Content Gates Vs Gear Gates

[Sylvanie]

A note about infusions: I actually like this mechanics, as it creates an opportunity for content-specific progression without increasing the power curve overall. Its really neat. You can have your infusions which let you do these ultra-hard dungeons, but you will still get your ass kicked in WvWvW just as anybody else despite your fancy gear. Now if they didn't have increased attributes, I'd be happy.

It's actually the part that I'm worried about the most. If there are different types of infusions, that means different types of gear sets, which is about the most annoying type of gear grind that you can get (if only because of bag space limitations).

[everydaygamer]

Yes it will be. But it will be much emptier than before this update, because if you bothered to read their official forums you'd see that there was 50+pages full of rage barely couple hours after they posted patch notes. I'm scared to think what's going on there now. Unless they started to remove all negative posts, like they tend to do often.

please its just a small vocal minority making themselves look bigger with a large forum topic.

[Osprey39]

please its just a small vocal minority making themselves look bigger with a large forum topic.

Yeah, right. Keep telling yourself that. The thread is now 129 pages long (they merged a couple of threads together) and almost nobody responding in it is in favor of this. Those of you that are in favor of it may find yourselves with very few people to play with in a short time. This isn't just a developer going back on their word. It's a developer turning their back on one of their core design philosophies and then trying to spin the players into thinking they aren't doing what they are doing.

"Here's what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can't realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don't make grindy games -- we leave the grind to other MMOs."
-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Fun impacts loot collection. The rarest items in the game are not more powerful than other items, so you don’t need them to be the best. The rarest items have unique looks to help your character feel that sense of accomplishment, but it’s not required to play the game. We don’t need to make mandatory gear treadmills, we make all of it optional, so those who find it fun to chase this prestigious gear can do so, but those who don’t are just as powerful and get to have fun too.”
– Colin Johanson

They may not realize it but this decision is destroying a whole lot of goodwill they had with their core fans in order to try to appeal to the people that need a skinner box. The sad part is that the loot whores will have all of this stuff within a couple of weeks and they will be right back to bitching about having nothing to do but the core Guild Wars fans will be in the middle of a mass exodus I'm afraid. Shame, this game was pretty fun while it lasted.

[mafao]

It's actually the part that I'm worried about the most. If there are different types of infusions, that means different types of gear sets, which is about the most annoying type of gear grind that you can get (if only because of bag space limitations).

I expect infusions to be pluggable. E.g. you don't need a new set of gear, just plug a content-appropriate infusion in there. To this end, they should be also removable without loss.

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 02:49 PM ----------

Not true. Your confusing Optional Gear with Manditory Gear. GW2 has alot of optional gear sets. Gear treadmills have 1 manditory gear set. The difference is how much content is accessible without obtaining certain gear. In a gear treadmill game you may not be able to complete certain dungeons or normal raids because your gear is sub par. GW2 on the other hand doesnt limit you content wise based on your gear. Once you are level 80 you can complete any activity you want. This isnt true of a gear treadmill game.

Now you are playing semantics. You have to think about player psychology. As long as gear is cosmetic (or has like 0.5% better stats), the difference is just the coolness factor. But if the difference becomes substantial, there will be a divide in the community and people will expect you to have the best gear if you want to join their group/guild etc. You will have difficulties finding groups even for story mode dungeons without ascended gear. I know, this is ridiculous, but its how these things usually turn out.

[Berethos08]

Well, Zeek, but that sounds exactly like gear threadmil, doesn't it? Exactly that kind of thing GW2 was supposed not to have.

It only becomes a treadmill when it becomes a constantly resetting chase that never ends. If the eventual Legendary level of armor becomes the highest implemented tier (the wording in Linsey Murdock's blog post doesn't immediately suggest they plan on adding new multiple levels of the same Ascended gear, rather that "new levels" suggests the additional armor pieces and different kinds of infusions that will come later), then it's a path, which has an end.

But if the difference becomes substantial, there will be a divide in the community and people will expect you to have the best gear if you want to join their group/guild etc. You will have difficulties finding groups even for story mode dungeons without ascended gear. I know, this is ridiculous, but its how these things usually turn out.

I've played a lot of different MMOs, and I've not found this to be a given truth, and only seems to pop up in games that have the competitive raiding approach to end-game. You'll have some people and some guilds that insist on such ridiculous standards, but the only time I've ever seen that approach being the new "normal" was at the height of Gearscore in Wrath of the Lich King...and even then you could still find groups and guilds that were far more reasonable in their approach.

Given that there's already a difference in gear levels available at 80, if what you suggest would were true then we would already be seeing "Recruiting for the guild Stands in a Fire, Exotic gear only" or "Running CoE, Exotic gear only pls" in trade.

[Vulgrym]

I enjoy GW2 for the WvW and think it offers a nice alternative in the MMO space, so don't take this as an attack:

World Of Warcraft has Content gates. In order to do certain things you need to first do X,Y, or Z. In MoP this takes shape in the form of dailies. In order to get access to the gear you need to do raids you are strongly encouraged to do dailies. Now you dont have to do these dailies and can choose to get a full heroic dungeon set and try to do raid content but youll find yourself at a severe disadvantage and you will more than likely not be able to see all the content raiding has to offer. <<<< That is a Content Gate. You must have at least a few higher ilvl pieces if you wish to see raid content.

That is a gross misrepresentation. There was insufficient time to unlock all of "necessary" raid gear before blowing through heroic raids. By the end of the first tier, our raiders had *maybe* a belt and a ring. The very best guilds (i.e. Method) completed the tier before they had much of a chance to farm 489 gear in raids, forget rep gear!

Yes, dailies are boring. I found them like bouncing between DEs over and over to farm karma. But this myth that has been built around how necessary they are is silly.

Carry on (I'll be back to check out the new stuff soon, hence my interest in this thread).

[Sylvanie]

The sad part is that the loot whores will have all of this stuff within a couple of weeks and they will be right back to bitching about having nothing to do but the core Guild Wars fans will be in the middle of a mass exodus I'm afraid.

I don't think there'll be a mass exodus, at least not in the short term. The game has too many good aspects and the immediate changes (i.e. only three slots that can be turned into ascended gear) are too little to matter in comparison.

What is more worrying is the long term effect; either the gear is so easily obtainable that we'll be back to square one a week after it's released (unlikely, given what we know), or eventually players do get frustrated by a long grind. I don't think that will result in a mass exodus, but I expect that they'll lose some players who will be unhappy with that. Conversely, I can't see them gaining a lot of new players through ascended gear (or gem sales, for that matter; players who are good at grinding gear are generally also good at making gold and can buy gems with gold).

Overall, I can think of several ways of introducing progression elements in the game that would not have the effect of frustrating part of their playerbase, and I'm pretty sure ArenaNet is better at game design than I am, so I'm surprised that they picked this -- and apparently did not realize the effect it would have.

[Glitterfury]

There are many styles of gear in the game now, white, blue, green, yellow, orange.
Nobody asks me exotic gear to run dungeons or play WvW or kill dragons.

New gear ascended will not use runes that have powerful bonus.

Sorry if this inappropriate to make positive comment, this forum seems very hard to the game.

[Zeek Daniels]

Now you are playing semantics. You have to think about player psychology. As long as gear is cosmetic (or has like 0.5% better stats), the difference is just the coolness factor. But if the difference becomes substantial, there will be a divide in the community and people will expect you to have the best gear if you want to join their group/guild etc. You will have difficulties finding groups even for story mode dungeons without ascended gear. I know, this is ridiculous, but its how these things usually turn out.

Im sorry but i have never encountered a explorable dungeon group that kicked me because i was wearing blues or greens and not full exotics. Do you know the diffference between a Blue and an exotic? Do you know the difference between a Exotic and an Ascended? Time to take a look.

Opal Mithril Ring (Green)
+39 Power
+39 Precision
+12 Power
+12 Precision
+3% magic find

Opal Orihalcum Ring
+48 Power
+48 Precision
+3% magic find
+15 Power
+15 Precision
+4% Magic find

Yakkingtons Ring
+50 Power
+50 Precision
+10% Magic Find
+18 Precision
+18 Power

Now lets look at the difference between Greens and Exotics. This green right is -12 in both Power and Presicion and -4% in MF. Now look at Exotics and Ascended. Exotics are -5 in both Power and Presicion and -3% in MF.

Now hold on a second. Your saying that players are going to all of a sudden want Ascended gear toons to do dungeon runs (outside of high difficulty FotM which do require ascended gear) just because of a slight increase? There is a bigger gap between Greens and exotics than Ascended and exotics and i have never seen "LFM COF explore path 1 & 2 exotic geared only" Hell i did explorables in blues and never had issues but omg dont let Anet release a slightly higher item set else all of a sudden your going to see "LFM TA explore Ascended geared only"

So seeing as how there is a bigger gap between Greens and exotics than acscended and exotics and seeing as dungeons and events can be completed in full blue gear how is it now that the sky is falling? The gap was their b4 and was even larger. Exotics are easy to obtain and still compare better than exotics to greens did previously. There is no gear treadmill its all in your head. Ty very much.

[Osprey39]

Im sorry but i have never encountered a explorable dungeon group that kicked me because i was wearing blues or greens and not full exotics. Do you know the diffference between a Blue and an exotic? Do you know the difference between a Exotic and an Ascended? Time to take a look.

Opal Mithril Ring (Green)
+39 Power
+39 Precision
+12 Power
+12 Precision
+3% magic find

Opal Orihalcum Ring
+48 Power
+48 Precision
+3% magic find
+15 Power
+15 Precision
+4% Magic find

Yakkingtons Ring
+50 Power
+50 Precision
+10% Magic Find
+18 Precision
+18 Power

Now lets look at the difference between Greens and Exotics. This green right is -12 in both Power and Presicion and -4% in MF. Now look at Exotics and Ascended. Exotics are -5 in both Power and Presicion and -3% in MF.

Now hold on a second. Your saying that players are going to all of a sudden want Ascended gear toons to do dungeon runs (outside of high difficulty FotM which do require ascended gear) just because of a slight increase? There is a bigger gap between Greens and exotics than Ascended and exotics and i have never seen "LFM COF explore path 1 & 2 exotic geared only" Hell i did explorables in blues and never had issues but omg dont let Anet release a slightly higher item set else all of a sudden your going to see "LFM TA explore Ascended geared only"

So seeing as how there is a bigger gap between Greens and exotics than acscended and exotics and seeing as dungeons and events can be completed in full blue gear how is it now that the sky is falling? The gap was their b4 and was even larger. Exotics are easy to obtain and still compare better than exotics to greens did previously. There is no gear treadmill its all in your head. Ty very much.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You're comparing 1 item and saying it isn't that much difference but you are conveniently ignoring that you have multiple item slots, all of which will eventually be filled with this stuff. By the way that 1 item you are comparing is 8% better on characters stats and 30% better on the magic find percentage.

I also find it hard to believe you people have never seen people looking to fill dungeon groups but insisting people have full exotics to join. It was happening like crazy on Blackgate during the Mad King event and it happens on a daily basis to a lesser extent. But again, I don't care much about having these things in the PvE game. I care a lot about it being in the WvW game.

You should do yourself a favor and go check out the thread on the official forums about this. I'd say reaction is mixed here but that's to be expected as this is a WoW site with WoW fans who may happen to be playing GW2. Go read what's going on in the official thread. People are not pleased about this and they shouldn't be. They are turning their back on one of their core design philosophies to appeal to a crowd that is never satisified. Huge mistake.

[mafao]

...

Now hold on a second. Your saying that players are going to all of a sudden want Ascended gear toons to do dungeon runs (outside of high difficulty FotM which do require ascended gear) just because of a slight increase? There is a bigger gap between Greens and exotics than Ascended and exotics and i have never seen "LFM COF explore path 1 & 2 exotic geared only" Hell i did explorables in blues and never had issues but omg dont let Anet release a slightly higher item set else all of a sudden your going to see "LFM TA explore Ascended geared only"

So seeing as how there is a bigger gap between Greens and exotics than acscended and exotics and seeing as dungeons and events can be completed in full blue gear how is it now that the sky is falling? The gap was their b4 and was even larger. Exotics are easy to obtain and still compare better than exotics to greens did previously. There is no gear treadmill its all in your head. Ty very much.

Zeek, the issue I am talking about is not susceptible to logics and reason. I know that you are right, and I know that its doesn't make that much difference in running explorables with green vs exotic gear. Basically, every sane person will agree with you. But we are not talking about a single sane person here, we are talking about player community which is a big blob where the mass is often driven by the example of a small prominent, or just simply vocal, minority even if that example is wrong or doesn't make sense in the first place. If some guy of the famous guild UBERPVERZORS writes 'ascended gear improved my survival rate by 2%', then most of the player community will think that this gear will make them better (which is pretty much BS). The nice thing about GW2 is that it accounts for this kind of mob psychology, gently pushing people towards cooperation adn removing common stimuli (hello DPS meters!) which quickly develop to discriminatory factors.

And yes, I see plenty of 'LFM blabla must full exotics' and during the Halloween event (Mad King dungeon) a group rejected my Thief because he was ... wait for it.. 'wtf, you are only level 22'. This is the sad reality of online gaming, and education does only so much. The best way to prevent this kind of thing is to remove the gear discrepancy altogether, which GW2 was supposed to do in the first place.

[Zeek Daniels]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You're comparing 1 item and saying it isn't that much difference but you are conveniently ignoring that you have multiple item slots, all of which will eventually be filled with this stuff. By the way that 1 item you are comparing is 8% better on characters stats and 30% better on the magic find percentage.

Did you even read what i said? Tell me what the % difference is between a full green set and a full exotic set that use the same stats. And then tell me what dungeon you cant run with that full green set that you can run with that full exotic set. And then tell me how that difference which is already present is ok but the new difference which is smaller is not.

Im sorry im not very good at math. Can you show me how you got the 8% better stats and 30% better MF, and then do those same calculations for the current difference between greens and exotics.

-edit-
nevermind i got it. So yakkingtons ring is a 8% increase in stats over the exotic version but as the game is right now the exotic version is a 23% increase in stats over the green. So again how is one ok but the other blasphemy?

And yes, I see plenty of 'LFM blabla must full exotics' and during the Halloween event (Mad King dungeon) a group rejected my Thief because he was ... wait for it.. 'wtf, you are only level 22'. This is the sad reality of online gaming, and education does only so much. The best way to prevent this kind of thing is to remove the gear discrepancy altogether, which GW2 was supposed to do in the first place.

Yea they were looking for speed runs. And it was more "80 only" than "full exotic" infact i never saw a single person asking for full exotic. Saw a bunch of 80 only tho. Anet has nerfed rewards because of speed runs, and players no longer exclude ppl based on gear. Ppl still get excluded based on level tho.

You should do yourself a favor and go check out the thread on the official forums about this. I'd say reaction is mixed here but that's to be expected as this is a WoW site with WoW fans who may happen to be playing GW2. Go read what's going on in the official thread. People are not pleased about this and they shouldn't be. They are turning their back on one of their core design philosophies to appeal to a crowd that is never satisified. Huge mistake.

Really? Because to me it seems they are adding another PvE option for those that want it. Just like Spvp tournaments are not manditory and are optional for those that want it. This new PvE mode is there for those that want it. The gear thats being used for it only lets you gain power in the dungeon. It only lets you grow stronger in the dungeon. Will players be looking for "ascended geared" players in future patches for content outside this dungeon? Prolly. i mean look at the Mad king event. Players were looking for 80's. I didnt see anyone looking for exotic only players but hey maybe my server when i was online had less hardcore farmers than yours. The rest of the content releases while some will expand on this new PvE mode, others will expand on whats already present, aka New zones (Lost shores) new jumping puzzles, new mini-dungeons new events and hopefully new storymode dungeons and exploreables.

[Bugg]

i have never encountered a explorable dungeon group that kicked me because i was wearing blues or greens and not full exotics.

But I did. If some thing did not happen to you, it does not make it impossible, does it?

I also got kicked out of a guild because I was not doing enough damage to the nests that spawned scorpions in CoF, me being a condition necro at that time.

[Durzlla]

But I did. If some thing did not happen to you, it does not make it impossible, does it?

I also got kicked out of a guild because I was not doing enough damage to the nests that spawned scorpions in CoF, me being a condition necro at that time.

Sounds like that guild was stupid anyway lol, you don't need them!!

I've got yelled at for bringing spirits and being a ranger about halfway through an explo, granted it was the one PUG out of a group of guildies so his attempts to kick were in vein, I rubbed in my lack of exotics and dying in his face the whole way though =P

People will be stupid, just ignore them, a vast majority of the player base isn't as stupid as those rare encounters...

---------- Post added 2012-11-14 at 10:10 AM ----------

So by that logic, why not add raids? And a raid tier progression? And a fully fleshed out gear tiering system? That's just adding more PvE options for those that want them, and they won't be mandatory, right? Because you'll still be able to do Arah in greens?

How many times do we have to tell you, this gear isn't blocking content, raid progression WILL, god you may as well be Helenkeller with how little you seem to be retaining from this!

[Zeek Daniels]

But I did. If some thing did not happen to you, it does not make it impossible, does it?

I also got kicked out of a guild because I was not doing enough damage to the nests that spawned scorpions in CoF, me being a condition necro at that time.

Sounds like a class issue to me and a design flaw with burrows that Anet needs to fix. Nothing to do with your gear. Also its a problem when everyone is gating access to pugs, Not when a few ppl are doing it. If 1 out of every 100 CoF runs is looking for full exotics then i say wait for the other 99. If your going into LA and seeing nothing but "Full exotic only" Then we have a problem. The reason we dont see that is because Anet is doing a good job of limiting rewards for speed running and designing dungeons that have to do with skill/build and not stats.

So by that logic, why not add raids? And a raid tier progression? And a fully fleshed out gear tiering system? That's just adding more PvE options for those that want them, and they won't be mandatory, right? Because you'll still be able to do Arah in greens?

I guess that's what's so funny to me about all this. If I - or someone else - on this board had suggested Ascendant gear two weeks ago, we would have been overwhelmed with "This isn't the game for you." and "Go back to WoW." and "GW2 doesn't need carrots!"

But now that it's coming, people are defending ArenaNet with all kinds of rationalizations about how, "Well, maybe it'll just be this one time." and "Well, it's not a big increase in power." and "Well, agony is just in this one place for now..."

Your right they could add raids. But why do you need raid tier progression with raids? Just add raid armor sets. Do you want a fully fleshed out gear tiering system? Im sry but raids are not what cause tiers of gear.

If you told me you think Anet should add another set of gear that was restricted to helping players that wanted to do a specific dungeon that gets infinitely harder and this gear helps you with that infinitely hard dungeon that btw has no defined ending. And that the gear doesnt in anyway benefit you in WvW or against other players no matter how strong it got and only worked its magic inside this one dungeon? And that the dungeon could be done without the gear provided you didnt want to advance in difficulty?

To that i would say go for it.

If you had instead said i want to add a new set of gear that keeps getting stronger that can be used against other players to their disadvantage that also was required for a specific dungeon to even have a shot at attempting the content. and that players without the gear wouldnt even be able to clear the first trash pack let alone a boss without the gear then i would say "hell no, Content should not be limited or gated by gear, i dont want to have to get on the "gear treadmill" just to see any content you are releasing"

As it stands right now that content is still playable without the gear. So im ok with it, and everyone else should be too.

[Zeek Daniels]

Well Bov when the patch comes and you see whats really going on in that dungeon youll wonder why you put up such a fight against it in the first place.

[Cyclone Jack]

Difficulty is different. Your playing the same map as everyone one else just with harder hitting mobs. If these mobs keep hitting harder then your going to hit a gear wall. What do you propose we do then Fencers. I would like you to explain how this scaling dungeon would work under the current gear system. How far would ppl get in difficulty b4 they had to stop?

I would think that the challenge of an infinite dungeon would be to see how far you could get. If the content scales up slowly, then people WILL eventually hit a wall, but the challenge is to overcome that wall through skill. This is what it is to be Guild Wars.

The sad thing is, even after they add Ascended armor and Infusions, people will still hit a wall. So what purpose does it really serve? They break their design manifesto to please people that want some form of gear progression. Though I'm sure the added income form Transmutation Stones is a nice benefit as well.

Now this is both a shift in series design and stated intention. Gear treadmill is not the concern, those worried about that are idiots frankly. The renouncement of 'skill over gear' is hypocritical and totally 180 degrees from the series up to this point.

What limited you in Urgoz or Arah was largely your ability to play well. There was no gear based artifice. A linear, post level gear progression in a descriptively bimodal endgame has never once existed in the Guild Wars franchise up till now.

This. There was never any gated content. The initial L20 armor from Droknar's Forge would get you all the way through Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall and EotN, including any and all dungeons.

Yea the current legendary weapons were not higher than exotics. But they were not just going to stop their. They also want to add legendary armors and even more legendary weapons. And they prolly decided that they needed to be stronger than exotics. Thats the gap they are talking about.

If Exotic and Legendary share the same stats, where's the gap that needs to be filled?

[Zeek Daniels]

I would think that the challenge of an infinite dungeon would be to see how far you could get. If the content scales up slowly, then people WILL eventually hit a wall, but the challenge is to overcome that wall through skill. This is what it is to be Guild Wars.
The sad thing is, even after they add Ascended armor and Infusions, people will still hit a wall. So what purpose does it really serve? They break their design manifesto to please people that want some form of gear progression. Though I'm sure the added income form Transmutation Stones is a nice benefit as well.

Thats the point, how can you not see your getting Trolled. This dungeon is a metaphor for Treadmill. If you do it your going to hit a wall get more infusions hit another wall, get more infusions then hit another wall. How you guys dont get it is beyond me. Anet is trolling the "Progression crowd" saying "You want a carrot on a stick you can never reach? You want to infinitely grow your character? Well heres a little sandbox you can play in, and you can run in circles forever and ever. We will expand your sandbox every now and then but for now heres 3 pieces of loot you can treadmill for.

Its really funny what they are doing.

[Durzlla]

Thats the point, how can you not see your getting Trolled. This dungeon is a metaphor for Treadmill. If you do it your going to hit a wall get more infusions hit another wall, get more infusions then hit another wall. How you guys dont get it is beyond me. Anet is trolling the "Progression crowd" saying "You want a carrot on a stick you can never reach? You want to infinitely grow your character? Well heres a little sandbox you can play in, and you can run in circles forever and ever. We will expand your sandbox every now and then but for now heres 3 pieces of loot you can treadmill for.

Its really funny what they are doing.

Yet no one sees it... I have 4 die hard progression friend that are foaming at the mouth for GW2 because of this instance alone, they don't want to play the rest of the game (yet) but my god do they want that never ending dungeon lol, Anet is goin to make some serious bank with that illusionary carrot... You'd think half of the people on this forum though would realize its an illusion though...

I see through your trixy Mesmer magic Anet!!

[Cyclone Jack]

Thats the point, how can you not see your getting Trolled. This dungeon is a metaphor for Treadmill. If you do it your going to hit a wall get more infusions hit another wall, get more infusions then hit another wall. How you guys dont get it is beyond me. Anet is trolling the "Progression crowd" saying "You want a carrot on a stick you can never reach? You want to infinitely grow your character? Well heres a little sandbox you can play in, and you can run in circles forever and ever. We will expand your sandbox every now and then but for now heres 3 pieces of loot you can treadmill for.

Its really funny what they are doing.

I think an endless/infinite dungeon is a great idea, and I have no issue with that.

The question still remains, why add a new tier of gear and break your design manifesto three months in? Why go on and on and make videos about the lack of any form of gear progression, or how they don't need an end game because the entire game is end game, and then turn around three months in and break both of those promises. All they are doing is breaking their trust with their core audience that has been playing since GW1. The same thing happened to BioWare with their Mass Effect 3 promises/videos.

Couldn't they achieve the same goal by adding an endless/infinite dungeon w/o adding a new tier of gear?