Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Valeron]

I've been trying to get into Rift, I just can't do it. But then I quit MoP two days after it released. I think I just don't like that traditional style of gameplay anymore.

[Fencers]

Playing the game this way just leaves a shallow experience...

I go back and do events from time to time. Enjoy them on occassion. However, its not a draw for me in games the desire to imagine myself a wizard on an epic journey or similar sentiments.

A shallow experience is usually one which lacks intricacy of rules, statistics, logistics, design, artistry and so on for me.

I don't really care about the igneous stone [yes, i get the callback], Sylvanas, Zelda, Queen Melia, Mako's parents or the dead girl in Ico. Just gameplay and mechanics.

haha, mini-expansion... were they always this smug or did something happen over at Anet? Hostile takeover? Aliens?

They weren't really like this before. Anet devs were blunt, sometimes obtuse on wikitalk or gwg. And it varied by which dev was giving out what info-- Regina, Izzy, Eric, etc.

They sorta became... jerks after developing GW2.

I bought Rift the day before yesterday. Even though I'm only level 13, I love it. Thanks to you Fencers. I've been watching you (write about Rift). o.O

Rift is a pretty good game. Really well crafted in areas but also saddled by the traditional MMO model in other areas.

In a way that is Rift's strength and flaw: its a very standard MMO.

Rift could very well be the most 'complete' MMO made in the style of EQ without actually being EQ. Yet much of what makes the game remarkable isn't gameplay. Its the company that develops Rift. Trion are superb developers.

It's an odd beast to wrestle sometimes.

I've been trying to get into Rift, I just can't do it. But then I quit MoP two days after it released. I think I just don't like that traditional style of gameplay anymore.

Do you think you ever did? Like truly were excited for gameplay based on a series of dice rolls and statistical outcomes?

Josh Allen of Tankspot was talking about this recently in a few different places. Essentially saying a lot of people don't really like hotkey MMOs. They sorta just go along with 'em. For whatever reason, natch.

[Deleted]

I've been trying to get into Rift, I just can't do it. But then I quit MoP two days after it released. I think I just don't like that traditional style of gameplay anymore.

Im on the same boat as you, tried tanking in another mmo a couple od days ago loved it because i miss that role, but i find those types of mmos to be a bit static after playing gw2. Most probably will try rift again since im hearing good things about it.

Mini-expansion dear lord Anet what happened to you? Stop this hype bullshit you are seriously starting to piss off your most ardent fans.

[zito]

Rift is a pretty good game. Really well crafted in areas but also saddled by the traditional MMO model in other areas.

In a way that is Rift's strength and flaw: its a very standard MMO.

Rift could very well be the most 'complete' MMO made in the style of EQ without actually being EQ. Yet much of what makes the game remarkable isn't gameplay. Its the company that develops Rift. Trion are superb developers.

It's an odd beast to wrestle sometimes.

I really wish I could get back into rift but even with the expansion I know what endgame is going to be.

I just wish there was a bit more to do at max level besides the overall dungeon - raid thing like every other mmo is doing. Player housing is a step in the right direction but we needz more.

[Scyth]

I recently logged in SWToR and WoW ( I received a 10 day trial) and I have to say GW2 has spoiled me so much haha. Graphics and everything looks so weird to me at the moment, and the fact that I cannot dodge is killing me!

[Bugg]

same here, a friend sent me WoW Resurrection scroll, but I just could not cope with everything in there... too old, too many add-ons that I had to download, and set up, I could not pick items with F key, no dodging, etc.
damn you GW2!

[Deleted]

mini-expansion...


loooooooooool

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 05:23 PM ----------

My question to you all is, whats your "/played" if it exists in GW2, how many hours do you play a day? etc.

I've had loads of fun playing with my elementalist even after I reached level 80.

but after their latest crap I'm kinda done with Anet and GW2 (for now). It's still a fun game nonetheless. and the 60 bucks was totally worth the fun I had with it.

I'll add a screenshot of my time later since apparently there's some new update

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 05:52 PM ----------

here it is http://i.imgur.com/XoLSQ.jpg


Mod edit: Thumbnails, sweetie.

[Valeron]

Do you think you ever did? Like truly were excited for gameplay based on a series of dice rolls and statistical outcomes?

Possibly. The only reason why I stuck with wow for so long was the people I played with. Without them I wouldn't have lasted a month in that game. One of my issues with rift/wow and the like is the combat, way too static for my tastes. I grew up on action games (such as mortal kombat) so that is probably why I feel that way about traditional mmo combat.

[Kelesti]

Possibly. The only reason why I stuck with wow for so long was the people I played with. Without them I wouldn't have lasted a month in that game. One of my issues with rift/wow and the like is the combat, way too static for my tastes. I grew up on action games (such as mortal kombat) so that is probably why I feel that way about traditional mmo combat.

Playing for the social aspect (or for some people, the gear aspect) doesn't really make a person excited for stat-based hotbar MMO's, though.

If your friends were sitting down bro'ing out with a BroCube playing some MarioKart DoubleDash, and this is what you're doing with them, it's no less of a social thing. But once you move past the social aspect (or the incentive of making your personal avatar more awesome with bigger numbers), do you like the core gameplay as a standalone?

[Rukh]

So if you remove all the fun things from an MMO is it still fun. What a weird question.

[Valeron]

Well my issue with mmos, and this includes GW2 as well, is that for the most part they are just a combat simulator. I want a world to play in, to shape, to be a part of.

I suppose I just want a well made sandbox.

[Kelesti]

So if you remove all the fun things from an MMO is it still fun. What a weird question.

On the contrary. I'm asking, do you enjoy playing a hotbar style RPG, and actually enjoy the mechanics and playstyle that accompany being a hotbar style RPG.

Judging by your response, that answer's obviously a "no".

---------- Post added 2012-11-22 at 11:18 AM ----------

Well my issue with mmos, and this includes GW2 as well, is that for the most part they are just a combat simulator. I want a world to play in, to shape, to be a part of.

I suppose I just want a well made sandbox.

So... EVE?

[Valeron]

So... EVE?

no

/10 char

[Kelesti]

no

/10 char

Alright. That was just my suggestion of a well made sandbox. *shrug*

[Valeron]

A little off topic but I do like the tie in with Dust 514 and EVE. I just wish it wasn't PS3 exclusive. If EVE had much more to do with a personal avatar rather than just a ship I'd be much more interested.

[Fencers]

One of my issues with rift/wow and the like is the combat, way too static for my tastes. I grew up on action games (such as mortal kombat) so that is probably why I feel that way about traditional mmo combat.

Indeed. I am aware of your feeling on that style of combat & gameplay. But I guess I was using it to ask a deeper question of gameplay Kel framed much better in post #30467, paragraph two.

This is what I was touching on in a thread on the Rift forum as well. MMO gamers have just become accustomed to this idea that the game itself *is not fun*.

They'll tell you that straight up too ("If you remove the gear grind, why would I even play?") even though I don't think they fully understand what they're saying sometimes.

This is interesting and I was just having a provate conversation with Alyssa on the strutre of gameplay in gear/stat based MMOs. Specifically on the design used to incentivize content outside of enjoyment.

The conversation was begun: here.

Where my basic response was;

What meaningful content would you replace it with and how would it progress your character

Why not just have progression through the content itself be meaningful? Such that being able to clear encounter 020 means one is far more skilled than those unable to master anything beyond encounter 018.

Personally speaking, the only reason I progression raid is for the enjoyment and challenge of the content. The gear is more of a nuisance to me because the only function toughness serves is as entry key to more of content I enjoy.

The "puzzle" of an encounter is the meaningful gameplay of an MMO. The genre is a poor medium for delivering most other types of gameplay.

and

This was true 5-10 years ago, encounters these days are about as complex as they can be without alienating 95% of it's player base

That's just poor handling of design by various MMOs.

There can be a structure of meaningful, skill based progression without resorting the stat/gear checks. One wouldn't even need to resort to multi-mode instancing to accomplish this either [easy mode/hardmode/super duper hard mode]. As it can be done with existing game tropes of modern MMOs.

Let us say for the sake of example we had a model like this:

- Players are limited to access content only by their skill threshold.
- There are differing levels of challenge provided in content let's call it; CR [challenge rating]

We can apply CR to different types of content in both a macro view; e.x., mundane questing is generally CR1. Or a micro view; e.x., some quests are CR1 some are CR5. Others may be CR3, CR 10, etc.

We already have this in MMOs now. You pick up a quest or walk in a dungeon and these are tuned for character level XX. In many cases the UI specifies the exact minimum character level needed.

CR would function no differently. Rather than gating the ability to feasibly complete a CR50 encounter via character level [or gear / stat thresholds], the players themselves can choose the challenge level they are able to handle.

The issue is one almost entirely of structure in EQ derived MMOs. Where it is not, familiarity to a vulgar audience is the issue; seen for example in Secret World, Fallen Earth or Guild Wars 2.

I love most aspects of MMO's. I like the worlds, the stuff to do, the quasi-social aspects, and yes somewhat the character-advancement aspects. I especially like the feeling of permanence...not always an easy concept to go into detail on. What I don't like is the fact that it seems like developers - as much as the players - have come to accept that the gameplay of MMO's doesn't need to be fun.

Yes, I would agree with this almost totally.

In some regard the genre is shackled by what I can best describe as "comfort gaming".

To reach back to my previous statement about Rift-- it's strength and flaw is that it is a standard MMO made in the well worn heritage of Everquest. And while Rift or World of Warcraft very well may be the most expertly created representations of that gameplay style; they are nonetheless very familiar games.

So... EVE?

Another POV here is that I would say Eve is the quintessential stat driven MMO. Even more so than ye old M59/EQ and the descendant post-World of Warcraft MMOs. Even more so a stat driven MMO than sandbox. Where non-linearity and freedom of path are intrinsic to the sandbox model. Non-linearity and freedom of path are not necessity antithetical to stat driven MMOs.

[Lane]

This is what I was touching on in a thread on the Rift forum as well. MMO gamers have just become accustomed to this idea that the game itself *is not fun*.

They'll tell you that straight up too ("If you remove the gear grind, why would I even play?") even though I don't think they fully understand what they're saying sometimes.

I love most aspects of MMO's. I like the worlds, the stuff to do, the quasi-social aspects, and yes somewhat the character-advancement aspects. I especially like the feeling of permanence...not always an easy concept to go into detail on. What I don't like is the fact that it seems like developers - as much as the players - have come to accept that the gameplay of MMO's doesn't need to be fun.

Most MMO versions of end game are not fun to me. I've never understood the mentality of the player who must be max level ASAP to start on the "real content". WTF was the rest of the game? They've basically skipped 90% of it to get to the point where they can run the same half dozen dungeons repeatedly.

Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.

[Fencers]

Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.

This is a conflict of niche gaming models gaining popularity.

MMORPGs have historically been closer to Roll playing Games, not Role or Role playing games. The genre as it evolved from Everquest and earlier MUDs were not necessarily predicated on selling you an adventure by experience. But an adventure by dice rolls. For example, link.

You expectations as a player of sRPGs and adventure games are perhaps directly in conflict with the gameplay of many MMOs.

I have said this before, but the experience of playing World of Warcraft [example] is based on the player being super exciting/interested in manipulating the outcome of dice rolls in a rule set intended to work against them.

There isn't a single way to express the gameplay in World of Warcraft [or Eq/TOR/Rift/TSW] that is not based around influencing under the hood dice rolls. This design conceit is so thorough and basic to the very reason one is playing the game that in the case of World of Warcraft [example redux], Blizzard expertly reveal almost the entirety of the game to players by level 2.

That isn't to say all MMORPGs are following that model. Though many of have and that is the actual gameplay-- not the adventure or story. Those are incidental aspects of the game as a result of like, populating the world.


In strictly gameplay terms, this is what you think you are doing:




This is what the gameplay is actually expressing:




It is natural that some players are keenly interested is what is essentially a self creating myth.

It is also reasonable that some players are keenly interested in what is essentially a numbers puzzle.

[Deleted]

Most MMO versions of end game are not fun to me. I've never understood the mentality of the player who must be max level ASAP to start on the "real content". WTF was the rest of the game? They've basically skipped 90% of it to get to the point where they can run the same half dozen dungeons repeatedly.

Maybe it's because I come from playing a lot of console & PC single player RPG and adventure games. I enjoy the leveling process, the story progression, seeing/exploring each new area, doing all the side quests, trying to complete everything, etc. When a game boils down to extreme repetitiveness is when I start to rapidly lose interest. I really don't get the appeal of grinds in any capacity, but then again I don't get why people don't enjoy leveling so I guess it's just a different mindset. I usually end up doing the grind because MMOs especially make it mandatory for character progression, but I don't enjoy it. I'd sooner level a new alt from 1 to 80, that would actually be fun for me.

I believe the problem starts in difficulty and required coordination.
While leveling in MMOs is fun for the most time, it lacks any kind of difficulty in 90% of the time. Thus, i think people who want to get to endgame are mostly people looking for the greater challenges und coordinated groupplay.

[Azuri]

In strictly gameplay terms, this is what you think you are doing:




This is what the gameplay is actually expressing:

Interesting and a good visualization. Picture #1 is what we think we are doing in our MMORPG and in fact in the vertical scaling progression style of MMO's we are doing picture #2. Guess what's missing? Picture #3 which is GW2 I like the one with the numbers on it personally (#2) I'd like to see your representation in picture form of GW2 for a chuckle <3. Ironically it looks like Anet is going with picture #2 in the near future except some people are giving it pass since the numbers are smaller instead of the 57 and 34 it's 5 & 3 same thing in the end but when the masses scream for character progression and everyone want's to feel like a "hero" it will increase box sales which is exactly what Anet wants.


I'd love to see if their cash shop has not been as popular as they would like since most things can be done in game removing the need to make cash shop purchases so in fact B2P backfires a bit as many people in these very forums chant "I haven't spent a cent in the store". It totally doesn't help the games bottom line when players just make the initial purchase and Anet has to then scramble to push an xpac up closer for more revenue or go the other route to attract more players by throwing in the gear progression model. Just my random tin foil hat ramblings but there's probably some truth to it.