Enhance and the Rise of Haste

[Stevenzb]

anyone else bummed about having to start gemming haste again?
So much movement in these bosses makes it hard to always be in melee range

Side note: how accurate is simcraft now a days? Its the only sim left right?

[Murderdoll]

Yeah a lot of people are having vastly different sim results. Im personally simming with mastery still ahead.

But Haste is still extremely important. I will be interested to see where we end up towards the end of the expansion but so far a healthy mix of mastery and haste seems to be the way to go.

[Stevenzb]

Try out some logs and don´t worry too much about stacking haste so much, the truth is, you want an even ammount of haste, mastery and crit.

That is terrible advice, you should not look at logs from attempts and make assumptions out of it. That is why simulations have iterations of 10k+.
What is your reasoning behind keeping these three stats aligned? This sounds like a 'feels like' answer instead of a correct one.

My complaint about stacking haste over mastery comes with boss movement. Haste takes a larger hit when you can not auto attack the boss than mastery outside of UE buff.

Yeah a lot of people are having vastly different sim results. Im personally simming with mastery still ahead.

just curious, what are your current stats/armory?

[Endus]

Simcraft, and any other sim, isn´t the only thing to consider fpr gear, gems and reforges. It helps, but you shouldnt base your gear only on it.

Try out some logs and don´t worry too much about stacking haste so much, the truth is, you want an even ammount of haste, mastery and crit. Don´t just exclude everything else in favor of haste.

This is honestly kind of like saying "I don't care what the math says, I flipped 100 coins and 55 of them turned up heads, so it's clearly not a 50/50 chance, more like 55/45".

Statistics relies heavily on large numbers. Most of the time, when you see a statistical statement based on relatively low numbers that concludes Y, it will include a qualifier like "results accurate within +/- X, 19 times out of 20" What that means is that if you did the same study 20 times, you'd expect that 19 or so of those studies would vary between Y-X and Y+X. And the 20th study could be WILDLY different. Even then, they've had to increase the sample size just to reduce the size of X, and ensure that the chances are as low as 19 times out of 20.

Running a few attempts isn't anywhere close to that level of statistical accuracy. You MIGHT be right, but it would only be for the same reason a stopped clock is right twice a day; coincidence happens.

If you don't believe me, go flip 100 coins and record the results. Chances are you will NOT get 50 heads/50 tails. You'll get 51-54 of one or the other.

That's why we use sims. Not because they're mechanical, but because they generate massive numbers of results. The same way if you wrote a program to "flip" a coin 50,000 times, you'd get much closer to 50/50 results, on average, than you would flipping 100 coins manually.

[Zinjan]

Ive experienced similar results, all secondary stacks are very close to equal with agility nearing 4x the value of all of them

[Grimbold21]

Isn't that graph from Totemspot, which also has a graph that shows that in the end mastery will pull ahead?

[badkarma81]

Wait... what... seriously?.... The difference is like 400 dps (102.2K vs 101.7-8K or so).
I get simcraft, theorycrafting and whatnot, but this is a little insane.
We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?

When you're in a 6 minute fight, as a human being, you're going to be blowing a lot
more than 1% of your DPS on latency, wrong button presses, RNG...

And thank you Endus, you're spot on, I appreciate your explanation of simcraft and
hope that it reaches those willing to listen (or understand).

[Stevenzb]

Isn't that graph from Totemspot, which also has a graph that shows that in the end mastery will pull ahead?

No this is from my personal simming of my current gear.

We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?.

For now that is the difference. I don't understand your point.

[Hyttis]

Wait... what... seriously?.... The difference is like 400 dps (102.2K vs 101.7-8K or so).
I get simcraft, theorycrafting and whatnot, but this is a little insane.
We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?

When you're in a 6 minute fight, as a human being, you're going to be blowing a lot
more than 1% of your DPS on latency, wrong button presses, RNG...

And thank you Endus, you're spot on, I appreciate your explanation of simcraft and
hope that it reaches those willing to listen (or understand).

I think the biggest difference is the nature of these stats. Haste gives you more hits, and mastery makes you hit harder. Currently, most HC events require a lot of movement, so i'm (personally) performing way better with mastery, since i can't just stand at boss and nuke.

[Deleted]

I think the biggest difference is the nature of these stats. Haste gives you more hits, and mastery makes you hit harder. Currently, most HC events require a lot of movement, so i'm (personally) performing way better with mastery, since i can't just stand at boss and nuke.

This would probably be the best approach to take in the current tier. Movement is going to skew those results more towards mastery anyway, lessening the gap between haste and mastery further - movement heavy fights would likely see mastery beating haste.

This is of course somewhat subject to the talent build you run as well

[Caltiom]

The plot is only valid for moving one of those stats at a time, not multiple ones together. So for your current gear situation, adding haste would be better than mastery/crit.

That doesn't mean that after you added lets say 1000 haste, this ranking still remains true. After that the weights might have shifted, once again in favour of Mastery. In this situation, you really should use reforge plots instead of normal plots.

Ps. Patchwerk Enh Sim should be pretty accurate, but melee movement ( which depends heavily on the definition of it ) currently lacks a bit of finesse I believe.

[Ronix]

Wait... what... seriously?.... The difference is like 400 dps (102.2K vs 101.7-8K or so).
I get simcraft, theorycrafting and whatnot, but this is a little insane.
We're REALLY talking about a difference of less than 1%?

When you're in a 6 minute fight, as a human being, you're going to be blowing a lot
more than 1% of your DPS on latency, wrong button presses, RNG...

And thank you Endus, you're spot on, I appreciate your explanation of simcraft and
hope that it reaches those willing to listen (or understand).

The reason is Enh wants every bit of dps it can get, so they can secure their raid spot. Progression raid leaders look at WoL, see Enh is only in top 10 in 2 fights, and pull out the sheers in favor of a boomkin.

[Thanntos]

The reason is Enh wants every bit of dps it can get, so they can secure their raid spot. Progression raid leaders look at WoL, see Enh is only in top 10 in 2 fights, and pull out the sheers in favor of a boomkin.

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

[Deleted]

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Raid_T14H.html

Fight Style: Patchwerk

[Koohii]

The reason is Enh wants every bit of dps it can get, so they can secure their raid spot. Progression raid leaders look at WoL, see Enh is only in top 10 in 2 fights, and pull out the sheers in favor of a boomkin.

Don't know how accurate Raidbot is, or if it pulls its info from WoL, but pretty much all the parses (Yes I set it to all, not top 100) normal and heroic, Balance was sitting near the bottom of almost all the fights, and only seen a few fights where they beat an Enhance, but not by much. So I don't know what's going on, but according to that, you wouldn't bench an Enhance to bring in a Boomkin.

[Thanntos]

Fight Style: Patchwerk

And? It's a good benchmark to how classes are stacking up against each other based off equal skill play to max potential of the class/spec. IE: if you aren't that skilled compared to others within your guild, your obviously going to see lower numbers, which is you're fault not the specs. As for the fights themselves, imo there are only a few this tier that are "favored to range" or "favored to melee" for that to be an excuse.

[Endus]

Fight Style: Patchwerk

If you're going to be like that, http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

Using 25-man Normal because Heroic still lacks enough data for some fights to have anything usable.

Enhancement is, according to all the logs on WoL, #5 overall. They are in the top 10 specs for all 6 fights in HoF, top 5 specs on 5/6. In MSV, they are in the top 10 on 5/6, top 5 on 3/6. ToES is still new and the data's a bit sparse, but still top 10 on 4/4, top 5 on 2/4.

If you're claiming that WoL data says that Enh is only in the top 10 specs for 2 fights in T14, then you literally have not looked at the data you're using. Because they're doing really, really well.

[Deleted]

And? It's a good benchmark to how classes are stacking up against each other based off equal skill play to max potential of the class/spec. IE: if you aren't that skilled compared to others within your guild, your obviously going to see lower numbers, which is you're fault not the specs. As for the fights themselves, imo there are only a few this tier that are "favored to range" or "favored to melee" for that to be an excuse.

And yet it still means pretty much nothing because fights like the sim just don't exist. The only thing it is actually useful for is for a shaman to say "Hey! Demo Lock! In a perfect fight with equal gear, if I go enhancement and we both play perfectly, I'll probably beat you on dps". If you're looking for reasons to validate your raid spot to your raid leader, Simcraft should be the last place you look.

[Ronix]

If you're going to be like that, http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/all/14/60/default/

Using 25-man Normal because Heroic still lacks enough data for some fights to have anything usable.

Enhancement is, according to all the logs on WoL, #5 overall. They are in the top 10 specs for all 6 fights in HoF, top 5 specs on 5/6. In MSV, they are in the top 10 on 5/6, top 5 on 3/6. ToES is still new and the data's a bit sparse, but still top 10 on 4/4, top 5 on 2/4.

If you're claiming that WoL data says that Enh is only in the top 10 specs for 2 fights in T14, then you literally have not looked at the data you're using. Because they're doing really, really well.

10 man progression not so much: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/dps/

[Yalingo]

10 man progression not so much: http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...ss_Spring/dps/

Using that as the basis of your argument is so wrong I can't even begin to explain.....

Raidbots is much better than SimC to determine class performance, as it's using real world data over made up profiles which can (and have been proven) to be wrong.

I've seen mentioned that our BiS gear selection isn't ideal and we're missing some gems etc. This is certainly possible as our BiS profiles are usually done in a rush before a patch goes live.