Combat and rupture

[Khas]

I read on EJ that not using rupture is around 1-2% dps loss. Also, I was following discussion there about rupture but with so much math i got lost. If i get this right someone said that rupture ticks dont scale with bandit's guile - english is not my native language so I might have figured all that wrong - if so, please correct me. So my question is, would it be a good idea to use rupture only at red bandit's guile ? Also what are your thoughts about using rupture ?
Reason why I opened a topic on this forum is simply cause I dont have account on EJ. Thanks

[Rotesbart]

Rupture does scale with bandits guile level, it doesn't care when its applied, it checks your buff each time it deals damage and does so accordingly.

Rupture is only included in the combat rotation because it has a higher damage per energy spent ratio than eviscerate, so any time rupture is not up, it is better to apply a rupture than an eviscerate unless:
The mob is going to die before the full duration of rupture ends
The mob is going to become immune/inactive before rupture ends
The mob has a debuff on it that increases damage.

The third one is because while rupture is smart to check bandit's guile stacks every time it ticks, this is because bandits guile is a buff on YOU. Debuffs on the mob do not scale rupture's damage up when they go on, so any time there's a temporary damage taken debuff on the boss, use eviscerate.

For example, Rogue's Find Weakness or Prey on the Weak talents are debuffs on the mob, so if you have those rolling, use eviscerate, as it will deal increased damage. Rupture will not.

That all said; combat's rotation is much simpler if you completely ignore rupture. If you have any problem juggling all your finishers and stuff, and dropping rupture makes you more comfortable, it may net you more dps overall to drop it.

[eijin]

it doesn't care when its applied, it checks your buff each time it deals damage and does so accordingly.

fully right shy of this part. EJ made a direct responce to someone saying something similar to this.

" That's how it used to work in Cata, but it's different now. Rupture's damage is determined by our insight level when it is applied and it does not dynamically update until/unless it is refreshed. So if you apply rupture during deep insight then all ticks will benefit from deep insight, even those that happen after deep insight has faded. There is proof of this in the Mists Mechanics Testing topic, post 38 by shadowboy813 "
source: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130893-...6/#post2209105

so in short. if all 3 of your givens are in play. if you evis, 100% of the evis damage will count at whatever insight level youre at. if you rupture, 100% of the rupture will count at the current insight level. therefor blow for blow, rupture will always be better damage per energy than evis (25 energy vs 35).

[Deleted]

To the posters above, you left out the single most important part:
- Rupture does not cleave to other targets via Blade Flurry!

That's a very important thing to keep in mind. Combat, as of now, is a very bad single target spec, and is chiefly used for fights involving heavy cleaving. In other words, whenever you actually want to play Combat, Rupture should either be dropped entirely or only be used for temporary single-target phases. Rupture is only a theoretical dps-increase, assuming it's a single target fight. As soon as a second target is involved, Rupture becomes a heavy loss.

[Gylindril1]

fully right shy of this part. EJ made a direct responce to someone saying something similar to this.

" That's how it used to work in Cata, but it's different now. Rupture's damage is determined by our insight level when it is applied and it does not dynamically update until/unless it is refreshed. So if you apply rupture during deep insight then all ticks will benefit from deep insight, even those that happen after deep insight has faded.

How does this work with rolling rupture. Is it like before, where refreshing a rupture applied during deep insight will roll into the new rupture? If so, I'd think you would wait to rupture until you have deep insight and continue to roll it sub 3 seconds throughout the fight. I know in Cata it worked that way, I played sub and Master of Subtlelty affected rupture that way.

[eijin]

How does this work with rolling rupture. Is it like before, where refreshing a rupture applied during deep insight will roll into the new rupture? If so, I'd think you would wait to rupture until you have deep insight and continue to roll it sub 3 seconds throughout the fight. I know in Cata it worked that way, I played sub and Master of Subtlelty affected rupture that way.

from EJ:

"Im not sure if this was mentioned somewhere already, but i tested the following with Rupture, because i was concerned if it turns out to be a DPS-loss and you probably want to know:

- Apply 5 CP Rupture with a specific insight level (shallow, moderate, deep)
- Clip the last tick(duration <= 3 seconds) with a 5 CP Rupture of a lower insight level compared to the one you've been in when applying the first Rupture.

Result:
The clipped tick not only increased the duration of the new Rupture by up to 3 seconds(this was known before ofc), but also merged the former higher damage due to a higher inside level into the first tick of the new rupture.

Values:
- 5 CP no insight ticks: 2429 dmg
- 5 CP deep insight ticks: 3157 dmg
- 5 CP no insight rupture clipping a tick of a 5 CP deep insight rupture ticks: 5585(~2429+3157) dmg for the first tick and the usual 2429 for the others"

source: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130893-...8/#post2211070

what this means is if rupture does 10,000 damage per tick
you do rupture at no insight for whatever reason, its ticking for 10k
at deep insight (+30% damage) and 2 seconds left on rupture you rupture again
new rupture will logically tick for 13k, old rupture was 10k
first tick of new rupture will tick for 23k, then the rest will tick for 13k

---------- Post added 2012-10-30 at 08:06 PM ----------

To the posters above, you left out the single most important part:
- Rupture does not cleave to other targets via Blade Flurry!

That's a very important thing to keep in mind. Combat, as of now, is a very bad single target spec, and is chiefly used for fights involving heavy cleaving. In other words, whenever you actually want to play Combat, Rupture should be dropped entirely. Rupture is only a theoretical dps-increase, assuming it's a single target fight. As soon as a second target is involved, Rupture becomes a heavy loss.

keep in mind there are many fights where you go combat for the cleave, but will still spend a good bit of time single target. the 4th and 5th bosses in the new raid are prime examples, maybe spirit kings hardmode too. as well as i personally have a heroic dagger but cant get better than an LFR fist. if someone had the opposite luck, they would go combat even for single target fights.

the OP also mentioned the 1-2% dps loss from lfr, this is valid if you are talking single target dps, so i guess i left out an answer to a question that wasnt asked?

[Deleted]

i figured that was a given, and i figured the poster was referring to combat's single target rotation (as that is what EJ was referring to with the 1-2% damage loss he quoted). so i guess i didn't answer what wasn't being asked?

I'm sure there are those with different luck than me. I have a HM dagger, but cant manage to get above a raid finder fist. If someone had the opposite luck and had a HM fists and only raid finder daggers, they would be combat even on single target fights.
hardmode spirit kings, 30%+ uptime of a second target, which could easily put combat ahead in terms of DPS, however that's 70% of the fight that is single target
Wind lord and amber-shaper are undoubtedly combat fights due to high cleave uptime, but both contain a TON of single target time.

just because combat is mostly really chosen for it's cleave doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to know what to do when you aren't cleaving O.o

What's with the defensive attitude?
1. The OP never specified whether he meant the single- or the cleave-rotation of Combat, so if you "didn't answer what wasn't asked" you also answered what wasn't asked... I, just like you, answered what wasn't specified, so I frankly don't see the problem. I really hope you won't start any semantic arguments...
2. Yes, rogues are generally dominated by their current weapons; even though Combat is sub-par for single target fights, it'll simply out-scale the difference with a superior weapon.
3. Indeed, know what to do when cleaves aren't involved is not a bad idea, and if you'd reread my post, you'll find that I didn't suggest you completely stop dps'ing when Blade Flurry isn't in use... So I frankly don't understand the purpose of this sentence at all.

Let me reiterate what just happened:
- OP asks a question
- You answer it
- I add something to your answers, however trivial it may be
- You're outraged at my addition.....?

One of the points above seems slightly out of place...

[eijin]

I wasn't raging. And i had included in my response what lead me to believe that OP was talking single target, his very first sentence citing something that was talking single target. I fully agree when blade flurrying you should drop rupture, i disagree with:

In other words, whenever you actually want to play Combat, Rupture should be dropped entirely.

for the reasons i listed. not raging, not semantics, just disagreeing :P (adding emoticons to fill in the emotions that black text on an offwhite page may leave out)

[Deleted]

I wasn't raging. And i had included in my response what lead me to believe that OP was talking single target, his very first sentence citing something that was talking single target. I fully agree when blade flurrying you should drop rupture, i disagree with:

for the reasons i listed. not raging, not semantics, just disagreeing :P (adding emoticons to fill in the emotions that black text on an offwhite page may leave out)

Hmm, yes, I see. I'll have that edited.

[shadowboy]

fully right shy of this part. EJ made a direct responce to someone saying something similar to this.

" That's how it used to work in Cata, but it's different now. Rupture's damage is determined by our insight level when it is applied and it does not dynamically update until/unless it is refreshed. So if you apply rupture during deep insight then all ticks will benefit from deep insight, even those that happen after deep insight has faded. There is proof of this in the Mists Mechanics Testing topic, post 38 by shadowboy813 "
source: http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t130893-...6/#post2209105

so in short. if all 3 of your givens are in play. if you evis, 100% of the evis damage will count at whatever insight level youre at. if you rupture, 100% of the rupture will count at the current insight level. therefor blow for blow, rupture will always be better damage per energy than evis (25 energy vs 35).

With the caveat that if you apply rupture at moderate insight you will not have the opportunity to apply it during deep insight due to the 24 sec duration of rupture. I only apply rupture during no insight, early shallow insight, and deep insight.

---------- Post added 2012-10-31 at 01:27 AM ----------

what this means is if rupture does 10,000 damage per tick
you do rupture at no insight for whatever reason, its ticking for 10k
at deep insight (+30% damage) and 2 seconds left on rupture you rupture again
new rupture will logically tick for 13k, old rupture was 10k
first tick of new rupture will tick for 23k, then the rest will tick for 13k[COLOR="red"]

I assure, that is NOT how it works.

Here is how it works:

Say you apply rupture at no insight for 10k a tick:

Assuming 0% crit chance, It will tick for 10k every 2 seconds. Let's say you re-apply at deep insight with 1.5 seconds left of rupture. The new rupture is extended to 25.5 seconds and the last tick of the previous rupture happens at the new value--that is 13k damage.

So applying this same-strength rupture at no insight, clipping 1 tick at deep insight you get:
11 ticks at 10k, 13 ticks at 13k, for a total of 279k.

If you apply a rupture at deep insight and clip the last tick with a no insight rupture you get:
11 ticks at 13k, 13 ticks at 10k, for a total of 273k.

No clipping:
12 ticks at 10k, 12 ticks at 13k, for a total of 276k.

Moral of the story. Never, ever, ever clip the last tick of a deep insight rupture. Also, if you can, DO clip the last tick of a lower-insight rupture with a deep insight rupture.

[rt7]

i don't use it as combat because I have to watch rupture all the time on assassn or sub., so I like at least one spec I don't have to manage it, a 1% loss isn't a factor to me because that also revolves around having a perfect rotation which never happens anyway.

[Khas]

Thanks for all your answers. Helped a lot. Also, I forgot to mention question was about single target. I have another question, for cleave fights, do you use crimson tempest or just do normal rotation with blade flurry ? or you just refresh crimson tempest dot and continue normal rotation ? Thanks

[eijin]

crimson tempest dosnt copy over with blade flurry. I dont know for sure the exact number at which its worth it to crimson tempest, but its very likely something higher like 5+. on a fight where you have 2 targets you want to do your normal single target rotation, except with evis every time while youre BFing.

[Stede]

Thanks for all your answers. Helped a lot. Also, I forgot to mention question was about single target. I have another question, for cleave fights, do you use crimson tempest or just do normal rotation with blade flurry ? or you just refresh crimson tempest dot and continue normal rotation ? Thanks

I'd never FoK / CT a cleave fight (2-3 mobs). 5 or more targets, I'd roll sub and roll SnD with FoK / CT to keep up SV and watch my #s top the charts.

So, cleaving, in the Combat Rogue sense, isn't the same as AoE'ing - not in MoP, in my experience, at least. For cleaving (2-3), just keep Slice and Dice and RvS up and make sure you overlap Shadow Blades with Adrenaline Rush. Finisher should always be Eviscerate, when not refreshing Slice and Dice.

[Khas]

I'd never FoK / CT a cleave fight (2-3 mobs). 5 or more targets, I'd roll sub and roll SnD with FoK / CT to keep up SV and watch my #s top the charts.

So, cleaving, in the Combat Rogue sense, isn't the same as AoE'ing - not in MoP, in my experience, at least. For cleaving (2-3), just keep Slice and Dice and RvS up and make sure you overlap Shadow Blades with Adrenaline Rush. Finisher should always be Eviscerate, when not refreshing Slice and Dice.

Thanks, that's what I've been doing for the combat part. Just wanted to make sure I was doing it right

[Sionorra]

Rupture does scale with bandits guile level, it doesn't care when its applied, it checks your buff each time it deals damage and does so accordingly.

Rupture is only included in the combat rotation because it has a higher damage per energy spent ratio than eviscerate, so any time rupture is not up, it is better to apply a rupture than an eviscerate unless:
The mob is going to die before the full duration of rupture ends
The mob is going to become immune/inactive before rupture ends
The mob has a debuff on it that increases damage.

The third one is because while rupture is smart to check bandit's guile stacks every time it ticks, this is because bandits guile is a buff on YOU. Debuffs on the mob do not scale rupture's damage up when they go on, so any time there's a temporary damage taken debuff on the boss, use eviscerate.

For example, Rogue's Find Weakness or Prey on the Weak talents are debuffs on the mob, so if you have those rolling, use eviscerate, as it will deal increased damage. Rupture will not.

That all said; combat's rotation is much simpler if you completely ignore rupture. If you have any problem juggling all your finishers and stuff, and dropping rupture makes you more comfortable, it may net you more dps overall to drop it.

A KEY POINT TO NOTE!: because rupture follows the buff of bandits guile, you need to apply it when your BG stacks are low because its damage will increase over the BG stack duration unlike evis which is all 5CP points of damage at once. This is one of the most complicated and least known issues regaurding rupture. If you are at 3 stacks of BG it is ALWAYS better to use evis because it will hit 30% harder instantly as opposed to rupture for which the first few ticks would hit hard but would then drop dramatically when the BG stack falls off. I don't know when the exact time threshold is on rupture being a dps loss in the BG stacks but I believe that its shortly after the second stack comes up. This is one of the main reasons alot of people do not experience a dps increase with rupture. I hope that clears up some confusion.

** Also of note; this is target dummy testable. You can apply rupture then stack of BG and watch the damage of the rupture ticks increase. I've dont it .

[shadowboy]

That's outdated information, Sionorra. The entire rupture duration is based on the state of bandit's guile at cast time. Rupture does NOT update on a per-tick basis with bandit's guile. If you cast bandit's guile at no insight and progress to shallow insight, the tick damage will not increase.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

[Knuckle]

I don't rupture, it's not worth the hassle.

[Lemons]

Moral of the story. Never, ever, ever clip the last tick of a deep insight rupture. Also, if you can, DO clip the last tick of a lower-insight rupture with a deep insight rupture.

Real moral of the story: Don't rupture and then you don't have to worry about that crazy shit.

[Deleted]

The state of your Bandit's Guile isn't as important as some of you make it out to be. Rupture does more damage per energy than one Eviscerate whether it's at 0%, 10%, 20% or 30%. Unless you are actively saving up 5 anticipation charges to delay finishers which I somehow doubt hardly anyone does you should simply apply Rupture the moment it drops off. Also reapplying before the final tick doesn't impact or change your DPS in any way shape or form. The tick still goes off with the damage and insight level it was applied.

tl;dr,
If you don't have Rupture ticking on your target, you aren't cleaving with Blade Flurry and the full duration of Rupture will tick, apply Rupture. If you used Eviscerate on accident or couldn't Rupture for some reason, oh well no big deal. But weaving in Ruptures regardless of your state of procs and buffs will increase your DPS a slight amount.