1. #281
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    That or I don't want the government banning a cultural practice with no serious consequences in the vast majority of instances. But then again you're for small government that stays out of your business.
    1.5% is still large. Work out roughly how many circumcisions happen in a year. For every thousand that's 15 fatalities, and we haven't even looked at non fatal complications.
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  2. #282
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Why should we outlaw common cultural practices that have extremely low rates of complications?
    Extremely low rate of fatality != extremely low rate of complications.

    Why should we accept unnecessary non-voluntary surgery that carries a risk of fatality?
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    And there's feminist issues that MRM's want to resolve too. Just because they didn't bring them up on a day dedicated to men's health awareness doesn't mean we don't give a damn about them. I haven't heard any feminists discuss men's health issues, infact on the contrary I've seen a handful mock the whole concept of IMD saying it's not needed and that men were whining for the sake of whining.

    The points raised were not about us vs them. When you mention the suicide ratio is 3:1 we aren't asking for more women to start killing themselves. It's about bringing the male numbers DOWN to the same level. This isn't a zero sum system where one side has to suffer more for the other side to start getting better off.

    Taking a small handful of people you've experienced doesn't justify whitewashing an entire group. I don't accuse every feminist of misandry and self serving interest to put females above males. You've had a poor experience, people have them with both sides of the proverbial fence.
    The question was why the "men's rights movement" as an entity isn't taken seriously, I explained why. I might add, by the way, that I used to consider myself a part of this movement until I realized how superficial and two-faced the rhetoric I'd been following was. It doesn't mean I care less about men's rights than when I labelled myself such.

    Furthermore, for the record:

    * I never said the international men's day should also mention women's issues.
    * I never implied anything on the same continent as "men's rights activists think women should commit more suicide to even out the scale".
    * I explicitly stated that I am in fact not whitewashing an entire group, just that I've noticed a so far unbroken pattern in my experience with people in that group.

  4. #284
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    From the prevalence I see jokes like that in the video, I find it hard to believe they are "uncomfortable".
    I honestly don't know. I would hope that if you took each woman in that audience aside and asked them "If a man wrongs a woman, is she justified in cutting off his penis?" she would say "NO". But there's really no way to ascertain that one way or the other.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

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  5. #285
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Apples and oranges.
    How so? Sure, alcohol and tobacco are consumed for recreational purposes, but they're both responsible for millions of deaths each year. Hell, according to the WHO, alcohol was responsible for 4% of deaths worldwide. Worldwide. That's far more than you'll get from circumcisions.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    1.5% is still large. Work out roughly how many circumcisions happen in a year. For every thousand that's 15 fatalities, and we haven't even looked at non fatal complications.
    1.5% is not large and includes things like minor bleeding. Don't confuse "complications" with "fatalities". Its not a risky procedure by any reasonable stretch of the imagination. Clearly we should ban peewee sports since I'm sure the injury rate far exceeds 1.5%. Gotta stamp out those not actually risky cultural practices.

  7. #287
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    I hope you are kidding
    What? That people are collective idiots? That it's very easy to be sexist when you're encouraged to be? No, I'm not kidding.
    Human progress isn't measured by industry. It's measured by the value you place on a life.

    Just, be kind.

  8. #288
    Extremely low rate of fatality != extremely low rate of complications.

    Why should we accept unnecessary surgery that carries a risk of fatality?
    Everything in life carries the risk of fatality. Maybe we should dictate what food you can feed your kids?

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    What? That people are collective idiots? That it's very easy to be sexist when you're encouraged to be? No, I'm not kidding.
    How well did those rape comments work out for the GOP this last year?

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    People collectively, are stupid. Audiences are idiots, one person laughs, another laughs, they do it because it's uncomfortable. Laughter is not simply a sign of enjoyment, it's also a way that people attempt to deal with situations that make them uncomfortable. In addition, the audience is encouraged to laugh with the cast, lest the cast actually look bad for their opinions.

    And of course you are right, but on the same token, on a very "many" male show if there was an article about a man cutting off a woman's breasts, the male audience might have been laughing just as much.

    Individually people can be very rational and intelligent. But in large groups and under the influence of peer pressure to conform, they become idiots.
    There was another news anchor who laughed about the exact same story to the readily apparent shock of her male co-host. There was no one inciting her laughter. She simply became hysterical.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Yes, because women's views aren't catered to in the least right? Considering they pretty much singlehandedly cost the GOP the 2012 election?
    funny you should mention that. when was the last time a major party decided to base a good part of its platform on the oppression of male rights?

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Everything in life carries the risk of fatality. Maybe we should dictate what food you can feed your kids?
    Yes, because eating food is entirely the same as unnecessary surgery.

  13. #293
    Bloodsail Admiral Giants41's Avatar
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    HAHA as a guy i think this is pathetic. Man up guys. Seriously.
    Wow <3 Korra<3 Giants<3

  14. #294
    Women's rights! Men's rights!

    It's really a joke because, like other organizations that pine for equality, they refuse to shrug off some of the perks of their inequality, and continue to strongly identify with some aspect that is not shared by the people they wish to become equal to. Either side wishes to make a victim of themselves and point to the other as the "big bad opposite gender."

    It would be better serve humanity if there was defection from both of these decaying movements toward a unified movement of equality. That would be the real test of how much "equality" is truly sought after by these people.

  15. #295
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Yes, because eating food is entirely the same as unnecessary surgery.
    I point to the overweight and obese, your honor.

  16. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    How so? Sure, alcohol and tobacco are consumed for recreational purposes, but they're both responsible for millions of deaths each year. Hell, according to the WHO, alcohol was responsible for 4% of deaths worldwide. Worldwide. That's far more than you'll get from circumcisions.
    Child mutilation is not the same as adults doing something on their own risk.

  17. #297
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    1.5% is still large. Work out roughly how many circumcisions happen in a year. For every thousand that's 15 fatalities, and we haven't even looked at non fatal complications.
    In the US, where proper medical procedures are utilized, its 1 in 500 for a severe complication (which does not always result in death). Numerous studies done have shown that most of the claims about it being negative are inherently false. You have every single significant and related medical organization in the US approving its use, with the only dissent based not on its health effects, but on parental rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Exactly my point.
    I'm sorry that this is how democracy works. If you insult people, they don't vote for you.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Yes, because eating food is entirely the same as unnecessary surgery.
    IDK, lots cultures have diets that are pretty deadly and not necessary. See: The South. Better ban deep fried foods because they're an unnecessary and deadly cultural practice.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    I point to the overweight and obese, your honor.
    Still not even close. Circumcisions are generally soon after birth without a choice given by the infant. Obese people make poor choices over many years.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-23 at 10:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    IDK, lots cultures have diets that are pretty deadly and not necessary. See: The South. Better ban deep fried foods because they're an unnecessary and deadly cultural practice.
    You still ignore the whole premise of choice. However, I will waste no more time attacking your straw-man.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Why should we outlaw common cultural practices that have extremely low rates of complications? Shouldn't people be free to raise their children and live their lives in the way they see fit so long as they're not causing undue harm to their children or others?
    Because it's an optional procedure with a risk of complications, no medical necessity (in the vast majority of cases) and potential loss of sensation.

    Its only defense is an appeal to tradition. Imagine if parents pierced and began gauging their infant's ears? That's just as benign, but would probably be considered unacceptable, no?

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