attempt, hearing two things. I wanted them to know what they were to do for that attempt and also that you did not do that to the RL.

As for the 'they're a group of friends.." you don't treat your friends like the tank treated the RL or the raid. It's a two way street - want respect? Give it.

[sugarlily]

it's a doggy dog world, and pre-madonna raiders are a diamond dozen for all intensive purposes

~.^
I was trying to stop myself from replying & asking if he meant they were born in pre-madonna 1980's years etc.
Besides that he had good advice though :D

[Halicia]

Our raider didn't take too kindly to that suggestion, and logged off, causing us to have to cancel the raid 2 hours early.

Kick him.

You can find a PUG from trade with better behavior, so why would you accept this from a guildmate ?

The 'talking over the raidleader' probably could have been worked with, but ninjalogging in the middle of a scheduled guildraid he was part of is disrespectful of EVERY member of the raid/guild, not just the one(s) he had a disagreement with.

[Jaxsz]

People of any age do not like to be singled out. They do not like to be called out in front of other people on their mistakes. They do not like to be blamed for wipes in front of their peers. There is absolutely no reason to do any of those things publically if you don't have to. The fact that their raider got pissed about being called out is evidence to this fact.

It's a casual raiding environment where a bunch of them are real life friends. This obviously isn't a super serious raiding environment where that kind of criticism is normal and expected. Being diplomatic about the situation has no downsides. It doesn't matter whether your raiders are a bunch of young teenagers or older adults, if you make people feel insulted or defensive, they may react dramatically and drama is bad for the raid.

The OP is talking about one wipe, and mentioned the guy has made similar bad call outs in the past. We're not talking about someone who is constantly wiping the raid. We're talking about an occasional situation that is super irritating but probably not really interfering with progress on a regular basis. It's an issue that can wait until after raid. It's certainly an issue that can be handled in whispers or a private TS channel.


It's inferred. A 25man would be able to easily run down one person.

I completely agree, and that's why when you're called out for standing in shit or being an idiot you'll remember to not do it next time.

If your raiders can't handle being told to stop failing and want to rage quit about it, you're better off since A: they can't take criticism or responsibility for themselves and the time they're wasting for others, and B: probably sucked anyway.

Also, the idiots saying it's sad that "10 man is assumed" are ... idiots. The ORIGINAL POST STATES:

The guild officers are in agreement that we can't let that kind of behavior go unpunished - you don't just log off and ruin 9 other peoples plans because you didn't get your way.

Does it get more clear?

[jifjosh]

He was making fun of "pre-madonna". It's prima donna. The line of malapropisms were the joke.

I'm shore people we're left in seams.

[Deleted]

Your vocabulary - 'punishment', 'acting out' - suggests that you have a rather inflated view of your own importance and a misplaced sense of authority. I wonder if that affected how you handled this, which led to the logging out mid-raid. It also suggests that you don't raid as a team, but as self-appointed leaders and their lackeys. If the assumption others made that you're a 10 man group is correct then your approach doesn't make sense, every 10 man team I've been in has worked as a team, with everyone being able to call things as they see them during a fight and adjusting tactics on the fly. As this is an issue I assume you must be a 25 man raid as that approach doesn't work with so many more people.

He has expressed interest in raid leading as he thinks he knows everything, but I know he'd be terrible at it, so it'd just be a waste of everyone else's time. A good lesson for him perhaps, but probably just as disruptive as havig to cancel raids.

Have you ever given him the opportunity, or did you just decide that you know he'd be awful and that's that? Sounds like he's not the only one who thinks he knows everything. Why not give him, or others that are really interested in doing so, the opportunity to start leading occasional farm raids to begin with, and see how things go? Training up one or two backup raid leaders is invaluable for the guild as a whole. He can't be all that terrible at seeing what's going if he's identifying mistakes your raid leader has made.

Having been That Mouthy Tank Who Thinks He's Better Than Everyone who had close to this situation, the solution is a private conversation explaining to him that not only is he disrupting the raid and guild, but he is doing it in one of the most insulting ways possible. Explain that logging shows a distinct lack of respect, and mutual respect among all raid members is what make the raid go 'round.

Yes, this. It seems like there's a lack of respect all round - he hasn't shown respect to the rest of the raid group, and you certainly don't seem to have any respect for him.

You need to have that private conversation and to make it clear that contradicting the raid leader mid-fight is disruptive, not constructive and unfair to the other 24 people. You also need to make it clear how unacceptable mid-raid logging is. But you also need to drop the attitude and the ego tripping, and learn to treat people with respect yourself. You need to have a plan in place for what to do if he does either again, and stick to it, even if it means you can't raid because you've under-recruited - if he's really causing so much disruption then it'll be a relief for everyone not to have to raid with him.

[Darkfriend]

The biggest issue is the rage quitting.

[Varyk]

honestly the only thing you can do to make him "care" is take away loot privileges until he gets the message. Set it for an amount of raids he participates in, not days/weeks. 2 raids (lockouts) seems sufficient. this on top of the detailed discussion. it does sound a lot like there are the officers and the people who arent who do what theyre told.

[cFortyfive]

Remove from roster as soon as you have recruited a replacement as that "friendship" doesn't seem to mean much anyways.

[Turichu]

I agree with the private meeting to have a talk with him.

The way you described your guild, his nerves is on the edge and he is acting out for no real reason.

This is what I think, It has nothing to do with him not getting his way. He most likely has other issues wich may not be game related at all.
This is problebly just his outlet.

Try and get answers to why they heavy reactions are emerging and you might get at good raider out of it. How ever if his problem is guild related and he sincerly feels that your guild is doing it wrong. He might be in the wrong guild.

[oplawlz]

Bench him and pug the spot. If you're lucky the puggle will be decent and the drama queen will leave the guild, thus facilitating a smooth transition.

[Deleted]

Our raider didn't take too kindly to that suggestion, and logged off, causing us to have to cancel the raid 2 hours early.

For all the guilds i've been in over the past 3-4 years and will continue to be in, that would have meant an insta guildkick, no discussion at all.
Don't know what more to say, i would personally have kicked him aswell, doesnt matter if he's been in the guild since vanilla as an officer->auto guildkick for being emo and leaving a raid middle of it.

[Deleted]

Kick him, set an example to the guild, recruit more

[3DTyrant]

I'd personally put him on the side lines for say, 2 weeks, maybe 3 (if he's done it more than once, then a longer amount of time) and if he continues to show this behavior, talk to the raid/guild leader and officers about having him removed completely, in MY opinion atleast

[florestan]

You need better officers - it is imho extremely unlikely that your raider did ragequit the raid because of a single incident.

It is far more likely that this was a release of frustration and anger that had built up over several weeks and that the verbal reprimand he got for contradicting the RL was only the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

The question is "Why were you not aware that this raider was close to snapping?" or "If you were aware - why didn't you do anything to defuse the situation while it was still building up (or remove him on your terms if defusing was not possible)?"

Managing burnout, internal conflicts, personal animosities, ... is the responsibility of RL and GM and they rely on their officers and class leaders to make them aware of any troubling signs as early as possible.

You have to know when players change their play patterns (outside of raids), become untypically sarcastic, voice frustration behind your back, go through a difficult time irl, argue amongst each other, .... but you can't be online 24/7 and people act differently around you.

What you need is trusted lieutenants who make you aware of potential issues before they blow up.

Yes, this is just like kindergarten. Any leadership position is that way. You are lucky that in WoW the damage a disgruntled team member can cause is extremely limited.

[Deleted]

The calling stuff out wouldn't warrant punishment in any way to me, just a polite chat via whisper after the raid.

Raging and logging off mid-raid though would be an instant kick from any raid team I ever played on. I've been in raids where I've been spoken to disrespectfully by other members of the raid/guild/leadership, and I completed the raid like a mature person, and then whispered them at the end and said look - I'm really not happy with the way you spoke to me, and we sorted it out like adults. If he wasn't happy with whatever you said to him, that is the mature way to handle it, not screwing over the rest of the team to have a temper tantrum.

You may have been in the wrong in confronting him on a semi-public channel and also in your wording, I really don't know.... but it doesn't matter what someone said to him, there was no excuse for him to be a massive drama queen and show zero team play.

So I'd be replacing him myself... no one needs drama queens in their raid, assuming we've got all the information here anyway.

[casually]

if you desperatly need him, keep him but bump him down to the lowest on loot priority.

if you can mute him do so. most people can communicate just fine in raid chat, i prefer that way myself to keep the vent channel clear for raid leaders to talk.

and if you find someone that can do his job way better than him and isnt a total ass. replace him.

[dennisdkramer]

it's a doggy dog world, and pre-madonna raiders are a diamond dozen for all intensive purposes

i lol'd D