Anyone who didn't expect Israel to get into war(s) when news of an early election reached us a month or two ago obviously doesn't know their history. Personally, I support Israel. The international press likes to focus on them a lot more as evil oppressors of Palestine and a lot less as the nation surrounded by enemies who would love to wipe them off the map.
1 out of 8 rockets Hamas fires don't even make it across the border. The highly cried about little boy that Egypts PM held and kissed that was killed by Israel, was in fact killed by a Hamas rocket. I have yet to see a death toll from either the UN or Red Cross. Most the dead they claim are women and children, if you took a min to watch that video they talk about using them as human shields. Also I have yet to see a picture that people say is a dead family in Gaza that is actually a dead family.
Almost all photos that people are claiming to be of Palestine are not. Even people in the BBC (http://bbcwatch.org/2012/11/19/bbcs-...-fauxtography/) are falling for it because people can't take the 30sec to use google images.
If the Hamas cared about their children and people as much as the people of Israel do. We wouldn't even be having this talk right now. We would be talking about how bad WoW is and that the next MMO is going to crush it.
If you read the last bit of the wiki quote, two men were trialed and found guilty but neither went to prison.
Besides, using human shields was in fact a tactic for IDF up until 2005.
The IDF admittedly used Palestinians as human shields, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[25] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[26]
Amnesty International[27] and Human Rights Watch[28] assert the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[29][30] The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[29][31]
Last edited by Wilian; 2012-11-20 at 01:12 PM.
Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.
"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988
Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.
"People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988
I don't think that anyone would disagree that not everyone in Palestine is behind the Hamas. Just like how not every Israeli is behind their government's actions. The difference is that the Hamas have no problem sacrificing their own people to gain an advantage. Which is why they stick their missile launchers in densely populated civilian centres.
If the Israeli's don't attack because of too many civilians, they keep their missiles.
If the Israeli's DO attack, civilians get killed and the Hamas proclaim to the world what monsters the Israeli's are, while laughingly launching other missiles into a city full of Israeli civilians.
STRESS
The confusion caused when one's mind
overrides the body's basic
desire to choke the living shit out of
some jerk who desperately needs it
Most countries. It's a very common tactic during urban warfare. It's not like they pick the house with the family in it, the way it usually happens is the sniper scopes out a good place to set up (broad view, hidden, easily defedable, etc.) and the the unit goes in there. I reckon in this incident the house was occupied and the soldiers decided they are going to set in there anyway and not go look for a diffrent home, and you can figure out the rest.
Just saying.
Which is exactly why the tactics used by Israel are not going to ever work (regardless of what you think of their moral justification). The only way to solve this is to make the Palestinians not want to lob rockets and bombs at Israelis. Bombing them back into the Middle Ages is not going to do that, it will just radicalize yet another generation of Palestinians.
At this point it's getting ridiculous that the international community is allowing Israel to use these tactics because from past experience it is well known that they don't work and do nothing to solve the underlying problem. It also shows the incredible hypocrisy of the international community, since when the same thing happened in Kosovo, Serbia was bombed and troops put on the ground to make sure the muslims were allowed to live in their homes and stay in their land without fear of a superior military pushing them around however they saw fit based on some historical claim to the land.
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 01:27 PM ----------
Well it shouldn't be (although I highly doubt it is). It's beyond barbaric.
a sample movie about who is Hamans that control Gazza.
youtube.com/watch?v=BUaTMr6bpuc
Very nice false equivalency. Try to learn more about the entire situation there, and why exactly it is that Hamas supporters are among the populace themselves. Here's a hint: a good part of the people do not hate Hamas.
I've already responded to this, and why Israel continuing to put pressure on the people to try to make them give up Hamas will not work. Scroll up.It's pretty rough trying to fight a war cleanly when the other side openly encourages martyrdom. There was a video that Liara linked earlier in the thread, that has one of the leaders of Hamas(maybe THE leader? I don't remember) essentially saying that they were "a nation of martyrdom". I honestly don't know what the average Palestinian thinks about this, but their leaders sure seem to think that their lives are cheap. This doesn't bother you at all?
Don't do selective reading. I never once said that the Palestinians were justified in their attacks. I did, however, say that Israel overall has a greater hand in crimes against humanity and because it is in a position of power has a greater responsibility in giving up some to resolve the conflict. This isn't the 60's. If Israel shows some signs of weakness, the rest of the Middle East isn't going to descend on them intent on destruction.I'm also a little confused. When Hamas launches rocket strikes into civilian territory for weeks on end, and then finally Israel counterattacks, Hamas is vindicated? How do you figure that?
And what exactly was the wikipedia article you were quoting? I'm not questioning the use of wikipedia, since you also included the source numbers, but without putting out the link to the actual article its not possible to follow up on what you said.
What exactly is the military function of an art museum? Or a radio station, when the military has their own communication methods?
those images of the IDF using children as shields for their soldiers could come straight from Poland under the nazis. absolutely barbaric. no doubt well get the usual oh it didnt happen, its all fake, the work of anti semites etc but i think enough people are wakening up to whats really going on in gaza now to see through their lies.
Okay? There is no exact analogue in the US so I'm picking a situation that was very similar. 74 people died in Waco when the FBI stormed Koresh's compound - many of them women and children - and there was no incredible backlash against the government like you suggested there would be. I'm fully aware that the Palestinians support Hamas, so I'm not sure where you're going with this.
Pretty cheap retort honestly, but I went ahead and reread your posts in this thread, and you know what? I didn't see you say a damn thing about how cheaply Hamas treats the lives of the people it governs. Or the many, many statements by Hamas leaders approving martyrdom and that they are a nation of martyrs. So I'm asking: do you find this acceptable?
If you really think that, I guess I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. I will say this though; It doesn't matter at this point who's the most culpable in this conflict. There is no international power that's going to come in and set the two sides down and award points for being the most humane, or punishments for doing bad things. If you really think that's how the world works, you're pretty naive.
Trying to pin the entire burden of responsibility on Israel is just silly. Both sides have options and choices they can make. If Hamas really wants peace, and the Palestinians really want peace as you say, they'd cease firing rockets into Israel and cease attacking Israeli soldiers. They'd invite international observers in, and completely stop all hostilities and watch the international pressure REALLY bear down on Israel. If Hamas had any chance of achieving anything militarily, I could see there being justification for fighting back, but they don't.
The truth is that they'd rather kill Jews than live with them at peace - this isn't my opinion, their leaders say this sort of thing on a daily basis. What hope is there for peace, when one side openly states that they want to wipe the other side out?
Ooh, ooh, can I quote from the same article too?
During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shields, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.[10]
In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.[11]
Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."[12] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.[13]
The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.[14]
On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation.[15] Local eyewitnesses later confirmed that Hamas militants had fired at Israeli troops from adjacent a UN school for girls where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge.[16][17] Forty-three Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire.[18] Israel accused Hamas of using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.[19]
The Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, an Israeli NGO with close ties to the IDF,[20] accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings—including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives’ houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones".[21][22] The IDF and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs released a video accusing Hamas in a systematic use of civilians as human shield, including several photoes of Hamas militants using children as human shield and two videoes from the Gaza War (2008-2009) showing Hamas militants grabbing children, allegdly using them as a human shield.[23] The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.[24]
no thats the version of the truth you "victimised" israelis like to portray. the truth is that you had peace until the IDF killed a 13 year old palestinian boy on Nov 8th. every time there has been a deal the israelis have broken it. you lie and cheat and play the victim card. you wall people up in a ghetto, brutalise them and then provoke a reaction because you dont want peace. you want their land and now you want the massive gas and oil reserves recently discovered off the gaza coast. is it coincidence this all started up just weeks before the UN was due to vote on palestinian state hood? ofc it wasnt.
Michael Ben-Yair, Attorney General of Israel, 1993-1996 (in Ha'aretz):
"The Intifada is the Palestinian's people's war of national liberation. We [Israel] enthusiastically chose to become a colonialist society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the Occupied Territories, engaging in theft and funding justification for all these activities.. we [Israel] established an apartheid regime."