I personally don't care if they're equal or not, I and a lot of other people want to be able to raid BOTH again.
Oh and this man raised a point that I'd completely forgotten about, it's not that big a deal in the absence of reforging, but there was 10man loot that was your BiS piece in some tiers, but it was mostly 25man loot that was your BiS, not because of the higher iLvl, that had slight bearing, but without reforging, the stats on a piece of gear mattered A LOT.
A lot of the 25man gear was just straight up itemised better.
Last edited by Oxyra; 2012-11-20 at 03:21 PM.
Updating my signature from my WoD characters.
Yikes.
Probably better than you, probably also a casual these days. Go on, keep being elitist.
Returning to the model where 10/25 have separate lockouts seems like a pretty solid choice. I was a 10 man raider at the end of WotLK when it was announced how Cata was "supposed" to work. I remember how many PUGs were lurking around ALL THE TIME. 25s pugged for 10s, 10s pugged for 25s - MY guild pugged to do 25s, it wasn't hard. The community in general was way more active with each other. It's a very positive thing for the "PUG" community to be that active again.
The only argument people have against it is, "but I'm forced to do both now!" (not true, people QQ about LFR also) and "It's easier for 25 mans to do both! >" - Good, that's the point now.
Keep gear the same, who cares.
Yeah, pretty much the opposite of what you said.In 25s you can afford to have a few deaths and you can even pull if you're backfilling a few players. Both really make you stop in your tracks on 10s. In 25, it's easier to fade back into the group if you're still not 100% confident in what you're doing. In 10s, it's harder to be a wallflower.
There is a reason they created LFR as 25 only. Less responsibility per player = easier completion.
That's not the reason. It's to have shorter queue times, because both, 10 man and 25 man, need 2 tanks. But 10 man has 3 healers and 5 DPS, where as 25 man has 6 healers and 17 DPS.
And now I must admit, even though I opened the thread, it's to fast getting new replies. I lost it somewhere on page 14.
As for the shart that was posted, you have to remember that those number are from kills over the whole tier/expansion. Tis tier/expansion is only out for 2 months. I am pretty sure we will see more kills and so get an overall larger pool of players wo participiated in raiding if we wait another few months - at least until this tier ends.
As a 25 raider I don't want or need another reward. Raiding 25 is not a chore for me it is the game for me.
Hi Sephurik
Not even once have I even wished 'I was that good'. Honestly. I am just in the game to enjoy it, not to be competitive really.
And yes, I looked at those people, but not in awe and they aren't the reason I got hooked. If I looked it would only be to find out what it was that the person was wearing or riding. The fact that they have it and I probaly never will does not change a thing, nor do I have any desire to be like that person.And anyone who says they never looked up to people who wore all the amazing gear, had Invincible/Mim's head and rode around on it, Ashes in BC even, you looked up to those people with a level of awe, those were the reasons you got hooked on this game, you wanted to be like that person.
Frankly this says more about you than any other person playing.
Whenever I am witness to a realm first or world first I may congratulate the person, but a minute after that it's out of my system really and I'm continuing my game.
Like I said I have no desire to be the best in the game or compete with others, I mainly play to enjoy myself.
And with me there are tons of people that feel the same way...
That was a blue post SPECIFICALLY about LFR.
There was a blue post about 25man and 10man NORMAL/HEROIC MODES that stated in not many uncertain terms, that 25man was considered to be the harder form of raiding.
But Cata lasted an entire expansion with a 30% nerf, and still had under half the active players that Wrath did (with subsidies to prevent overlapping during Wrath).
Maybe this expansion's data is slightly biased, but the Cata data isn't.
---------- Post added 2012-11-20 at 11:31 PM ----------
You're one of a small number.
If everyone thought like you, major sports players wouldn't get paid the amount they do.
Also, signatures like yours piss me off SO MUCH when you can't click each little character square to see their armories.
Updating my signature from my WoD characters.
Yikes.
Probably better than you, probably also a casual these days. Go on, keep being elitist.
That's a very false assumption, and some 25-man guilds just don't have an effective leadership core in place. One of the greatest strengths of my particular 25-man raid team is the leadership structure. A good 25-man leadership team needs to involve about five or so raid leaders.
- 1 person to lead the overall raid. Calling incoming mechanics for everyone to pay attention to. This job is actually the easiest.
- 2 raid leaders to lead the DPS. They give the DPS assignments for any fights that involve adds, target switching, alternate locations (such as Spiritbinder), and any other factors that would be DPS-centered.
- 1-2 raid leaders to lead the healers. They give the healers their healing assignments (who's healing the tanks and who's focusing on the raid healing), give positioning assignments (for any fight that requires the raid to split up, such as Elegon), set up cooldown rotations (for fights such as Will of the Emperor or Feng), and if needed can select which healers are used to swap roles (if fewer healers are required for a particular fight to meet a DPS requirement, which happened quite a bit in Dragon Soul heroic).
- 1-2 raid leaders should be tanks. It is more ideal to have both of your tanks be effective raid leaders. Therefore, they basically lead themselves and it is one less aspect for the rest of the raid to be worried about.
The average 25-man guild doesn't set up a leadership structure in this manner. If led properly, 25-man is actually EASIER to lead because the division of responsibility is a lower ratio than in 10-man. The average 10-man is led by 1-2 people. An effective 25-man is led by 5-6 people. For a well-structured 25-man guild, leadership is actually the lowest of problems. All of my previously covered points are far higher on the list of issues.
Fenixdown (retail) : level 60 priest. 2005-2015, 2022-???? (returned!)
Fenixdown (classic) : level 70 priest. 2019 - present
No, LFR is 25 because it's easier to fill them automatically that way. It's also not true that in 25s you can "fade back into group if you're still not 100% confident", not in any fight that actually matters at least. 25 mans leave much less room for mistakes than 10s simply because in any fight that matters, wasting a battle res to a stupid mistake means you won't kill the boss, and because if everyone in a 25 man raid fails in more than once in 25 tries the boss will never die (in 10 mans that's 1 in 10, much less strict).
You mean this one?
I have a hard time remembering, considering how many times they've flat out stated that 25s take less skill to execute than 10s.25 allows for a more forgiving experience should errors be made by individual players
Keep dreaming about your fantasy quote where 25 is somehow harder than 10.
Also this.
Last edited by Espe; 2012-11-20 at 03:37 PM.
I know quite a few people myself included, who think pretty much exactly like him... at least in terms of gaming. I have very little interest in what other guilds / professional players are doing... I don't know that many people who do, especially if they don't pvp much which is where a lot of the interest in watching other people play really kicks in.
In response to the OPs question: We don't.
This is absolutely true but only applies to content where the burden is minimal on all raid members to execute well and coordinate etc. The more coordination required and the higher the necessary level of play the more difficult 25 man becomes simply because there are more people in the raid, more chances to make a mistake etc. It's harder to get 25 people to understand a fight or watch their debuffs, harder to heal a random target out of 25 potential targets on short notice, harder to move in a coordinated way and so on.
25 man is easier at the LFR difficulty because you can have half the raid die and still stand a reasonable chance of beating an encounter as long as there's some healers and tanks left, give or take the enrage timer. That's less likely to be true in 10 man. The same logic really doesn't apply to heroic raiding, and neither does the quote there.
The things that made fights like Heroic Rag or Spine harder on 25 man were mostly related to the number of people in the raid on an encounter with 0 margin for error. Losing someone on those fights was a wipe on both 10 and 25, but it's just more problematic to keep everyone alive and performing at their best with way more people in the raid. I doubt we're ever going to see an extremely hard boss (LK/Yogg/M'uru/Rag difficulty) that is comparable across the two formats. We do regularly see easier bosses where difficulty is comparable or even harder on 10 though because the personal responsibility element becomes more significant when tuning is less tight on 25.
I never mentioned anything about all this stuff.
I said that 25 man is "the superior option for the average raider, it just isn't superior enough for the people that matter - those who raid lead."
i.e. why on earth would 5 or 6 people go to all that trouble to do 25 mans when they can just go 10 man and not have to bother with all the extra, with only 1 of them doing it? Most players I genuinely believe don't care much - they just want to improve their toons with the mnimum of fuss. For the average raider 10 man, 25 man, doesn't matter. For those who lead raids, 10 man means probably not leading any more - yay!
Just add "Search players" button to 25man raids and u can fill rest of ur spots with randoms. 25mans are tuned for 15players and 10 bodies laying @ floor.