"Cold Blood helped make rogues not care about crit as a stat."

[Deleted]

I'm with you for the most part Incineration, and you make some very valid points. But I simply disagree to some extend as in that I think they have at least tried to fix the problem of crit being absolutely horrible. While crit is still our worst stat, it's not nearly as frowned upon as say Cataclysm. Crit's value is so close to haste now that we are able to just equip what we get with the highest item level. There we a post on elitistjerks somewhere where they calculated it was always more beneficial to equip your highest item level item aside from one exception with I think a heroic item being better than a heroic elite item.

I wish Shadow Blades did something else for Assassination. Maybe increase all critical damage you deal by 50% when it's active, or something like that. Or hell give us Cold Blood back and rework it so it so it doubles all the critical damage we deal for a period of time. Just...something. At this point I'll be happy if we get a cooldown that turns us into a pink pony for 5 seconds.

[OneSent]

I honestly can't remember a single point in time since Jewelcrafting was introduced that we ever cared about crit as a stat.

And Cold Blood was like a 3min CD, iirc. Hardly enough to make any difference whatsoever. But I always found the skill to be lackluster anyways, so I certainly don't miss it.

[Nosferato]

give back focused attacks 1 crit gives 1 energy, or make it work for specials, or assa only poisons, or atleast something that would give more than 1 cp benefit from a crit

[Deleted]

I'm with you for the most part Incineration, and you make some very valid points. But I simply disagree to some extend as in that I think they have at least tried to fix the problem of crit being absolutely horrible. While crit is still our worst stat, it's not nearly as frowned upon as say Cataclysm. Crit's value is so close to haste now that we are able to just equip what we get with the highest item level. There we a post on elitistjerks somewhere where they calculated it was always more beneficial to equip your highest item level item aside from one exception with I think a heroic item being better than a heroic elite item.

I wish Shadow Blades did something else for Assassination. Maybe increase all critical damage you deal by 50% when it's active, or something like that. Or hell give us Cold Blood back and rework it so it so it doubles all the critical damage we deal for a period of time. Just...something. At this point I'll be happy if we get a cooldown that turns us into a pink pony for 5 seconds.

I might have missed something, so could you elaborate when you say they've tried to fix the problem of crit? I don't recall anything being done to our crit-mechanics, apart from the removal of the +crit damage talents(and the removal of Cold Blood, I suppose).

And yes, Shadow Blades seems very tacked on. Again, outside of Combat, its purpose seems very unclear. It's been causing quite a bit of trouble for me, as Assassination, because I often end up capped on combo point and energy while I already have the Envenom buff up and running. I'm often forced to either clip the Envenom buff, to waste energy, or to waste combo points; with just a few crits, the cooldown completely breaks the fluidity of the rotation. It's probably more manageable as Sub, seeing as you can just Eviscerate to your hearts content, but it's quite annoying to deal with as Assassination.

[Deleted]

I might have missed something, so could you elaborate when you say they've tried to fix the problem of crit? I don't recall anything being done to our crit-mechanics, apart from the removal of the +crit damage talents(and the removal of Cold Blood, I suppose).

Crit had such a low value because we had abilities which passively had a certain percentage to crit. Cold Blood added to that problem as well. If your main abilities already have a chance to crit on their own getting crit rating isn't very attractive. They tried to fix this whole crit is taboo thing we had going on by removing all the passive crit talents and such. This also includes Cold Blood. I see what they tried to do, and I say they only partially fixed the ''problem''. Crit would be much more interesting to us if we had some other mechanics related to crit like Warriors*.

*Warriors gain more rage on crits, get a damage buff, and as Fury allows you to use an ability you can't otherwise use. While I think they overdid it a bit too much for Warriors it would be nice if crit actually meant something more to us. Seal Fate is a step in the right direction but it's still not very intuitive.

[Gnu]

I pissed my pants when I read that. Seriously who can say such a thing?!?

[dinouille]

this gc is amazing,

it's bulshit after bulshit, seems to me that he nerver play a rogue and know nothing about them, honestly, everytime he speak about rogues, he make me rofls irl

[Deleted]

Is that quote from twitter or from where?

I want to answer to this one :

"What if I tell you what I find fun and you tell me what you find fun & everyone stops trying to be the voice of the community. "

with

"Being the least played class is enough representation of the voice of the community"

[Austilias]

In terms of PvE I love how Rogues are at the moment, Assassination especially. The absolute last thing I want is for rogues, a class pretty much defined by subtlety, inconspicuousness and reconnaissance, to be an unmissable, Paladinesque night-light whom you can barely see for all the flashing. Frankly though this comment from GC seems like a cop-out; if a guaranteed crit every 3 mins made Rogues not care about crit then I have to wonder how they balance that with Warriors who despite having Recklessness which is probably the strongest spell in the game that is built around the concept of crit and has a CD that's only around 2 mins longer.

Much as I love Rogues in their PvE state though, I understand the frustration when he comes out with unadulterated bullshit such as;

What if I tell you what I find fun and you tell me what you find fun & everyone stops trying to be the voice of the community?

Should people not try to be the voice of the community? And if not the entire community, then at least a part? I've always hated PvP in WoW but I think it's essentially unquestionable that they need fixing, whatever GC thinks and however 'fun' he may find what I have heard to be the experience of being nigh incapable of killing anything whilst being killed very easily one's self.

Perhaps they have a phobia of returning to the days of late-Cata where 2/3 Backstabs were enough to kill around 70%+ opponents if you had good gear, but the current state is what happens when the phobia of such a situation and the will to avoid it happening again is taken to an extreme.

[Mizzeeh]

While true his argument is so flawed that it could be compared to removing the +4 spirit bonus from campfire because it helps make mana a non-issue for healers, the impact it had on the value of crit was somewhere in the range of 1% decrease.

[Theownt]

I haven't played WoW for a while, but I like to stay up-to-date on the state of the game.

Glad to know there still isn't anyone over at the game development department who is the slightest bit familiar with Rogue mechanics. I suppose some things never change, and that Ghostcrawler can still sound like a blithering idiot when talking about my class of choice.

[Viradiance]

Anyone remember Focused Attacks from Wrath of the Lich King?

Bam. Energy regeneration helped, Crit given actual value for Assassination.

[Verain]

Because it's a much more favorable stat now, right...? Last time I checked, Sub, the one spec that did care about crit, no longer does. Assassination has never cared for crit, nor did the removal of Cold Blood increase its value past the "worst secondary stat"-threshold. If they truly wanted to increase the value of crit, why didn't they simply address the actual issue?

Assassination actually liked it just fine in LK. For a long time we had a mechanic where autoattack crits would restore a small amount of energy, thus boosting the value of crit.

I was pretty surprised by this comment too, for what it is worth. I miss cold blood, and I'm sad that it went away for such a trashcan reason.

Oh by the way- you may actually value crit more than haste at your gear level. The EJ values (which only have haste edging crit slightly) are for BIS geared rogues, which I'm assuming we aren't yet. Shadowcraft puts my EP for crit slightly ahead of my haste EP, though both are so close that it barely matters.




But anyway, the big things hurting rogues love for crit:

1)- We had a +15% crit chance on mutilate.
2)- We had +50% damage crits from poisons

With those two things gone, crit would be ok. In fact, it would be great if we had kept stuff like "your mutilate crits harder than 200% damage".

[Sesshou]

Crit had such a low value because we had abilities which passively had a certain percentage to crit.

I don't see how that makes sense. Having a built in 15% crit to mut from the old talents doesn't effect the value of crit unless you are getting your mut crit chance over 100%.

I do agree that cold blood lowered it because for that one attack, none of the crit rating or agi crit mattered at all, but thats 1 hit with a fairly long cd.

[Wow]

Assassination actually liked it just fine in LK. For a long time we had a mechanic where autoattack crits would restore a small amount of energy, thus boosting the value of crit.

While this is true it doesn't mean as much overall since all there was haste, crit, and arp and it didn't like arp at all.

On topic they didn't listen all beta and said the same crap not shocked to see it still going.

Crit had such a low value because we had abilities which passively had a certain percentage to crit.

Sub had the most bonus crit out of the 3 specs in cata and liked crit the most out of them guess that kills your point. Now crit down at the bottom for sub good job making crit better blizz? The thing is they didn't just remove bonus crit they also removed most of the things that made crit better at all. Like lethality and 5 energy on backstab crits removed didn't help wanting crit. And before some retard says "but now it has a lower cost" that it does but that doesn't help you want crit in anyway.

Pve pvp its like they tried to do the worst job possible on rogues to make people want to stop playing them.

[Verain]

[/quote]I don't see how that makes sense. Having a built in 15% crit to mut from the old talents doesn't effect the value of crit unless you are getting your mut crit chance over 100%.[/quote]

No, you got that wrong. It's an easy mistake.

Pretend that I have a move that hits for 1000, and crits 0% of the time. On average, this move does 1000 per hit. We'll call this guy Rogue-A.

Now pretend that I have a move that hits for 870, and crits 15% of the time. This move does 870 85% of the time, and 1740 15% of the time. 870*0.85 + 1740*0.15 = 740 + 261 = 1001 is the average damage per hit. This guy is Rogue-B.

Both Rogue-A and Rogue-B do the same damage with the move, on average, but Rogue-B crits more to get there, because he has that baseline crit.


Now I walk in and add some crit rating- enough to add 10% crit chance to both rogues.

Rogue-A goes from 1000 to 1100 average damage. His damage increased by 10%.

Since Rogue-A now crits 10% of the time, he hits for 1000*.90 (1000 damage 90% of the time), and he hits for 2000*.10 (2000 damage 10% of the time). 900+200 = 1100. 1100/1000 = 10% damage boost, as you would expect.

Rogue-B goes from 1001 to 1088 average damage. His damage increased by 8.7%.

Since Rogue-A now crits 25% of the time, he hits for 870*.75 (870 damage 75% of the time), and he hits for 1740*.24 (1740 damage 25% of the time). 653 + 435= 1088. 1088/1001 = 8.7% damage boost.

So by adding 10% crit to a base crit of 0% versus a base crit of 15%, you saw the damage go up more in the first case. Since crit rating can be exchanged for other ratings, Rogue-A might actually like crit, but Rogue-B will probably not want it that much.

---------- Post added 2012-11-15 at 06:44 PM ----------

I do agree that cold blood lowered it because for that one attack, none of the crit rating or agi crit mattered at all, but thats 1 hit with a fairly long cd.

Right, cold blood was hardly the damned issue. One move every 3 minutes devalued a stat? How about the moves we used as our builders having 15% or 30% crit built in?

[Deleted]

Why don't they just increase the % value for crit enough to make it a more desirable statistic?
Critting is fun, shame it's such a lowly stat.

[Verain]

Sub had the most bonus crit out of the 3 specs in cata and liked crit the most out of them guess that kills your point.

Sub had a lot of rewards for critting. Crit backstab and you got energy refunded. Crit hemo and the dot was bigger (we kept this one somehow). Crit anything and you get some rolling dot from Firelands 2 Piece, which you actually wanted to use as sub because of all your crit ambushes. Oh, and crit backstab got a nice shiny fat multiplier > 2.

His point isn't invalid, but you would want to extend it-

If you have so much passive crit that it outweighs the rewards you get for critting, then crit will suck for you.

Mutilate had the first, but not the second. In fact, mutilate had a huge poison boost, but the poisons crit for 1.5X. Sub had the first, but had the second in spades, so it was ok.



Cold Blood was NEVER the problem.

[Sesshou]

Not quoting your math for space, but that doesn't make sense. I could copy that same argument for attack speed with haste.

The reason it doesn't make sense is that 1% crit (not counting bonuses and crap which you didn't either) is 1% more damage (because it turns 1% of your 100% damage attacks into 200% damage attacks). All you showed is that crit gives you more damage in number the higher your non crit damage is in the first place. Its not like there is actual DR on crit.

I mean come on, obviously if I hit harder, turning that harder hit into a crit will end up with a larger hit than the guy who hits for less. All you really showed is that crit scales in value in relation to your other stats.

[Eazy]

It had 3 min cool down, gave you energy and 100% chance for critical strike. Nothing much, but was a nice skill.
They also said that they don't want Vanish to be CD for rogues and that's the reason why they deleted Overkill. But wait... they add talents which make your stealth attacks better!

This is the reason why I'm not longer playing WoW, they're destroying the game and don't even know why.