[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Fhi]

People are fine to do as they will and run as they chose. If your raid needs the dps that badly than you're swagging. But at the point where the argument loses logic and becomes a fight for your honour, it losses credibility.

I think this is a good point to keep in mind. It's almost the same case with talents - the new talents are supposed to be user-preference (it's not perfect, but it's the first run at the new system), but there are still people who claim that certain talents are "Take it or you're bad". There is no clear winner between haste and mastery. Pick one that is suitable for your raid team and don't let others weigh you down on your choice - until such time is determined that one stat is clearly better than the other.

[Deleted]

Not really true. Some talents are simply better than other talents, others are a matter of choice, others are situational.
But for the most part, yes, talents is not set in stone, but for a specific fight, they mostly are.
I can look and say "Well, for MGV these talents is a possible talent build". However if I look at a specific fight say "X" HC, there is usually no choice, since the talents are not similar, they shine on different fights.

First tier is a matter of choice / situational. Personally I could make an argument why LaoTL is better for the first 5 bosses in MGV whilst PoJ shines on Emps + HoF.
Second tier is a bit situational aswell, most often it is a choice between hammer / BoG. BoG is a decent single target slow which holds value in some fights which needs kiting of a slowable add.
Third tier, sacred shield. Not even a debate.
Fourth tier, US is the reliable one here, HoP and Clemency are both very situational and could be used for some fights, however for the most part US wins hands down.
Fifth tier, the ever SW vs HA debate, personally I like SW for the increased healing. However for some fights I much rather prefer HA. ( basically when 2 minute physical damage reduction cd is needed )
Sixth tier. Lights hammer is the defensive one here. Adds an extra raid healing cooldown which is awesome, aswell as very good AoE damage.
ES is good for when LH is not needed.
HP is not even a choice here for 99.99% of the fights.

[Elathi]

Following gems should be removed from the guide

Defenders Imperial Amethyst ( from both blue and red socket )
Fine Vermillion Onyx ( from both yellow and red socket )
Precise Primordial Ruby
Regal Wild Jade ( from both blue and yellow socket )

Following gems should be added

320exp
160 mastery/160 hit
160 haste/160 hit
160 haste/120 stamina

Bolded are the same thing.

In the guide the 320 parry gem is mistakenly called Precise, when it's Flashing.

Not that I'm disagreeing.

[Deleted]

Bolded are the same thing.

In the guide the 320 parry gem is mistakenly called Precise, when it's Flashing.

Not that I'm disagreeing.

Yeah, sorry, exactly what I meant, I just copied from the guide the names :P
Parry should be removed, exp added.

[MerinPally]

Will go over the gems bit once I'm out the shower, before I head off to the shops

---------- Post added 2012-11-04 at 06:32 PM ----------

Ok finally got around to updating the gem bit.

Added in the extra gems but not removed the ones you asked to be removed because whilst they are not the most useful gems now, they aren't too completely disastrous and if people are reading the gems section they can see the bit above about stat priority and know which to prioritise. All I wanted to do was give the entire spread of ones that are acceptable to use (although some are clearly better than others, I see no reason to hide knowledge from people - otherwise I'd go and edit other chunks out and then the guide would be confusing as it wouldn't correlate with other ones!).

[Kanadei]

HP is not even a choice here for 99.99% of the fights.

Holy Prism is actually the only talent where I go against the grain and theorycrafting for personal preference on the matter.

I know Light's Hammer is the smart choice for tanks, and I've seen the potential there is for using it but....

Holy Prism gives me an additional ranged move which is targetable and on a short-ish cooldown.

This is excellent for picking up adds at a distance, popping while running in and out (like resetting stacks on Elegon) and it's a reliable self heal (pops for around 50-80k iirc compared to 8k per tick of Light's Hammer).

It's also great for questing due to the above, and helps a lot for transmog runs or old world raids.

In short, I agree with this post about the talent system.

It's almost the same case with talents - the new talents are supposed to be user-preference (it's not perfect, but it's the first run at the new system), but there are still people who claim that certain talents are "Take it or you're bad".

While there are a few "no brainers" like SS, there are several options which come down to choice or personal preference and I like the addition of "flavour" spells which don't completely ruin your spec if you choose the one most people don't.

That being said, if I'm missing something amazeballs about Light's Hammer feel free to tell me.

[Xs]

What I like about Light's Hammer is simply it's versatility. It works brilliantly at high vengeance as a minor raid cooldown when stacked for rain of blades, force and verve, elegon burn, feng AoE, gara'jal and of course maddening shout. Holy Prism slots in well for these as well perhaps with more usage due to it's shorter cd, meaning you don't need to hold off using it.

The biggest problem with this argument is that on fights that use AoE group up mechanics, the boss/adds usually aren't in range of the raid so you can't make use of Holy Prism properly, compared to Light's Hammer just being great to drop down on a shaman's healing rain and watch the green. Also the fact that Holy Prism isn't a smart heal so in those cases it will just heal any pets that are attacking the boss, which is pretty useless when an AoE heal could save 10's of thousands of mana.
Thing is in 25 man Holy Prism would get better but in those cases Light's Hammer gets insanely strong :/

[Deleted]

My main problem with HP is the CD.

If it was buffed 250% but cd went to 1 minute, it would be a decent talent. However the CD forces it to use 3x more GCDs than the other choices, which to me is not worth it, those 2 GCDs could have been used on something else.

As others have said aswell. HP is not a smart heal. Fix this and it would also gain value.

For me range threat is not yet an issue on any fight. Only time I run out to reset stacks on Elegon I either have an add on me or it is burn phase. And during burn phase when restting stacks I use LaoTL.

Judge - Sacred Shield - AS - Judge and back on boss, do not lose any up time at all.
Could also squeze in lights hammer there.

Also lights hammer is so insanely strong on burn phase so even if I lost 2 GCDs I would still not take it, that heal is a raid saver.

I am sure HP is great for as you said transmog runs and soloing though.

As you said it can be a good heal for yourself as a tank, but personally, in my raid group tank healing is never an issue, so I do not really need. I much rather heal the raid for 900k hp than myself 80k hp. Really helps the healers out an is a raid saver on AoE bosses.

That is just my 5 cents, I am sure I also forgot something. But for me, the benefits from HP is non existant, whilst both other talents are great. Maybe if it also was on 60 sec cd, but it is not.

[Slickwhits]

Am i correct in thinking the haste build is good for high uptime of shield of the righteous and holy power generation? What makes the mastery build so good? Is it the increased block chance and bigger word of glory values? I'm assuming you cannot maintain a high up up time of shield of the righteous buff (compared to haste build)?

[Deleted]

Am i correct in thinking the haste build is good for high uptime of shield of the righteous and holy power generation? What makes the mastery build so good? Is it the increased block chance and bigger word of glory values? I'm assuming you cannot maintain a high up up time of shield of the righteous buff (compared to haste build)?

More or less:

Haste spec:

Pros:
More damage dealt
Faster holy power regeneration
Higher uptime on SOTR buff
More self/raid healing
Less damage taken

Cons:
Lower damage reduced buff.


Mastery spec:

Pros:
More block
Bigger Word of Glory
Bigger damage reduction.

Cons:
Less uptime on SOTR buff.

[Xs]

Mastery spec:

Pros:
More block
Bigger Word of Glory
Bigger damage reduction.

Cons:
Less uptime on SOTR buff.

There's also the pro that it doesn't require quite as much input to the rotation to get its worth out, a valuable thing to consider on progress if you're trying to learn a fight and the rotation isn't 100% muscle memory yet

[MerinPally]

Am i correct in thinking the haste build is good for high uptime of shield of the righteous and holy power generation? What makes the mastery build so good? Is it the increased block chance and bigger word of glory values? I'm assuming you cannot maintain a high up up time of shield of the righteous buff (compared to haste build)?

Both the above kinda told half the story.

The Haste build gets a high uptime of a lower % reduction SHOTR. It allows more damage and more passive healing through SoI and then Glyph of Battle Healer, but the con is that if you cannot maintain a perfect rotation for whatever reason, the amount of damage taken in the time frame where you cannot maintain the buff to the proper uptime, is potentially huge.

The Mastery build takes slightly less damage overall, but you put out normal dps and passive healing figures as opposed to elevated ones. When you have the SHOTR buff up you take a lot less damage but the uptime is lower. The con is that which is above, the pro is that if you cannot maintain a perfect rotation then you obviously take a bit more damage than otherwise but nowhere near to the extent that happens for the haste build due to passive blocks. Also, if you get into an "Oh shit" situation, you will get a bigger WoG which can save your life.


Mastery > Haste - for total damage reduction.
Mastery > Haste - for if you cannot maintain a 95%< perfect rotation (I pulled that number out my ass but it's reasonable)

Haste > Mastery - for doing more dps
Haste > Mastery - for more passive healing


Those are the choices you have to make. I think it's pretty obvious which is best but it appears not because I still get berated for backing the Mastery build, despite saying that both builds have their pros and cons... Either way, my opinion is completely invalid, we must go by the NUMBERS and they say that the builds are equal in damage smoothing, which is what we want most of all, then any other pros/cons are up to the person as to which ones they want.

Also, Helai got it slightly wrong - the mastery build takes less total damage build than the haste. Not the other way round. The rest is correct though but then Faster Holy Power Generation is less of a pro and more of a requirement because without such high (albeit low % reduction) SHOTR uptime, the build would be completely void.

[Rivin]

As far as using it to pick up mobs, I'm unsure as to Holy Prism, but I know for a fact that Light's Hammer generates no threat. I can only assume it's across the board.

As far as I'm aware, both Holy Prism and Execution Sentence generate threat. The only reason Light's Hammer doesn't is because it's not actually you doing it--the spell summons a totem that generates the damage/healing effects, so all of the threat goes to the totem.

[Deleted]

I kinda get the impression that people forget (or else quickly rush past) that mastery also increases our chance to block - it seems to get skipped out a lot in people's HASTE VS MASTERY debate and people seem to focus much more on the high uptime vs bigger ShotR shield elements. Passive block is no bad thing. Just my impression of how peeps deem it's usefulness.

Keep it real.

Word.

---------- Post added 2012-11-05 at 05:22 PM ----------

As far as I'm aware, both Holy Prism and Execution Sentence generate threat. The only reason Light's Hammer doesn't is because it's not actually you doing it--the spell summons a totem that generates the damage/healing effects, so all of the threat goes to the totem.

This sounds about right. However as everyone and his monkey knows, threat is a non issue, and as such a bit of a moo point /cow.

[Elathi]

threat is a non issue

'Cept with those overzealous arms warriors on trash. :P

[RexalLB]

Still backing the mastery build over the haste build at the moment.

(Rexal - Lightbringer EU)

I find that it is not worth going haste for me, even though my guild needs the damage (Elegon, I'm looking @ you...) I find myself unable to maintain a perfect rotation AND assist in leading the raid, as well as focusing on other general things that tanks have to do such as avoiding boss abilities and generating threat (Not that that is much of an issue).

And because I am often assisting in leading raids, I don't have my eyes glued to my rotation and I easily make mistakes (several times I've found myself using my HP generating abilities at 5 HP for e.g, or not using SotR for an extended period of time, losing SS and not rebuffing it for awhile).

My point being that, even if the numbers say something is better than another thing, unless there is a huge difference then go for what suits YOUR playstyle and YOUR needs more than what the theorycrafters say is "better".

My example being that I am a social raider, not a hardcore raider, my guild is very middle of the pack (Killed 8/8 Hc DS 5 weeks before MoP finished for e.g, in the weeks leading up to MoP we managed to get another 12 people the title and get most of the same people the Meta too for 22 saviour of azeroths and riders of Twilight Harbingers ), We do not intent to be hardcore and don't expect players to know the ins and outs of their class like how to spell their name, therefore while I do try to do my best, I know I can not perform the haste build properly and will hold my guild back if I was to go that route.

To all the players who think Haste is the be-all end-all of specs, be mindful of other peoples playstyles and the likes, to the others who are confused over which is better. Think about what you want to achieve, what your guild is capable of, what content you are doing and what suits yourself the most, at the moment there is no 100% clear winner between Haste and Mastery, If you are confident that you can pull of the haste build then go ahead, if you are hesistant/know you aren't that awesome/prot tanking is your off spec. then stick with Mastery for now.

[Deleted]

One thing that is often overlooked however is that mastery also requires you to land your rotation very well.
Whilst I agree haste requires even more on the rotation part, most people make is sound like you hit 1 spell wrong in haste build your dead and if you just faceroll with mastery build your fine. The real truth is that they are very close in terms on screw ups, whilst haste is a bit less forgiving, do not believe that mastery is forgiving either.

If you are not that tight with your rotation, the best route is probably stamina with a nice mix of doge/parry/mastery
Hit and exp lose alot of value if you dont click the buttons correct.

Stamina, dodge and parry is the only stats that are completely independant of your rotation.

[Xs]

Mastery should still be better than an avoidance route even if you go afk, you're gaining amounts of damage smoothing from passive block far beyond the small amounts of parry/dodge you'll get, thats why people make it out the way they do

[Deleted]

Mastery should still be better than an avoidance route even if you go afk, you're gaining amounts of damage smoothing from passive block far beyond the small amounts of parry/dodge you'll get, thats why people make it out the way they do

Yup, while that is true. I still believe stamina > mastery if you cannot maintain a rotation. And definately dodge/parry > hit/exp
ofc, given your rotation is messed up

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Yup, while that is true. I still believe stamina > mastery if you cannot maintain a rotation. And definately dodge/parry > hit/exp
ofc, given your rotation is messed up

If your rotation is messed up, surely it would be better to learn to not mess it up than use a sub-optimal setup as a band-aid?