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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...tic-diplomacy/

    They aren't targeting militia gathering spots, they aren't targeting people on the streets... they're targeting homes, wiping out wives and children as well. I'm listening to the news right now in the background, and they even targeted an art museum, an entire building, to kill a single person inside, and after wounding dozens and killing a civilian declared it a "Success" because those aside, they did kill the intended target. There is a reason why the civilian casualty ratio in the conflict is so high.

    "Overall, the offensive that began Wednesday killed 96 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, and wounded some 720 people, Gaza heath official Ashraf al-Kidra said. Among the wounded were 225 children, he said."
    They're fighting an enemy embedded into one of the most densely populated areas in the world where something like half the population are children. It's going to be ugly.

    Could they do better? I don’t know but they could certainly do worse.
    Last edited by Olo; 2012-11-20 at 05:23 AM.

  2. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    They're fighting an enemy embedded into on the most densely populated areas in the world where something like half the population are children.

    Could they do better? I don’t know but they could certainly do worse.
    I don't see how you could say launching missile strikes into an occupied art museum packed full of civilians to kill a single man is in any way an acceptable solution. If anything, this all looks like terrorist-style focused strikes. Hit the homes, hit the cultural centers, force the people to be too afraid to resist.

  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    I don't see how you could say launching missile strikes into an occupied art museum packed full of civilians to kill a single man is in any way an acceptable solution. If anything, this all looks like terrorist-style focused strikes. Hit the homes, hit the cultural centers, force the people to be too afraid to resist.
    Even you acknowledge they are targeting militants. Your problem is they’re willing to accept collateral damage you deem unacceptable. That’s a discussion for another day but they aren’t purposely targeting civilians.

    If they were they could line artillery up at the border and do much more damage at a fraction of the cost.
    Last edited by Olo; 2012-11-20 at 05:37 AM.

  4. #1124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    Even you acknowledge they are targeting militants. Your problem is they’re willing to accept collateral damage you deem unacceptable. That’s a discussion for another day but they aren’t purposely targeting civilians.

    If they were they could line artillery up at the border and do much more damage at a fraction of the cost.
    They are not purposefully targeting civilians, but they are purposefully hitting areas where they know civilians are and refusing to consider civilian casualties as a factor in their decisions. The ultimate problem here is that you are rationalizing what are clear cut war crimes and crimes against humanity, which I, as well as 14/15 of the Security Council (across several decades as well, which means 10 of the 15 will have changed several times), do not find to be a defensible position regardless of its purpose.

  5. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    Even you acknowledge they are targeting militants. Your problem is they’re willing to accept collateral damage you deem unacceptable. That’s a discussion for another day but they aren’t purposely targeting civilians.
    Has anyone considered that because of the high collateral damage Israel is only creating more Hamas sympathy? I mean, isn't it stupid to give the enemy a reason to hate you even more?

    I bet the people who fire rockets at Israel also consist of ordinary people who have lost loved ones. I really doubt all of them are extremists. And if they are, who's to say it's not because Israel gave them a reason to be like that?

    I'm not saying Palestinians are completely free from guilt. But I do feel things aren't in proportion, Israel seems to be the biggest aggressor in all of this. And how much land have they stolen already? I'm pretty sure the majority in Europe is against the illegal building by Israel, but since the US is backing up Israel they simply continue. If someone steals your land it only makes sense that you want it back. Trying to take it back by force doesn't sound so weird.

  6. #1126
    No side is free from guilt here.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    They are not purposefully targeting civilians, but they are purposefully hitting areas where they know civilians are and refusing to consider civilian casualties as a factor in their decisions. The ultimate problem here is that you are rationalizing what are clear cut war crimes and crimes against humanity, which I, as well as 14/15 of the Security Council (across several decades as well, which means 10 of the 15 will have changed several times), do not find to be a defensible position regardless of its purpose.
    I don’t pretend to be an expert on the Israel/palestine issue but I very much doubt the resolutions you’re referencing have anything to do with Israel’s fighting tactics.

  8. #1128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olo View Post
    I don’t pretend to be an expert on the Israel/palestine issue but I very much doubt the resolutions you’re referencing have anything to do with Israel’s fighting tactics.
    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../usvetoes.html

    You don't have to be an expert; that's why there are experts on the matter, to disclose the issue.

    Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17000.
    Occupied Territories: Deplores "repressive measures" by Israel against Arab population. S/19459.
    Lebanon: Condemns Israeli practices against civilians in southern Lebanon. S/17730/Rev. 2.
    Libya/Israel: Condemns Israeli interception of Libyan plane. S/17796/Rev. 1.
    Lebanon: Draft strongly deplored repeated Israeli attacks against Lebanese territory and other measures and practices against the civilian population; (S/19434)

    Shall I go on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    No side is free from guilt here.
    Definitely true, but in the official eyes of the international theater, only one side is held to blame. If the US had allowed international intervention long ago, before everything had been stirred up to hell, perhaps the situation would have never reached this point.

  9. #1129
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    I think it's still fair to call Israel fucking barbaric in their attacks, however justified you may think they are.

    It doesn't matter how you cut it, having a collateral of 50 civilians in the process of taking out one guy is atrocious.

  10. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Has anyone considered that because of the high collateral damage Israel is only creating more Hamas sympathy? I mean, isn't it stupid to give the enemy a reason to hate you even more?
    Most people tend to ignore that the entire purpose of Hamas' founding was to combat Israeli oppression, and that every time Israeli takes offensive action against Palestinian civilians it shows that Hamas is "right."

    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    I think it's still fair to call Israel fucking barbaric in their attacks, however justified you may think they are.

    It doesn't matter how you cut it, having a collateral of 50 civilians in the process of taking out one guy is atrocious.
    Exactly. If US police took out 50 citizens to kill a single gangbanger, what do you think the public outcry to that would be?

  11. #1131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...tic-diplomacy/

    They aren't targeting militia gathering spots, they aren't targeting people on the streets... they're targeting homes, wiping out wives and children as well. I'm listening to the news right now in the background, and they even targeted an art museum, an entire building, to kill a single person inside, and after wounding dozens and killing a civilian declared it a "Success" because those aside, they did kill the intended target. There is a reason why the civilian casualty ratio in the conflict is so high.

    "Overall, the offensive that began Wednesday killed 96 Palestinians, including 50 civilians, and wounded some 720 people, Gaza heath official Ashraf al-Kidra said. Among the wounded were 225 children, he said."

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 06:18 AM ----------



    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../usvetoes.html
    The greater part of the world is not happy with how Israel has been allowed to go unchecked. Notice that that is the security council, not the GA or some sort of special committee like the HRC. So when there is 14-1 in favor of condemning Israel's actions, you know from that exactly what countries in the world recognize that Israel has, for a long time, crossed the line in terms of how to handle a political conflict.



    Exactly what is the death toll that Hamas has inflicted on Israel? And have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the people taking up the fight against Israel are simple, ordinary people? It goes into the twisted perspective that Hamas has instilled in the people, but I thought an American especially would understand the sentiment of liberty or death.
    If you don't like what could happen, then probably best not to whack on the bigger power. Another report using the women and children to apply spin. Stop firing rockets from civilian ares and maybe they will stop shooting into civilan areas.

  12. #1132
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    If you don't like what could happen, then probably best not to whack on the bigger power. Another report using the women and children to apply spin. Stop firing rockets from civilian ares and maybe they will stop shooting into civilan areas.
    So you're saying that women and children dying is nothing but media sensationalism?

  13. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    So you're saying that women and children dying is nothing but media sensationalism?
    It is being used for that purpose. I am sure that all those rockets that are fired at Israel are targeted at the military and that any sort of civilians casualty is just really really unlucky.

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Exactly. If US police took out 50 citizens to kill a single gangbanger, what do you think the public outcry to that would be?
    According to a 2001 study by the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian-to-soldier death ratio in wars fought since the mid-20th century has been 10:1, meaning ten civilian deaths for every soldier death.[1]

    Using B'tselem's figures they calculated that 816 Palestinians had been killed in Gaza during the two year period, 360 of whom were civilians.[25] 1,010 Israelis were killed between September 29, 2000 and January 1, 2005. Of these, 773 were civilians killed in Palestinian attacks, resulting in a ratio of approximately 5:1.[26]

    The civilian casualty rate of the targeted assassinations was surveyed by Haaretz military journalist Amos Harel. In 2002 and 2003, the ratio was 1:1
    The civilian casualty ratio dropped steeply to 1:28 in late 2005, meaning one civilian killed for every 28 militants killed.

    However, in 2007 and 2008 the ratio dropped to an unprecedented level of less than 1:30, or 2–3 percent of the total casualties being civilian

    the ratio is 1:3 according to the Israeli figures and 60% civilians (3:2) according to B'Tselem's figures. Katz attributes the IDF's low ratio in the Gaza War and in the year preceding it to Israel's investment in special weapons systems, including small smart bombs that minimize collateral damage, and to an upscaled Israeli effort to warn civilians to flee areas and to divert missiles at the last moment if civilians entered a planned strike zone.

    Journalist and commentator Evelyn Gordon writes in Commentary that the civilian casualty ratio in Operation Cast Lead was 39 percent (2:3), using however only the preliminary Israeli estimates, but that 56 or 74 percent were civilians according to B'Tselem's figures, depending on whether 248 Hamas policemen are considered combatants or civilians; and 65 or 83 percent according to the figures of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. Gordon notes that all of these ratios, even if the worse were correct, are lower than the normal civilian-to-combatant wartime fatality ratio in wars elsewhere, as given by the Red Cross, and states that the comparison shows that the IDF was unusually successful at minimizing civilian casualty rates.

    Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare."

    tl;dr with the possible exception of current US drones strikes, Israel vs Gaza produces the lowest ratio of civilian deaths.
    Last edited by Olo; 2012-11-20 at 06:33 AM.

  15. #1135
    Civilians die in battle. It's a fact of war and it's an awful fact. However people trying to suggest that Israel should do nothing and let their Iron Dome system take care of all the rockets is simply stupid. Iron Dome has roughly an 85-90% success rate at taking out the rockets. So that means 1 out 10 will land in a city (it ignores rockets that are going to fall in random ass places.) Now factor in that 1 in 8 rockets don't even make it outside the borders of Palestine. Those rockets that fall short have killed civilians.

    So do some basic math here.

    Hamas launches rockets at Israel. Israel targets the place where those rockets were launched from. Calls up the area where the strike is going to happen to warn the locals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTEDVC5ZqPA&feature=plcp) Then attacks that area. People choose not to leave and end up as collateral damage.

    Hamas launches rocket at Israel and it falls short killing a family that the rocket landed in.

    What is common in all this...Hamas launching a rocket at Israel.



    At the end of the day the numbers are skewed as Hamas claims deaths by rocket misfires as people killed by Israeli bombing. If they were trying to kill civilians why wouldn't it be in the number of 10,000 killed? Why would they bother to abort missions on targets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgHyT3FzTF8&feature=plcp) because innocent civilians will be caught up in it. Or make sure that when they see rocket fire that there are no innocent bystanders when they take the target out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6a112wRmBs&feature=plcp)



    Hamas doesn't do any of that. They just launch the rocket and hope that it hits a target. They don't care if it's the command and control center or a school or even a hospital. They just try to inflict as much damage as possible. They are like the typical kid who talks shit and makes fun of people then the instant you give it right back to them they break down and cry and tell on you.

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Most people tend to ignore that the entire purpose of Hamas' founding was to combat Israeli oppression, and that every time Israeli takes offensive action against Palestinian civilians it shows that Hamas is "right."



    Exactly. If US police took out 50 citizens to kill a single gangbanger, what do you think the public outcry to that would be?
    "Oh my god, let's revolt!" said absolutely nobody after the FBI literally did just that when they stormed David Koresh's little cult hideout in Waco. Besides, the analogy falls apart when you consider that the Palestinians are being governed by the very people who are responsible for these attacks. If Hamas really cared about the casualties that they take, they'd cordon off their launch sites and ban civilians from entering. Obviously, it would make for a better target, and thus Hamas cares more about killing Israelis than defending their own people.

    It's pretty rough trying to fight a war cleanly when the other side openly encourages martyrdom. There was a video that Liara linked earlier in the thread, that has one of the leaders of Hamas(maybe THE leader? I don't remember) essentially saying that they were "a nation of martyrdom". I honestly don't know what the average Palestinian thinks about this, but their leaders sure seem to think that their lives are cheap. This doesn't bother you at all?

    I'm also a little confused. When Hamas launches rocket strikes into civilian territory for weeks on end, and then finally Israel counterattacks, Hamas is vindicated? How do you figure that? It's not like Hamas keeps pushing for peaceful reconciliation and Israel keeps sending in the bombs. I'm not sure what would happen if the Palestinians suddenly decided they were tired of all the death and the fighting, and the reason I'm not sure is because it has NEVER HAPPENED. The region unilaterally rejects the presence of Israel, but can't enforce their will militarily, so this will just drag on and on and on until either Israel is destroyed or the Arabs decide they want peace. It's terrible, but I'm not sure how you expect Israel to accept a situation in which their citizens are constantly under the threat of death.

  17. #1137
    It seems like the public has been juiced up on propaganda for the last few years, we are marching towards a war with Iran and most of you don't even realize it. If you aren't satisfied with being a mindless puppet then I suggest you go look up Noam Chomsky and listen to some of his lectures.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    Before the camps, I regarded the existence of nationality as something that shouldn’t be noticed - nationality did not really exist, only humanity. But in the camps one learns: if you belong to a successful nation you are protected and you survive. If you are part of universal humanity - too bad for you -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    It seems like the public has been juiced up on propaganda for the last few years, we are marching towards a war with Iran and most of you don't even realize it. If you aren't satisfied with being a mindless puppet then I suggest you go look up Noam Chomsky and listen to some of his lectures.
    You're suggesting people to go and hear the position of a biased person.

  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by Mnevis View Post
    Pretty fucking stupid of Hamas to continue with the rocket attacks though. It's like firing a .22 at Godzilla, and Godzilla has already proven willing to drop 3,000 tons of bombs on your neighborhood.
    ]

    "When there is oppression... There will always be a resistance."

    Maybe Godzilla needs to learn to chill out a little and go play with Mothra for a couple of decades.

    Afaik, civillians on both sides are growing weary of the whole thing. It would be nice if one or the other side could negeotiate a relatively small neutral zone where the civillians are evacuated and then let things expand from there.
    Last edited by Frazzle.d; 2012-11-20 at 08:52 AM.
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  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by Frazzle.d View Post
    ]

    "When there is oppression... There will always be a resistance."

    Maybe Godzilla needs to learn to chill out a little and go play with Mothra for a couple of decades.
    Maybe Hamas should stop firing rockets on daily basis and realise they cannot win this one?

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