[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

Sven won't perform well as long as people keep playing around early game teams. As a lane support who transitions to take the jungle so that he can turn into a carry he is great, but I still believe people are trying to make him something he is not. Perhaps people watching the current pro scene can examine this in more detail.

[audist]

Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.

[PizzaSHARK]

Sven just needs farm to be effective. He's going to be taking farm away from carries in pubs, and even then, Sven's effectiveness diminishes with every CC effect he takes, and plus, his ult is purgeable. It's just really rare to see a good Sven nowadays, unless he's being handled by a pro or the other team is disorganized.

Sven's ulti can't be purged in Dota 2, thankfully.

Sven, like several other heroes, is a very strong pick, but he requires certain playstyles and lineups for effectiveness, which don't seem to be things pro teams are currently interested in doing. His stun is OP as hell, but that stun alone isn't reason enough to pick him if you aren't going to play to his other strengths. I've seen similar things with Omniknight (being played as a 5 and therefore being pretty much useless all game), and if pro teams ever picked Dazzle, we'd also probably see it.

[Lysah]

Aggressive supports certainly are not "in" right now.

[PizzaSHARK]

Aggressive supports certainly are not "in" right now.

They would be if pros played to have fun

[Morally Grey Storm]

Sven's ulti can't be purged in Dota 2, thankfully.

wha?
How come ?
And I didnt notice..?

[PizzaSHARK]

wha?
How come ?
And I didnt notice..?

I don't think it was ever intended to be purge-able, but engine issues with War3 prevented them from flagging it that way.

Also, a lot of effects that BKB purged back in War3 aren't purged in Dota 2 - again, due to differences in the game engines, I think.

[Finear]

I don't think it was ever intended to be purge-able, but engine issues with War3 prevented them from flagging it that way.

not true since 6.73

[Deleted]

What game did he 1v4 a team? You could provide examples instead of just listing your hypothetical examples of biased situations. You could provide match ID numbers, you could provide stats via a parser site like dota-academy.com. There are plenty of ways you could back your statements up, surely you understand when other people do not take your arguments as serious posts. No? How is it subjective? "I think this hero is OP" - in what situation? In what skill bracket? In what team composition? Against underfarmed, overextended support heroes played by a guy emulating Windows 2000 and running 3000ms+ ping? Against an actual professional player in a non-public game setting?

If all you say is "this is OP" or "this does too much damage" or "lol replicate ANYWHERE INSTANT!!", no one will respond to you with anything even remotely serious.

NONONONO.

Even if I bring a replay where morphling won a game he shouldn't have, people will come up with tons of excuses: "MORPH GOT FED GG SCRUBS" or "ENEMY TEAM THROWING GG"

And I am talking about high+ skill pub to pro play. I don't really care too much about pubs in the first place, but I am obviously not talking about games where people just auto-attack, cause then Ursa is OP.

Again, he got nerfed - So obviously people/developers agree with me, so the burden of proof lies with you that he SHOULDN'T have been nerfed

[Deleted]

Here are some actual statistics from before 6.75, enjoy

[Finear]

Again, he got nerfed - So obviously people/developers agree with me, so the burden of proof lies with you that he SHOULDN'T have been nerfed

nerfed!=op

Here are some actual statistics from before 6.75, enjoy

clearly best ratio ;3

[Hermanni]

NONONONO.

Even if I bring a replay where morphling won a game he shouldn't have, people will come up with tons of excuses: "MORPH GOT FED GG SCRUBS" or "ENEMY TEAM THROWING GG"

It's called analysis. What he was asking was for you to bring examples of competitive use of Morphling and explain why it was Morphlings assumed imbalance that affected the result of the game and give us the opportunity to see your argument in action and refute it if we don't see it working. Your absolutely hilarious allcaps mock comments, on the other hand, don't really reinforce your credibility.

Again, he got nerfed - So obviously people/developers agree with me, so the burden of proof lies with you that he SHOULDN'T have been nerfed

I've already raised a lot of what I believe to be good points in my previous posts which you've promptly ignored. Besides your strikingly accurate allcaps mock imitations of my manner of speaking, this argumentum ad populum seems to be the only grounds of your argument. Too bad it counts as a logical fallacy.

I already pointed out that the popular opinion in dota is greatly biased and usually - a more recent example would be of Sven, whom many now claim to be OP because of his recent surge in popularity in competitive and after Fear's performance last night. Yet as was pointed out, his winrate as of last night was 3-10 in DHW. Not a very large sample pool for a statistics, but it still has more credibility than the opinions of random stream viewers with unknown expertise.

And as I already pointed out - and what you chose to ignore - was that since his nerfs, which are mostly small number tweaks, he has been reduced to the lowest pub winrate in the history of Dota 2 and completely disappeared from competitive. Prior to the nerfs he was around 50% winrate in pub and 53%? winrate in competitive. Trying to look at this from a developer point of view, I'd doubt this is where this is where they want Morphling - or any hero for that matter - to be, so if I was in charge I wouldn't really call the latest patch a success from Morphlings part. What I very personally would have preferred to see was Morph changes from 6.74 reverted - but I thought those buffs weren't necessary in the first place.

So in my mind I imagine one of the following three things happened: Either he was fine then and was nerfed too hard, he was OP then and is now fine, or he was OP then and too weak now. Looking at the magnitude of his nerfs, I very much doubt the last one is entirely possible, and looking at where he is now, the second one doesn't seem too plausible - and this is why I find it very hard to believe that he was massively overpowered in the first place.

I'm going to go ahead and make my own counterargument here - as the competitive scene shifts rapidly, there's hard to tell where Morphlings true competitive potential is right now. However the fact that his pub winrate is very unhealthy still stands, which doesn't seem very good for a hero that - according to Lysah, at least - is supposed to be very easy to play.

[Deleted]

It's called analysis. What he was asking was for you to bring examples of competitive use of Morphling and explain why it was Morphlings assumed imbalance that affected the result of the game and give us the opportunity to see your argument in action and refute it if we don't see it working. Your absolutely hilarious allcaps mock comments, on the other hand, don't really reinforce your credibility.



I've already raised a lot of what I believe to be good points in my previous posts which you've promptly ignored. Besides your strikingly accurate allcaps mock imitations of my manner of speaking, this argumentum ad populum seems to be the only grounds of your argument. Too bad it counts as a logical fallacy.

I already pointed out that the popular opinion in dota is greatly biased and usually - a more recent example would be of Sven, whom many now claim to be OP because of his recent surge in popularity in competitive and after Fear's performance last night. Yet as was pointed out, his winrate as of last night was 3-10 in DHW. Not a very large sample pool for a statistics, but it still has more credibility than the opinions of random stream viewers with unknown expertise.

And as I already pointed out - and what you chose to ignore - was that since his nerfs, which are mostly small number tweaks, he has been reduced to the lowest pub winrate in the history of Dota 2 and completely disappeared from competitive. Prior to the nerfs he was around 50% winrate in pub and 53%? winrate in competitive. Trying to look at this from a developer point of view, I'd doubt this is where this is where they want Morphling - or any hero for that matter - to be, so if I was in charge I wouldn't really call the latest patch a success from Morphlings part. What I very personally would have preferred to see was Morph changes from 6.74 reverted - but I thought those buffs weren't necessary in the first place.

So in my mind I imagine one of the following three things happened: Either he was fine then and was nerfed too hard, he was OP then and is now fine, or he was OP then and too weak now. Looking at the magnitude of his nerfs, I very much doubt the last one is entirely possible, and looking at where he is now, the second one doesn't seem too plausible - and this is why I find it very hard to believe that he was massively overpowered in the first place.

I'm going to go ahead and make my own counterargument here - as the competitive scene shifts rapidly, there's hard to tell where Morphlings true competitive potential is right now. However the fact that his pub winrate is very unhealthy still stands, which doesn't seem very good for a hero that - according to Lysah, at least - is supposed to be very easy to play.

Morph has the lowest winrate in pubs. That means a lot, does it?

After him comes BROODMOTHER. Then Meepo(Understandable). Then comes AM.

So going by this data, we need to buff AM/Broodmother..Naaaaaaaaaaaaaah, right?

He was OP and is now either too weak or fine. And he WAS easy to play(For anyone with mid range skill and up), diffrence is now you actually have to think about how you use your mana, and actually think about hp vs last hitting power early.



Edit: Maybe my argumentum is ad populum, but it is your job to disapprove it since you came with accusation of icefrog nerfing a hero that didn't need it, and so far your only point is that his pub stats are shitty, and that people are quick to calling a popular hero OP. Like that means anything? People complain about Ursa all the time, but icefrog isn't nerfing him, so obviously we aren't going for pub-low-apm-no-game-knowledge strictly balance.

Edit 2: No one plays him competitive play, but no one plays Visage (Maybe one team once a month, and I actually did see a Morph game in G1 too), and is he underpowered? Maybe, maybe not.

[Lillpapps]

Sven needs a lot of farm and a team built around him. You pretty much need the perfect picks for Sven to even hit more than one target in a team fight. He has no mobility what so ever.

[Finear]

He was OP

he was not
(seewhatididthere)

[Deleted]

he was not
(seewhatididthere)

Yes, you did pretty much what I did. He pretty much stated Morph wasn't OP when he said "I highly doubt anything but my first point is possible".. So I see what you did there.

[Mister K]

Guys check these screenshots out, this guy is insane. Damn russians....

46 kills, (I had 3 lool) I know I am a scrub! ^^
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/59...AEFF2ACC5F3B6/

2276 crit
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...05659FBA0339D/

[Deleted]

Guys check these screenshots out, this guy is insane. Damn russians....

46 kills, (I had 3 lool) I know I am a scrub! ^^
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/59...AEFF2ACC5F3B6/

2276 crit
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/...05659FBA0339D/

Pro bots :P

[Hermanni]

Morph has the lowest winrate in pubs. That means a lot, does it?

After him comes BROODMOTHER. Then Meepo(Understandable). Then comes AM.

So going by this data, we need to buff AM/Broodmother..Naaaaaaaaaaaaaah, right?

He was OP and is now either too weak or fine. And he WAS easy to play(For anyone with mid range skill and up), diffrence is now you actually have to think about how you use your mana, and actually think about hp vs last hitting power early.



Edit: Maybe my argumentum is ad populum, but it is your job to disapprove it since you came with accusation of icefrog nerfing a hero that didn't need it, and so far your only point is that his pub stats are shitty, and that people are quick to calling a popular hero OP. Like that means anything? People complain about Ursa all the time, but icefrog isn't nerfing him, so obviously we aren't going for pub-low-apm-no-game-knowledge strictly balance.

Edit 2: No one plays him competitive play, but no one plays Visage (Maybe one team once a month, and I actually did see a Morph game in G1 too), and is he underpowered? Maybe, maybe not.

Isn't it kind of funny I make my counterargument better than you do and you do me the favor of rephrasing that argument to look bad? I'm sorry, but this just isn't working, I can't seriously argue something if my critic is only making the most obvious counterarguments look bad.

In Dota most heroes do well in public and competitive, and the rest do well in either but not both. As of now Morpling and Meepo are only ones that clearly don't do well in either. In the case of Meepo it seems fairly understandable, but I doubt such status is desirable for any 'normal' hero. Not from the perspective of a developer nor from that of a player.

But like I said, this is pointless discussion if all you're going to keep coming up with with is some allcaps mock retorts to yourself, whatever argumentation error you still haven't used and some more hyperbole. If you want me to, I can pick up where you left and refute myself, but I'd rather let this matter go.

[Mister K]

Pro bots :P

They were talking Russian in chat, was a game vs bots too so maybe possible?

Edit I guess you ment the enemy, yeah medium difficulty bots, I suck at this just started tho like few days ago.