PVP Power healing nerf incoming for Ret, justified?

[Kezotar]

I play arena with a retri and all I can say, he's doing the same dmg as me, if not sometimes more and doing awful alot of healing. What I more hope on is that they nerf boomkin druid, he literally healed himself through the burst.

[Palatinus]

as they realize that 3 HP WoGs are healing for 5% of our health.

Oh yeah its only the start of the expansion, can't wait till SW ticks for higher than 3x hp wog

I play arena with a retri and all I can say, he's doing the same dmg as me, if not sometimes more and doing awful alot of healing. What I more hope on is that they nerf boomkin druid, he literally healed himself through the burst.

This depends a lot on the game length though, if the game lasts 20 - 40 seconds...sure he will do the same dmg as you, and also a lot of healing during the cd period. Make the game length 5-10 minutes though and its a whole different story.

So apparently execution sentence can be dispelled on ptr... Clap, calp blizzard!

Be thankful it wasn't wings and take holy prism like most people do. Then in 5.2 they can nerf holy prism and make wings dispellable

[Mefistophelis]

If they go through with this I'm retiring . This is the last straw . I'm trying to be logical here and accept that casters can kill me in 3-4 secs ... I'm trying to be logical here and accept that most RBGs don't want me and want warriors or dks ... I'm trying to accept the thing that I can't beat any combo of shaman and warlock ... and for the past 6 years playing retribution and being the underdog but for 1 week that we were op .

[Palatinus]

If they go through with this I'm retiring . This is the last straw .

I think a lot of people are, including me. Either that or they will be re-rolling if they haven't already. The balance issues left from the beta was unacceptable but thought I would wait to see what 5.1 brought, 5.1 doesn't look great but with this change there is just no point playing ret anymore.

'Funny' how the two things that blizzard say they balance around, 3v3 and RBGs, is the two things ret is least viable in at the moment, 5s is probably close, and 2s doesn't matter but at least you can make something work. I find it weird how they say that they have 34 specs to balance in pvp, yet I see no attempt of making tanks viable in arena (I agree they shouldn't but still) nor has there been any changes to make any other spec but prot warrior good for tanking rbgs. I'd prefer the TBC way of X spec for each class, at least that way you'd know whether they actually intend for ret to be any good and we wouldn't be wasting time trying to make our desired spec work....

[Tangra]

So apparently execution sentence can be dispelled on ptr... Clap, calp blizzard!

Lol, a laughably stupid change, good thing most of us take prism.

[akon]

I guess its Rift time ....

[trystero]

"Customized" does not mean "viable". In the previous talent designs (i.e. the "trees"), there were a number of talents that you were required to take in order to be viable, as well as quite a few 'trap' talents that looked good, but would really be wasted (depending on your chosen role). The current design is better, because you would essentially have to completely skip a talent tier in order to make a 'wrong choice'. I'm not saying the talents on each tier are equal, but the theory is sound.



I honestly don't PvP much, so my general knowledge of Paladin PvP issues come from these forums. If something is a common trend, I usually consider it an issue with merit (I take that with a grain of salt, because everything on the internet tends to be a bit exaggerated).

However, I do know that the 'defensive cooldowns' enumerated in the forum thread is a bit bunk. I'm going to look at this from a completely unrestricted point of view.

Divine Shield, quite honestly, needs to be removed from the game. A total immunity ability that also enables you to still act? Ice Block is more balanced in the fact that you render yourself unable to act. But as of now, it's not something that can be utilized offensively due to the 50% reduced damage caused while it's active.
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The rest of your post looks spot-on (and BoP is really only useful on clothie partners, and Lay on Hands isn't useable in Arenas), but the problem with removing Divine Shield is that then rets have absolutely no defensive salvation. Outside of divine protection, which in its current state is really only useful against magic damage, there's no way to counter big offensive cooldowns (teammates can kite, and the ret can stun, but all classes can do something like that). Rets are already one of the most trained classes in Arena, and that's with full knowledge of an 8 second immunity during which the paladin will be able to heal himself considerably. Teams know that and don't care...take away bubble and, wow, rets are looking a lot like DKs now.

[Malthanis]

The rest of your post looks spot-on (and BoP is really only useful on clothie partners, and Lay on Hands isn't useable in Arenas), but the problem with removing Divine Shield is that then rets have absolutely no defensive salvation. Outside of divine protection, which in its current state is really only useful against magic damage, there's no way to counter big offensive cooldowns (teammates can kite, and the ret can stun, but all classes can do something like that). Rets are already one of the most trained classes in Arena, and that's with full knowledge of an 8 second immunity during which the paladin will be able to heal himself considerably. Teams know that and don't care...take away bubble and, wow, rets are looking a lot like DKs now.

There would need to be something added to the class as a whole if DS was removed. To be completely honest, I was a bit hyperbolic when I said to remove it entirely. However, I just don't see it as a very "Retribution" style spell. The "relentless crusader of the Light" archetype doesn't sit well with an ability that halves their damage output.

Perhaps Divine Intervention could make a comeback in this way: converts X% of incoming damage to healing. It would still render you immune to damage, but you would still suffer from CCs. Depending on the actual value of X, there would even be room for another defensive CD for Ret.

[Tangra]

There would need to be something added to the class as a whole if DS was removed. To be completely honest, I was a bit hyperbolic when I said to remove it entirely. However, I just don't see it as a very "Retribution" style spell. The "relentless crusader of the Light" archetype doesn't sit well with an ability that halves their damage output.

Perhaps Divine Intervention could make a comeback in this way: converts X% of incoming damage to healing. It would still render you immune to damage, but you would still suffer from CCs. Depending on the actual value of X, there would even be room for another defensive CD for Ret.

Yes, with the plan to make PvP power only improve healing for actual healers, some percentage-based healing would be welcome. It also always felt somehow logical to me for Templar's Verdict to heal for a portion of the damage dealt, somewhat like Divine Storm originally did.

Another thing that has always driven me nuts about Ret is how few reflective abilities we have (even Eye for an Eye is gone now). Retribution is all about hurting those who have hurt others and dealing justice, so it seems very appropriate. Here is my idea:

Two abilities on a 1 min cooldown, Damnation/Absolution.

Damnation - Removes up to 3 positive effects from an enemy and stores them until they are released upon a friendly target with Absolution.
Absolution - Removes up to 3 negative effects from a friendly target and stores them until they are released upon an enemy with Damnation.

It might need to be tweaked, of course, to not steal incredibly powerful things like lets say Ice Block and immunities in general. But other than that it should give Ret a bit of unpredictability and versatility that it has always sorely needed.

[Malthanis]

Two abilities on a 1 min cooldown, Damnation/Absolution.

Damnation - Removes up to 3 positive effects from an enemy and stores them until they are released upon a friendly target with Absolution.
Absolution - Removes up to 3 negative effects from a friendly target and stores them until they are released upon an enemy with Damnation.

It might need to be tweaked, of course, to not steal incredibly powerful things like lets say Ice Block and immunities in general. But other than that it should give Ret a bit of unpredictability and versatility that it has always sorely needed.

Shared cool-downs, I'm assuming? As for what it targets, the Spellsteal list would work well for it. Would they perform their steal-and-grant action on the same cast?

As for the topic of healing, I do think some form of passive healing would be a great idea for Retribution. I played around with Rift for a bit, and one of the souls for the Cleric class has the ability to splash healing from their melee damage (similar to the Glyph of the Battle Healer). I think something similar would be good for Ret. However, the only issue I can see would be the numbers balance. Too low, and nobody cares about it. Too high, and Ret becomes a 'required' raiding class.

[Paq]

x2 ret palas in arena drives me nuts, in cases like this it is rather OP as they are just healing each other via selfless healer and enjoying the 100% effectiveness, apart from this the nerf doesnt seem to appropriate for rets

[Demetrion]

If they go through with this I'm retiring . This is the last straw . I'm trying to be logical here and accept that casters can kill me in 3-4 secs ... I'm trying to be logical here and accept that most RBGs don't want me and want warriors or dks ... I'm trying to accept the thing that I can't beat any combo of shaman and warlock ... and for the past 6 years playing retribution and being the underdog but for 1 week that we were op .

Whole WotLK ret was more than viable in both 2s and 3s.
Whole Cata ret was rank 1 viable as you can see with Vanguards who played it as ret/rogue/priest and ret/hunter/priest. Not to mention triple DPS action, so your arguments of being underdog isn't really valuable.

As for the nerf, it will hit ret and it will hit it hard. We'll see how will it roll. Hopefully they will adjust PVP power scaling for healing spells of hybrid classes accordingly.

[Deleted]

Hopefully they will adjust PVP power scaling for healing spells of hybrid classes accordingly.

umm... no they wont, the whole reason for this nerf is the development team feel hybrids are double dipping too much in pvp with pvp power, GCs tweet further reinforces that supposition.

Basically when this hits, rets ans shamans will be in deep doo doo.

[Demetrion]

umm... no they wont, the whole reason for this nerf is the development team feel hybrids are double dipping too much in pvp with pvp power, GCs tweet further reinforces that supposition.

Basically when this hits, rets ans shamans will be in deep doo doo.

That's why I'm saying they shouldn't completely remove hybrids from PVP power healing. They could just adjust every spell as they are doing with Spell Power with % based scaling.

[Reith]

Whole WotLK ret was more than viable in both 2s and 3s.
Whole Cata ret was rank 1 viable as you can see with Vanguards who played it as ret/rogue/priest and ret/hunter/priest. Not to mention triple DPS action, so your arguments of being underdog isn't really valuable.

Mentioning one extremely exceptional player and claiming that extremely exceptional player getting gladiator makes the spec viable, is a very, very flawed argument. He has access to other exceptional players of other classes as well, so that comparison is not fair at all.

[Clarke]

With frost DK's being able to cleave targets with their main spell, and warriors being able to do alot more burst than us, AND with this nerf incoming I really can't see why people would want a Ret over these other options .

[Palatinus]

i really can't see why people would want a ret over these other options .

Because we have:
Plate
Heals
OP Burst
Bubble

[Clarke]

Because we have:
Plate
Heals
OP Burst
Bubble

can't sense if its sarcasim or not :P, I find that bubble has been given out to many other classes in other variations, not that im complaining. and with the 50% dmg reduction during it, half the time its used as a 2nd trinket and taken off by the pally to try to get a kill. Aswell im kinda annoyed that people keep on bringing that up as a advantage.... I mean I think it's one of the only spells that hasn't changed since vanilla.. I would not be pissed at all if they somewhat tweeked it or replaced it with something else.

[Palatinus]

can't sense if its sarcasim or not :P, I find that bubble has been given out to many other classes in other variations, not that im complaining. and with the 50% dmg reduction during it, half the time its used as a 2nd trinket and taken off by the pally to try to get a kill. Aswell im kinda annoyed that people keep on bringing that up as a advantage.... I mean I think it's one of the only spells that hasn't changed since vanilla.. I would not be pissed at all if they somewhat tweeked it or replaced it with something else.

I wasn't being completely serious, it was mostly a joke, but if I had crossed off bubble then wth is left....

[Tangra]

Shared cool-downs, I'm assuming? As for what it targets, the Spellsteal list would work well for it. Would they perform their steal-and-grant action on the same cast?

As for the topic of healing, I do think some form of passive healing would be a great idea for Retribution. I played around with Rift for a bit, and one of the souls for the Cleric class has the ability to splash healing from their melee damage (similar to the Glyph of the Battle Healer). I think something similar would be good for Ret. However, the only issue I can see would be the numbers balance. Too low, and nobody cares about it. Too high, and Ret becomes a 'required' raiding class.

I think the 1 min cd should trigger when one cycle of taking and giving is complete, once something is taken it will be stored until it is released, at which point the ability will go on cooldown. So, you can redistribute right away to trigger the cooldown, and get to use it again in 1 min, or delay for a more opportune time such as popping cooldowns.

I would love to see Glyph of Battle healer turned into a baseline ability that can also heal the paladin. The numbers can be adjusted so it doesn't become too good for Prot self-healing. For example the ability could have an increased effect when Templar's Verdict is used. I don't think it's very likely that it will make Ret required for raiding, since melee and Ret in particular are not in very high demand, especially in 10 mans, but numbers can be adjusted if needed if it heals too much in PvE: they have already coded a tag that changes healing in PvP and PvE zones, so they could just use that to balance it.