USA falling apart?

[SirRobin]

Yeah man, let's kick out a big part of the economy. GREAT IDEA TEXAS IS ONLY THE 15TH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.

Yeah... and the United States is THE largest economy in the world. As in, we have the economic width and depth to weather losing Texas. Texas no longer being part of THE largest economy in the world may not be as survivable for them, however.

[Gothicshark]

Yeah man, let's kick out a big part of the economy. GREAT IDEA TEXAS IS ONLY THE 15TH LARGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD.

Rain I think you missed the sarcasm in that post. However lets look at why Texas is the 15 largest Economy.

1. Gulf cost Oil, Which is owned by the United States and the US Navy protects that Oil.
2. Agriculture, mostly cotton and Cattle.
3. Aeronautics, the US government built up 2 main aerospace locations one in Huston and the other in Los Angeles.
4. Military, the US Army and Ft Hood.
5. Deference contracting number 2 spot for military contractors.
6. Computer Technology, Governor Perry gave huge tax brakes to attract technology to move in.

What happens if Texas leaves (which it can't) they loose all US government contracts, and the access to US oil in the Gulf, that alone will cut the Economy in half in Texas, Californian businesses would boom gaining these contracts, and Louisiana would get the rights to Gulf cost oil. Backed by the US Navy. ie Texas couldn't do sh** about that. This would leave Cotton and Cattle as the primary sources of the Texas economy, Granted I think the US would impose large tariffs on these goods, since many other states in the Union have Cattle and Cotton. Oh and the tech industry in Austin would move back to California.

[Merendel]

Thoughts? Secession is illegal, and failed in 1860. This is crap brought to you by malcontent whiners and nothing more.

And the ironic thing is when it failed in 1860's it was kicked off by this same situation but for the other party. The first 8 slave states declared secession in response to Lincoln (a republican) being elected on a platform of preventing the spread of slavery(but not at that time abolishing it in states where it was legal) While the issue in contention has changed (entitlements and out of control spending today instead of slavery of 1860) the events of today mirror the events back then to an alarming degree.

I also wouldnt be so sure on the illegal part. The original federation of states that was the precursor to the modern united states had provisions for a state withdrawing as I recall. I can not say for sure if that carried over into the constitution without research but I'd still call it a legal grey area. While historical precedent shows that Lincoln and the federal government of that time declared the succession as an illegal rebellion I cant say one way or another if that was truly the law or it was just the victor making the rules, that and the south attacked first so not much choice at that point.

While that petition is only a first step and little more than a bunch of people stating in no uncertain terms that they are not happy with this administration and want out its nowhere near pulling out of the union yet. They would need a full blown vote on the issue to even attempt to move forward with this not just a petition signed by a bunch of angry people. Texas is not the only state where that kind of petition is going around however. Still I'm worried, I wondered on election night when the race was called what was going to happen to the country. Would the economy collapse under the weight of the national debt? (our current spending is unsustainable even with a 100% tax on the rich) Or would things get so bad some stats would try to secede and spark another civil war? Both options are equiliy grim and I cant burry my head in the sand and think happy thoughts that everything will be fine and dandy without major change. Change that both partys are so diametrically opposed on how to go about it that nothing will ever happen till the whole house of cards collapses.

[Gothicshark]

I also wouldnt be so sure on the illegal part.

Texas v. White 1869, it was a law suit which caused the supreme court to deiced if secession was legal or illegal. The confederate government sold off U.S. treasury bonds that the US gave Texas in 1850, and after the war the new Texas government wanted those bonds back. The supreme court ruled that legally the Bonds could not be sold off by the confederates and that they still belonged to Texas.

these are the Judges words on this:

"The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?

When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States."

[Felya]

And the ironic thing is when it failed in 1860's it was kicked off by this same situation but for the other party. The first 8 slave states declared secession in response to Lincoln (a republican) being elected on a platform of preventing the spread of slavery(but not at that time abolishing it in states where it was legal) While the issue in contention has changed (entitlements and out of control spending today instead of slavery of 1860) the events of today mirror the events back then to an alarming degree.

The two economies, north and south, were segnificantly different, where south would see a major hit if slavery went away. It has nothing in common, the issues changed drastically and no events today mirror it.

[obdigore]

The two economies, north and south, were segnificantly different, where south would see a major hit if slavery went away. It has nothing in common, the issues changed drastically and no events today mirror it.

There might have been a little bit to do with the south whining because the north had more money and more votes than they did, so the north would have been able to pass whatever legislation they wanted without the south being able to block it. Slavery, although generally considered 'the' issue, was just the tipping point.

[Felya]

While that petition is only a first step and little more than a bunch of people stating in no uncertain terms that they are not happy with this administration and want out its nowhere near pulling out of the union yet.

The terms are certain, it's takes 25k signatures to respond. Those are the certain terms of this entire thing. There is also a petition to deport everyone who singed the secede petition, which I guess is the first step to make those who don't want to be part of America to leave it. Replace them all with immigrants who risk their lives to be part if the country.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 07:42 AM ----------

There might have been a little bit to do with the south whining because the north had more money and more votes than they did, so the north would have been able to pass whatever legislation they wanted without the south being able to block it. Slavery, although generally considered 'the' issue, was just the tipping point.

This is more of what happened under Bush than civil war. The uniques of the argument during civil war, was not the lack of power of for one side over the other. There is nothing that either party can implement right now, that would cripple one side in favor of the other.

[obdigore]

This is more of what happened under Bush than civil war. The uniques of the argument during civil war, was not the lack of power of for one side over the other. There is nothing that either party can implement right now, that would cripple one side in favor of the other.

The Civil War was about economic and political power, and frightened men who were afraid of becoming unimportant. Slavery (of new states), although at the center of the matter, was not the real issue, but what was happening on that issue illuminated that the south had neither the money nor the people to do anything but allow the north to do whatever they wanted.

[Felya]

This is so stupid, now Washington has a petition there as well. The same Washington that just nearly swept blue and passed both gay marriage and legalized pot. Is there one for NJ, NY and California yet? Anyone put in a petition to give cats citizenship rights? In fact, change citizenship criteria to be entirely dependant on cuteness. Now that's change we can believe in!

[Arganis]

So OP's idiotic topic caused a 41 page thread.... I guess the US really is falling apart.

[Shukuku]

*Facepalms* I feel ashamed to say I live in one of those states, why does this have to happen, they need to just get over it. I hope this just blows over and fails.

[obdigore]

This is so stupid, now Washington has a petition there as well. The same Washington that just nearly swept blue and passed both gay marriage and legalized pot. Is there one for NJ, NY and California yet? Anyone put in a petition to give cats citizenship rights? In fact, change citizenship criteria to be entirely dependant on cuteness. Now that's change we can believe in!

Yes there is one from NY. It was started by a North Dakota resident.

This whole thing is a giant joke.

[Felya]

The Civil War was about economic and political power, and frightened men who were afraid of becoming unimportant. Slavery (of new states), although at the center of the matter, was not the real issue, but what was happening on that issue illuminated that the south had neither the money nor the people to do anything but allow the north to do whatever they wanted.

How is that similar to right now? Democrats only have complete control in one branch of federal government. Congress is split between democrats in the senate and republicans running the house. Supreme court has a 5-4 conservative majority.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 07:59 AM ----------

*Facepalms* I feel ashamed to say I live in one of those states, why does this have to happen, they need to just get over it. I hope this just blows over and fails.

This has nothing to do with those states, but just individuals who looked at their election stocking and found nothing but coal.

[obdigore]

How is that similar to right now? Democrats only have complete control in one branch of federal government. Congress is split between democrats in the senate and republicans running the house. Supreme court has a 5-4 conservative majority.

I never said it was similar. I was just correcting your statement about what caused the civil war. I get tired of the whole 'Slavery was the cause!'.

[MalooTakant]

Do you really think Texas has the military power to shed the yolk of the US government?

Having a balanced budget and large economy can only do so much for the act of secession.

[obdigore]

Do you really think Texas has the military power to shed the yolk of the US government?

Having a balanced budget and large economy can only do so much for the act of secession.

They only had a balanced budget because of the Federal Stimulus package.

[Arganis]

The definition of stupidity on Wikipedia should have a link to this thread.

Infracted. We know you don't like the thread...post elsewhere next time.

[Felya]

I never said it was similar. I was just correcting your statement about what caused the civil war. I get tired of the whole 'Slavery was the cause!'.

That's not what I am saying. I'm saying the economic advantage the south had due to slavory, made it's abolition an economic problem. I'm not talking about slavery as a civil rights issue, but the crux of the economic. That what makes the civil war unique, there is nothing the federal government can do, that would have such an economic hit for one side of the country versus the gains got by the other. There is nothing in the power of the federal government, that would swing economies in such a way.

[obdigore]

The definition of stupidity on Wikipedia should have a link to this thread.

If your entire contribution to the thread is whining about how stupid it is, you are perfectly capable of not posting in it. You know that right? It is a MMO-Champ feature. You aren't required to post in every thread!

[Felya]

Having a balanced budget and large economy can only do so much for the act of secession.

Makes me wonder how they would deal with immigration. With so much of their agrucoltural economy dependant on illigal immigrants, will they have public transportation from Mexico?