Mistweaver Healing!

[Deleted]

It's an option, not a requirement.

Definitely.

[Astraios]

There's a good amount of mis-information in here I've noticed.

First off, fistweaving in raids should only ever mean using jab to generate chi. Not using blackout kick/tigers palm (almost always a healing loss except for a few special cases). This is because jab is flat out more efficient to generate chi than soothing mist, as well as being faster. Doing this is actually MORE efficient than "standard ranged healing". Significantly more so, in fact. It is also significantly higher throughput since you will generate chi on average 4 times faster than soothing mist. Theres not really any room to argue here, it's just how the math works out.
Can you ranged heal and do fine?
Yeah, sure.
Will you be gimping yourself and the raid comparing to your POTENTIAL throughput from "fistweaving" (jabbing for chi)?
Yes, most definitely.
If you aren't in a heroic or progression guild and your only goal is to have fun w/o maximizing your potential, then heal however you want and that's your own choice. But jab is hands down better than soothing mist at the moment, and not using it is essentially handicapping yourself.
My important binds are:
1-RnM Shift 1-Uplift
2- jab shift 2-soothing
3- tigers palm shift 3-surging mist (sometimes I take it off my bar when I use tigers lust)
4- BK shift 4-EnvM
f- TFT shift f- revival
x- chi burst shift x-dampen harm/diffuse magic
`- healthstone shift `-SCK
I have many more keybinds, but those are the ones I generally use for healing. So using a WASD movement binds is still possible to bind everything as a monk.

Finally, fistweaving does not require "insane" amounts of spirit, I run with 7300 and have very strong throughput and longevity. As well, you should NEVER flask/food spirit, because you get 1 spirit:1 int from flask/food whereas you get 1int:2spi from gems. (I gem int and int/crit and int/spi matching sockets, in most cases.) If you want more spirit, gem more. But frankly I "fistweave" and use 7300 spirit without oom'ing. So it's possible. Anyone saying that 9k+ is required, is doing something wrong.

[Deleted]

There's a good amount of mis-information in here I've noticed.
First off, fistweaving in raids should only ever mean using jab to generate chi. Not using blackout kick/tigers palm (almost always a healing loss except for a few special cases).

Using Blackout Kick will stack a buff which makes your auto-attacks heal. Using Tiger Palm will stack a buff to make your attacks ignore up to 30% armour. Having these active will straight up boost your healing done. If you can't afford to use these abilities, maybe you need to stack more spirit.

Finally, fistweaving does not require "insane" amounts of spirit, I run with 7300 and have very strong throughput and longevity. As well, you should NEVER flask/food spirit, because you get 1 spirit:1 int from flask/food whereas you get 1int:2spi from gems. (I gem int and int/crit and int/spi matching sockets, in most cases.) If you want more spirit, gem more. But frankly I "fistweave" and use 7300 spirit without oom'ing. So it's possible. Anyone saying that 9k+ is required, is doing something wrong.

Spirit will greatly increase the amount of mana you can spend in a fight, and with that that, the amount of heals you can cast.

The amount of spirit you need depends on your play style and personal preference, of course. But stacking full intellect as a healer died a while ago.

[Astraios]

Using Blackout Kick will stack a buff which makes your auto-attacks heal. Using Tiger Palm will stack a buff to make your attacks ignore up to 30% armour. Having these active will straight up boost your healing done. If you can't afford to use these abilities, maybe you need to stack more spirit.
Spirit will greatly increase the amount of mana you can spend in a fight, and with that that, the amount of heals you can cast.
The amount of spirit you need depends on your play style and personal preference, of course. But stacking full intellect as a healer died a while ago.

No. The amount of healing from 2stacks of the blackout kick buff is around 460k (over 30s) healing for me. Using tigers palm is frankly a bad idea, because 30% armor pene per use is NOT equal to 230k healing (the amount you get from one chi of chi burst.) Using both those will straight up REDUCE your healing done. If you use these abilities, you are hurting your own ability to heal.
Maybe you should try looking at both math and real heroic logs and fights before you start telling someone who uses both that he is wrong.
Based on math, if I'm off the boss for 2s, or targeting anyone else for 2s during the entire BK buff, or if I clip it by 2s, then I am LOSING healing done.

Spirit is actually very weak. 1 spirit = .625mp5. That means over a 6minute fight, one spirit gives 45 mana. That's really not as good as people think it is.
I run with 7300 spirit and don't go OOM because I know how to get the most out of my class' mana regen techniques and the most efficient methods of healing which also happen to be our highest throughput at the moment. The amount of heals you can cast don't matter when I will have already topped the raid with less spells while you're jabbing for chi for another uplift.

And I do believe I said I matched sockets with gems. But if I'm not going oom and I'm always healing whenever someone in the raid needs healing, then theres no reason to get more spirit when I can gain throughput instead. IE: Int > spirit. Especially at a 1:1 ratio. Even at 2:1 it's on the fence slightly in ints favor. Go do the math if you want a "fer realz" answer. And our spells scale a little more than twice as well with spellpower (or that is to say, around 120% better with int) than crit. And mastery is just bad. (though still better than haste.)

Unless you can link logs of yourself using fistweaving and keeping up BK+TP and healing in heroic raids (or normals) with a healing core that is very, very solid and competitive like mine, I will rely on all the math I've seen and all my experience in H MGV and H HoF over your baseless assumptions, because all the math and theory I've done completely disagrees with you.

[Allyrion]

No. The amount of healing from 2stacks of the blackout kick buff is around 460k (over 30s) healing for me. Using tigers palm is frankly a bad idea, because 30% armor pene per use is NOT equal to 230k healing (the amount you get from one chi of chi burst.) Using both those will straight up REDUCE your healing done. If you use these abilities, you are hurting your own ability to heal.
Maybe you should try looking at both math and real heroic logs and fights before you start telling someone who uses both that he is wrong.
Based on math, if I'm off the boss for 2s, or targeting anyone else for 2s during the entire BK buff, or if I clip it by 2s, then I am LOSING healing done.

Spirit is actually very weak. 1 spirit = .625mp5. That means over a 6minute fight, one spirit gives 45 mana. That's really not as good as people think it is.
I run with 7300 spirit and don't go OOM because I know how to get the most out of my class' mana regen techniques and the most efficient methods of healing which also happen to be our highest throughput at the moment. The amount of heals you can cast don't matter when I will have already topped the raid with less spells while you're jabbing for chi for another uplift.

And I do believe I said I matched sockets with gems. But if I'm not going oom and I'm always healing whenever someone in the raid needs healing, then theres no reason to get more spirit when I can gain throughput instead. IE: Int > spirit. Especially at a 1:1 ratio. Even at 2:1 it's on the fence slightly in ints favor. Go do the math if you want a "fer realz" answer. And our spells scale a little more than twice as well with spellpower (or that is to say, around 120% better with int) than crit. And mastery is just bad. (though still better than haste.)

Unless you can link logs of yourself using fistweaving and keeping up BK+TP and healing in heroic raids (or normals) with a healing core that is very, very solid and competitive like mine, I will rely on all the math I've seen and all my experience in H MGV and H HoF over your baseless assumptions, because all the math and theory I've done completely disagrees with you.

You said someone should link logs if they disagree with you, then you should link yours. I don't mind giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to see your healing priorities and how it works out. I can figure that out from just looking at the log.

[Deleted]

No. The amount of healing from 2stacks of the blackout kick buff is around 460k (over 30s) healing for me. Using tigers palm is frankly a bad idea, because 30% armor pene per use is NOT equal to 230k healing (the amount you get from one chi of chi burst.) Using both those will straight up REDUCE your healing done. If you use these abilities, you are hurting your own ability to heal.
Maybe you should try looking at both math and real heroic logs and fights before you start telling someone who uses both that he is wrong.
Based on math, if I'm off the boss for 2s, or targeting anyone else for 2s during the entire BK buff, or if I clip it by 2s, then I am LOSING healing done.

Spirit is actually very weak. 1 spirit = .625mp5. That means over a 6minute fight, one spirit gives 45 mana. That's really not as good as people think it is.
I run with 7300 spirit and don't go OOM because I know how to get the most out of my class' mana regen techniques and the most efficient methods of healing which also happen to be our highest throughput at the moment. The amount of heals you can cast don't matter when I will have already topped the raid with less spells while you're jabbing for chi for another uplift.

And I do believe I said I matched sockets with gems. But if I'm not going oom and I'm always healing whenever someone in the raid needs healing, then theres no reason to get more spirit when I can gain throughput instead. IE: Int > spirit. Especially at a 1:1 ratio. Even at 2:1 it's on the fence slightly in ints favor. Go do the math if you want a "fer realz" answer. And our spells scale a little more than twice as well with spellpower (or that is to say, around 120% better with int) than crit. And mastery is just bad. (though still better than haste.)

Unless you can link logs of yourself using fistweaving and keeping up BK+TP and healing in heroic raids (or normals) with a healing core that is very, very solid and competitive like mine, I will rely on all the math I've seen and all my experience in H MGV and H HoF over your baseless assumptions, because all the math and theory I've done completely disagrees with you.

If what you say is all true. This is remarkably groundbreaking. And you should probably try to reach out to the community! I'd also be interested in seeing your character on the armory and maybe some logs

[Astraios]

You said someone should link logs if they disagree with you, then you should link yours. I don't mind giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I'd like to see your healing priorities and how it works out. I can figure that out from just looking at the log.

Okay:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/27393/
All my most recent logs are in there (prometheans logs are publicly uploaded to WoL), I'm in there starting sixth of november.
I'll give specific links to logs with kills:
1st boss HoF normal, 2nd boss heroic
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-z4rf9kw0tkijqjq8/
3rd boss HoF heroic, 4th heroic:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-khz549fbk284o729/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tjl25cq8k4r47kdx/
5th and 6th boss HoF normal:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/hpnf8rmlawd0kmeh/
1/2/3 heroic MGV:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/giqxbe4578gtga1w/
4/5/6 (I'm only in for 5/6, I kept lagging and getting killed by massive attacks when i was 10yds out of animation, was pretty stupid imo):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/5yry679eslqz6i0w/
Those are all my most recent logs. Healing priority changes per fight.
General priority:
Chi generation:
RnM on CD
Expel harm on CD if not chi capped
jab for more chi

chi spending:
Uplift if RnM on >10 targets
Chi burst if raid stacked
chi burst if can hit >6 targets
Uplift
BK if no expected damage in next 10s~ give or take. (If theres no raid damage being done and I'm goign to be using RnM I don't want to waste chi because that wastes mana, so I would rather get some healing than none. But I do NOT keep SZ up as a priority. It's a chi dump that I expect to do some amount of healing >0, which an uplift or chi burst would do at this point.)

Other than that it's all CD management. Which is completely fight dependent and depends on raid strat.

Edit: My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...A5ios/advanced
Edit2: Majority of my calculations are done utilizing: http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/...aver/calc.html

[Deleted]

Well your priority system makes a lot of sense, and seeing your logs and your last post makes your message a lot clearer. (As i side note I don't keep the buffs on a ~100% uptime, same as you, they're just Chi dump during any slow healing phase.)

Do you still stack SZ when Xuen is active?

[Astraios]

Well your priority system makes a lot of sense, and seeing your logs and your last post makes your message a lot clearer. (As i side note I don't keep the buffs on a ~100% uptime, same as you, they're just Chi dump during any slow healing phase.)

Do you still stack SZ when Xuen is active?

I'm under the impression that SZ doesnt benefit xuen's auto-attacks as he is special damage, though I haven't specifically tested it. I know his lightning heals w/o SZ for sure, and his lightning is 90% of his damage.
I'll prolly test that later tonight.

[Courierrawr]

You're going to need to make some adjustments to that build in a few weeks, Chi Burst is being nerfed into the ground and the cost of all our spells is being increased by 10%, making spirit more of a requirement, and yes, I know we'll have a chance to generate two mana tea based on our crit chance, but that's a pretty low chance and shouldn't be relied upon.

[TheWindWalker]

and yes, I know we'll have a chance to generate two mana tea based on our crit chance, but that's a pretty low chance and shouldn't be relied upon.

Not to mention that, for crit>>master builds, using it glyphed after our mana cost increase will mean having plenty of excess stacks after a battle is through. Those relying on minimalist spirit builds are likely going to see a sudden reunion with the concept of going OoM during unexpected raid damage spirals.

[Astraios]

You're going to need to make some adjustments to that build in a few weeks, Chi Burst is being nerfed into the ground and the cost of all our spells is being increased by 10%, making spirit more of a requirement, and yes, I know we'll have a chance to generate two mana tea based on our crit chance, but that's a pretty low chance and shouldn't be relied upon.

24% increase to mana tea is 720 extra mana on average, average cost of jab is going up by 900. Thats 180 mana per. Insignificant. I might increase to 8000 spirit to start just in case, but thats barely anything, and hardly what most people spout off. Further, chi burst isnt being nerfed into the ground. its being nerfed the same amount as uplift. Nothing changes except the relative strength of SCK to our chi spenders and the number where chi burst>uplift.
Ultimately this thread isn't about next patch or how I will adjust my healing. This is about MW healing in general in the current meta(patch.) If you want to discuss the next patch PM me, msg me on my server, or make another topic and I'll talk about it.

[Hipsterghost]

make sure you have this fun macro for your spinning crane kick:
#showtooltip
/cast !Spinning Crane Kick

don't wanna accidentally interrupt the healing ~_~

[Astraios]

make sure you have this fun macro for your spinning crane kick:
#showtooltip
/cast !Spinning Crane Kick

don't wanna accidentally interrupt the healing ~_~

Wait, mine doesnt interrupt when I spam it? 0.o

[mkultra55]

No. The amount of healing from 2stacks of the blackout kick buff is around 460k (over 30s) healing for me. Using tigers palm is frankly a bad idea, because 30% armor pene per use is NOT equal to 230k healing (the amount you get from one chi of chi burst.) Using both those will straight up REDUCE your healing done. If you use these abilities, you are hurting your own ability to heal.

I like to get Serpent's Zeal up on the pull since I try to start with 4 Chi anyway. I find it's a quick way to use the Chi to start my Mana Tea stacking. Since there's little to heal that early I don't think my healing is being hurt and in fact the Eminince Healing at the beginning seems to be just right.

Then it's just one BoK every 30 seconds to keep SZ up as long as I'm melee'ing Boss. That's not a bad use of Chi IMO. I agree though that based on the fight mechanics if Serpent's Zeal falls off I tend to ignore it for the rest of the encounter in favor of Chi Burst or Uplift. I think one thing you're forgetting in the math is that Serpent's Zeal is free healing. Whether that means anything with the mana changes in 5.1 is another story. Everything else you pointed out is spot on IMO.

A couple of things I've found relating to some of the other posts here.......

1) Crackling Jade Lightning.
I think it's wrong to say this should just be ignored (especially with the upcoming Buff to Chi Generation it's getting). Unless I'm assigned to watch the Tank I think CJL is a better ranged choice than Soothing Mists. Any DPS on the Boss is helpful and it procs Eminence from yourself and your Statue. So it winds up being a nice smart heal for the duration of the Channel.

2) The Guide posted on page one kept saying that only Jab procs Eminence which is misleading. All our non-auto attack damage other than the T30 spells proc Eminence healing. Jab is just the only damage dealing mana consuming ability that procs it. Everything else costs Chi which may be better spent on something else.

3) Fistweaving is not a style IMO. It's not a choice between Fistweaving and being a classic ranged healer. Monks should be doing both based on the encounter mechanics. If a Monk can be in melee range there's really no reason not to be in melee range even if you don't keep up Serpent's Zeal. Being in melee to Jab for faster Chi generation and the healing from Eminence doesn't stop the Monk from doing everything they can do at Range (ReM on CD and using Uplift or Chi Burst/Wave) so why stay at Ranged unless the Boss is doing something nasty up close?

4) Chi Torpedo. For 25 Normals and LFR I prefer Chi Torpedo to Xuen or RJW. It can be a lot of free healing if used right especially paired with Celerity. I'll emphasize that this is for 25 Normals and LFR only.

[Deleted]

I like to get Serpent's Zeal up on the pull since I try to start with 4 Chi anyway. I find it's a quick way to use the Chi to start my Mana Tea stacking. Since there's little to heal that early I don't think my healing is being hurt and in fact the Eminince Healing at the beginning seems to be just right.

Then it's just one BoK every 30 seconds to keep SZ up as long as I'm melee'ing Boss. That's not a bad use of Chi IMO. I agree though that based on the fight mechanics if Serpent's Zeal falls off I tend to ignore it for the rest of the encounter in favor of Chi Burst or Uplift. I think one thing you're forgetting in the math is that Serpent's Zeal is free healing. Whether that means anything with the mana changes in 5.1 is another story. Everything else you pointed out is spot on IMO.

A couple of things I've found relating to some of the other posts here.......

1) Crackling Jade Lightning.
I think it's wrong to say this should just be ignored (especially with the upcoming Buff to Chi Generation it's getting). Unless I'm assigned to watch the Tank I think CJL is a better ranged choice than Soothing Mists. Any DPS on the Boss is helpful and it procs Eminence from yourself and your Statue. So it winds up being a nice smart heal for the duration of the Channel.

2) The Guide posted on page one kept saying that only Jab procs Eminence which is misleading. All our non-auto attack damage other than the T30 spells proc Eminence healing. Jab is just the only damage dealing mana consuming ability that procs it. Everything else costs Chi which may be better spent on something else.

3) Fistweaving is not a style IMO. It's not a choice between Fistweaving and being a classic ranged healer. Monks should be doing both based on the encounter mechanics. If a Monk can be in melee range there's really no reason not to be in melee range even if you don't keep up Serpent's Zeal. Being in melee to Jab for faster Chi generation and the healing from Eminence doesn't stop the Monk from doing everything they can do at Range (ReM on CD and using Uplift or Chi Burst/Wave) so why stay at Ranged unless the Boss is doing something nasty up close?

4) Chi Torpedo. For 25 Normals and LFR I prefer Chi Torpedo to Xuen or RJW. It can be a lot of free healing if used right especially paired with Celerity. I'll emphasize that this is for 25 Normals and LFR only.

This. Thanks for this. I failed to express myself, but this is my point exactly.

I always open with 2x BK and tend to re-apply them along with Tiger Palm during down time. I'm nowhere near any competitive raiding, so my experience obviously can't be applied to everyone, but healing via eminence and using Chi on BK and TP will often result in a very neutral, if not positive, mana return from Mana Tea and around 10k Spirit, while still healing for quite a bit. Prioritising the buffs above all else might not be a good idea though.

I still don't agree with favouring intellect over spirit. Over a long fight I can only see one winner when it comes to extra mana vs. bonus healing from spell power. Will have to test if for myself though.

[Astraios]

This. Thanks for this. I failed to express myself, but this is my point exactly.

I always open with 2x BK and tend to re-apply them along with Tiger Palm during down time. I'm nowhere near any competitive raiding, so my experience obviously can't be applied to everyone, but healing via eminence and using Chi on BK and TP will often result in a very neutral, if not positive, mana return from Mana Tea and around 10k Spirit, while still healing for quite a bit. Prioritising the buffs above all else might not be a good idea though.

I still don't agree with favouring intellect over spirit. Over a long fight I can only see one winner when it comes to extra mana vs. bonus healing from spell power. Will have to test if for myself though.

I generally raid with a holy paladin and a disc priest in my 25m, so the first 15-30s of a fight normally involve no healing because of shield stacking between the two. That being said, I could see using 4 chi for 2x SZ as being useful, however I normally prioritize getting a proper opener of RnM so I can get a TFT for burst at the right time. Could both be done at the same time? Yes. But I don't see much extra healing coming from SZ. Granted we spent the last two days on Imperial Vizier, and of course the time we kill him I get killed by exhale lol >.<, but back on topic I just dont see the two stacks doing much. I used it a lot more on our recent kill just because I was chi dumping and to test it. Most of what I found is if I get in rhythm and know the times it falls off, I can keep it up/on for awhile. But if I try to keep it up while managing my 'healing plan' (I tend to be given free reign over TFT/revival/chi brew/etc, so my healing CD's) which I try to maximize the use of, then it falls off a lot, unless I get used to it as I said. And it isn't "Free" healing, because it uses two chi which could be used for an EnvM, uplift, chi wave, chi burst, etc. If you're going to just 'waste" the chi, then it could be considered free healing, yes I agree. However most fights that isn't really applicable, in my experiences. Esp. with using EnvM to pre-empt tank spikes.

In my opinion, the scaling from int and spirit over a longer fight duration is in most cases linear. As a fight goes on your current spirit will continue giving you more mana, and every spell throughout the entire fight benefits from your extra int/throughput, whereas spirit only benefits the last, say, 30-60s. Assuming you're even going OOM. I'm a min-maxer, so if I am not OOM by the end of the fight, or close to it, then I have wasted stats in spirit. Thats why I run with such low spirit, and I've learned to heal with that spirit. There are many attempts where I will be brez'd and even starting with nearly zero mana I can sustain through the end of a fight. Obviously different fights have a different amount of "optimal" spirit and so I tend to run with the highest amount needed. And generally my 7300 spirit keeps my mana up.

Chi Torpedo definitely has its place in raids, even 25 H raids, I trade between it and Xuen depending on fight. (Extra cooldown throughput or just flat throughput gain.)

On a completely unrelated note, crit RNG is very amusing. That awkward moment when you look at your log and your average chi burst crit is 35.4k but your average chi burst hit is like 15k. (not including overhealing.)

[Deleted]

In my opinion, the scaling from int and spirit over a longer fight duration is in most cases linear. As a fight goes on your current spirit will continue giving you more mana, and every spell throughout the entire fight benefits from your extra int/throughput, whereas spirit only benefits the last, say, 30-60s. Assuming you're even going OOM. I'm a min-maxer, so if I am not OOM by the end of the fight, or close to it, then I have wasted stats in spirit. Thats why I run with such low spirit, and I've learned to heal with that spirit. There are many attempts where I will be brez'd and even starting with nearly zero mana I can sustain through the end of a fight. Obviously different fights have a different amount of "optimal" spirit and so I tend to run with the highest amount needed. And generally my 7300 spirit keeps my mana up.

I always aim for having as little mana as possible towards the end of a fight as well. And yes, there will come a point when I will sit on more than enough mana (spirit), but right now, I'm at 10,000 spirit, and that works well for me. Allows me to spam a bit when needed (our raids are never super smooth and are often quite spiky).

With that, for most regular, low/mid-end healers (like myself) Spirit > Intellect. Not solely because of the healers skill to retain mana, but because of the skill of others. Simply it's more forgiving.

Basically all of the high-end healers I have seen has been around 10k spirit, all classes. So I think that's a pretty common baseline atm.

[Priya-tan]

I'm surprised to see many monks completely disregarding the power of eminence and our Serpent Statue. While I don't actively try to keep Serpent's Zeal up for EVERY SINGLE FIGHT, I do find that certain fights that don't require a great deal of movement cater to it. On said fights, eminence tends to be one of my top spells for healing. I'm also surprised to see a lot of people discounting the power of mistweaving. I too, at first, found it less efficient, but on a fight like Will of the Emperor (I suck at dancing), I found myself able to keep people up via Soothing Mist, Renewing Mist, and Uplift, without going OOM or having any issues for that matter.

I would suggest trying out both fist and mistweaving, and see which ones benefit you on different fights (or mixing them together!). I know that I'm still finding my own ways of healing, but after my MV run last night, I found that I was starting to get really comfortable with healing and had a lot of fun! I won't try to pretend like I'm some amazing healer, but I definitely think I'm starting to improve by leaps and bounds after trying multiple healing styles.

[Dreyo]

Eminence also is nearly impossible to overheal with, that should not be neglected to mention.