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  1. #1541
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishayu View Post
    One thing about this whole debate I'd like an answer to is wtf is up with Egypt. Egypt controls the southern border, but they don't send any aids nor do they open the border.

    I mean Israel is closing the borders because they are getting missiles fired at them and the reason they won't let anyone is the same reason the airports in your country have metal detectors.

    I'm perhaps suggesting that it might be slightly unfair to blame Israel here. Especially since Hamas have said they want to drive the jews into the sea. It's not about Palestine, it's about jews - and it looks to me like Egypt wants to keep the blood boiling. Just thought I'd clear that up.

    Oh, btw, a recent study has shown that Palestinians are some of the most overweight people in the world. I wonder, what with all the suffering, how that happened.
    The entire economy of Gaza is depended on foreign aid since they don't have the equipment or materials to rebuilt (destroyed harbour, airport, power-plant, roads), I think the unemployment rate is something like 50%. So half the grown population can't work (because their is no economy since the last war) but they do get foreign aid so they find food. But if all you can do during the day is eat and sleep chances are you will most likley gain allot of weight since you aren't doing anything during the day.

    Also the major reason why the economy of Gaza is in shambles is because of 2 major things. First is the blockade that Israel placed after hamas gained control over Gaza and second the war that occurred a few years ago. During the war Israel destroyed key area's (airports, powerplant, still under construction port) and as far as I know people in gaza never really managed to recover since they didn't have the materials needed to rebuild.

    Also the reason why Egypt is assisting Israel right now is the same reason why it has always. Egypt is getting money from the US and right now the Egyptian government can't afford (the whole revolution thing did hurt them financially ) angering the US will probably stop the foreign aid.

  2. #1542
    Legendary! Zecora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    I won't criticize the analysis, but as an Israeli living in Israel and seeing most issues that Haaretz releases, it's my opinion (and many others in Israel) that it's an incredibly anti-Israel paper.
    Then perhaps there might exist the possibility of you being biased in the matter? Regardless, I maintain that newspaper that favour israeli viewpoints over others cannot possiblybe refered to as "anti-israel".

  3. #1543
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeDayKeen View Post
    I'm not quite sure of that either, IIRC, back in 2000 or so there was a problem with UNWRA reserves being depleted, but I think it got handled back then.
    I don't think the problem is hunger so much, as in getting the correct nutrition, something which would be obvious as the population depends on International Aid, also would explain obesity. I think if people would starve there we would've heard a lot more about it.

    Oh, though I do agree that the rich people there (mostly Hamas affiliated folks) can afford better food, because all kind of supplies get smuggled in, but I reckon it's more expensive that the stuff the Aid organizations hand out. But I say that based on logic.
    Here's what I found... Most recent...
    Source United Nations.

    i quote:
    Meanwhile, the UN World Food Programme (WFP) was scheduled to begin food distributions for more than 30,000 people to prevent the conflict from deepening hunger in Gaza, which is already a food-insecure area.
    http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...=#.ULD9XIaC-ks

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 11:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Then perhaps there might exist the possibility of you being biased in the matter? Regardless, I maintain that newspaper that favour israeli viewpoints over others cannot possiblybe refered to as "anti-israel".
    As an Israeli living in Israel, of course Liara is biased. Who wouldn't, given the situation he lives in?
    But I can assure you that you can reason with him. He tries to be fair, if you show the same fairness in return.

  4. #1544
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    As an Israeli living in Israel, of course Liara is biased. Who wouldn't, given the situation he lives in?
    But I can assure you that you can reason with him. He tries to be fair, if you show the same fairness in return.
    Thanks, I appreciate that

  5. #1545
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liara View Post
    Thanks, I appreciate that
    anytime.

    We are on MMOC.. we are not, not should we be an extention of the war front and zone.
    I believe we, the rather neutral and directly un-effected people should be happy for every first hand experience contribution.
    It's easy for us to judge and prejudge. The bullets don't fly around our heads.
    We are safe and many of us were rather worried about the steal they can make on black friday, or to get a turkey leg..

    I love reading accounts from both sides. It helps me to find a middle ground.
    Last edited by Wildtree; 2012-11-24 at 05:40 PM.

  6. #1546
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    anytime.

    We are on MMOC.. we are not, not should we be an extention of the war front and zone.
    I believe we, the rather neutral and directly un-effected people should be happy for every first hand experience contribution.
    It's easy for us to judge and prejudge. The bullets don't fly around our heads.
    We are safe and many of us were rather worried about the steal they can make on black friday, or to get a turkey leg..

    I love reading accounts from both sides. It helps me to find a middle ground.
    I'm Israeli as well, I actually live very close to the border, and let me tell you: getting rockets thrown at your house is not fun.
    I am also not under the illusion that everyone on the other side is a terrorist, and I don't condone any sort of harm directly aimed at civilians.
    Despite what people around the world might think, we are not monsters, I only want to live in peace at the land I consider my home- and even though I understand the other side can not accept me being here, I can't get up and leave. I won't. This is my home, I have no other.
    What I would like to see is peace, to coexist with our neighours and maybe even be friends, but if that is not an option I would settle at not being under constant rocket and bombing threats. I hope people on the other side will accept that to.
    What I do fear though, is that Hamas can't accept my presence here, and that's a huge issue.
    Well, I hope things will be better.
    Also, if you read back in this thread you see a huge amount of unbased hatred, even going as far as claiming Jews are happy the Holocaust happens, that is an awful notion, that just shows how little people understand and how much hate they are fed- these things disturb me even more, because I can understand why Hamas would hate me, but that people who are completly unattached to the situation on a personnal level would think those things... I can't understand it.

  7. #1547
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    JeDayKeen it must be terrible to have rockets aimed at your house, but what is your stand about collective punishment? do you think that make people listen less to fundamentalists?

    If you know why Hamas would hate you, now why are the Israel government taking every opportunity to give Hamas a excuse to hate? Wildtree and I have taken up the similarity to the Palestinian and Ireland conflict, and I can only note that government of Israel are doing the opposite to what the British government did to end the conflict.

  8. #1548
    Quote Originally Posted by a77 View Post
    JeDayKeen it must be terrible to have rockets aimed at your house, but what is your stand about collective punishment? do you think that make people listen less to fundamentalists?

    If you know why Hamas would hate you, now why are the Israel government taking every opportunity to give Hamas a excuse to hate? Wildtree and I have taken up the similarity to the Palestinian and Ireland conflict, and I can only note that government of Israel are doing the opposite to what the British government did to end the conflict.
    I am ashamed to say I don't know much about the Irish\British conflict, but I reckon, as we are talking about very diffrent cultures (Mid east vs. UK) that the same method might now work.
    What I think, and note I am not a great politician, that could help better the situation is improving the economic status in the Strip, but it's easier said then done... Also, I think improving personal freedom in the Strip (forming a real democracy, freedom of speech and religion) will greatly benefit the process. I think Israel is missing a golden chance in the West Bank just because the situation there is getting so much better, the ground is right for fruitful peace talks (Gaza, not so much...).

    And I am against collective punishment, obviously. I think if a closure is imposed on the Strip against the import of guns and weapon parts, it should focus on that (and I think this is where the situation is headed, there are already all sort of changes in the system since the fighting stopped).

  9. #1549
    Quote Originally Posted by svenforkbeard View Post
    If you keep poking a bear with a stick, don't get all whiny when it turns around and uses what it has at its disposal.

    I cant believe someone is justifying Hamas actions by saying the effect is negligible.[COLOR="red"]
    When the bear (israel in your analogy) constantly kills Palestinians by bulldozing them in their homes to make settlements, the rather oblivious and underarmed person is going to use whatever is in his disposal to get the attention of the bear to stop doing that thing.

    I butchered that analogy but my point makes sense lol.
    Last edited by Flaks; 2012-11-24 at 07:35 PM.
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  10. #1550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    They atleast let investigators in, while Israel still doesn't let the IAEA even to their country for proper check-up.
    Considering Israel is higher up in the pecking order when it comes to nuclear technology in the eyes of the UN, and they aren't led by a psychotic terrorists like the freaks in Iran, Syria and Pakistan, the need for investigations is irrelevant since they are far less likely to use them to exterminate a whole country full of people rather then Al Asaad and whatnot. The big difference is that Israel has no intention of wiping another race off the map, unlike Iran and Syria which would love nothing more then to eliminate Israel from existence.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 02:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Martoshi View Post
    You're saying this as if it somehow justifies locking up and walling in a whole nation in refugee camps. It doesn't.



    Israeli politicians, including a deputy prime minister and the minister of interior has stated that it is the precise intention of Israel to do just that, it's also completely in line with the facts on the ground.
    It seemed pretty acceptable for Germany to do it for quite some times before anyone did anything.

  11. #1551
    The Patient One-Eyed Jack's Avatar
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    The Middle East has caused enough problems for the past 2000 years. If they didn't have oil under that desert, I couldn't see why any rational country would fund that area of the world. Once all the oil is drilled from the sand, I hope all those animals in the Middle East wipe themselves out and do the rest of the world a favor for waisting recourses trying to police them
    Last edited by One-Eyed Jack; 2012-11-24 at 10:20 PM.

  12. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Considering Israel is higher up in the pecking order when it comes to nuclear technology in the eyes of the UN, and they aren't led by a psychotic terrorists like the freaks in Iran, Syria and Pakistan, the need for investigations is irrelevant since they are far less likely to use them to exterminate a whole country full of people rather then Al Asaad and whatnot.
    Oh, yeah, sure, Iran, Syria and Pakistan (Pakistan already has nukes, mind you) would love nothing more than to use their nukes and in return assure they themselves are getting nuked. If any of those countries nuked anyone, it would be identical to detonating the same nukes in their own countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    The big difference is that Israel has no intention of wiping another race off the map, unlike Iran and Syria which would love nothing more then to eliminate Israel from existence.
    About Israel not wanting to wiping another race off the map, well, you're just wrong because Israeli politicians have already said they'd like to destroy the Palestinians. Sure, those are just extremists. That only means, though, that Iran, Syria and Pakistan have more extremists.

    Also, no politician (including the Iranian president) from those 3 countries has ever said they wanted to wipe Israel off the map. I love how you're basing your entire argument on an American media (which is hugely biased and non-objective) report where the Iranian president supposedly said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map, which was actually later established to have been a mistranslation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    It seemed pretty acceptable for Germany to do it for quite some times before anyone did anything.
    Except we aren't living in mid-20th century, or are we? What's the point of that post anyways? What the hell does Nazi Germany have to do with the current Gaza situation?
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-11-25 at 02:07 AM.

  13. #1553
    The Lightbringer N-7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    It seemed pretty acceptable for Germany to do it for quite some times before anyone did anything.
    What happened to Germany afterwards?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 01:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by One-Eyed Jack View Post
    The Middle East has caused enough problems for the past 2000 years. If they didn't have oil under that desert, I couldn't see why any rational country would fund that area of the world. Once all the oil is drilled from the sand, I hope all those animals in the Middle East wipe themselves out and do the rest of the world a favor for waisting recourses trying to police them
    You know that during the dark ages which happen to be in your "past 2000 years", the Middle East was the "Roman Empire" of that era right?

  14. #1554
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    Oh, yeah, sure, Iran, Syria and Pakistan (who already have nukes, mind you) would love nothing more than to use their nukes and in return assure they themselves are getting nuked. If any of those countries nuked anyone, it would be identical to detonating the same nukes in their own countries.



    About Israel not wanting to wiping another race off the map, well, you're just wrong because Israeli politicians have already said they'd like to destroy the Palestinians. Sure, they're extremists. That only means, though, that Iran, Syria and Pakistan have more extremists.

    Also, no politician (including the Iranian president) from those 3 countries has ever said they wanted to wipe Israel off the map. I love how you're basing your entire argument on an American media (which is hugely biased and non-objective) report where the Iranian president supposedly said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map, which was actually later established to have been a mistranslation.



    Except we aren't living in mid-20th century, or are we? What's the point of that post anyways? What the hell does Nazi Germany have to do with the current Gaza situation?
    Do you have proof that Iran has nuclear weapons? I'm sure the IAEA would like to hear from you.

  15. #1555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    Do you have proof that Iran has nuclear weapons? I'm sure the IAEA would like to hear from you.
    The wording is a bit off but he only meant that Pakistan have nukes not the other two.

  16. #1556
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    Quote Originally Posted by N-7 View Post
    What happened to Germany afterwards?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-25 at 01:29 AM ----------


    You know that during the dark ages which happen to be in your "past 2000 years", the Middle East was the "Roman Empire" of that era right?
    Again, I hope that whole desert gets turned into glass. The Middle East birthed religion, the #1 cause of more unnatural deaths than anything else in history. I don't care about that part of the world, nor it's people. All they are good for is oil

    Infracted for flaming.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-11-25 at 02:03 AM.

  17. #1557
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Hamas did not kill their own children. Israelis did.
    BULLSHIT... a large percentage of the Hamas rockets never fucking leave Gaza... they blow up and kill Palestinians... in fact... Hamas has killed or injured more Palestinians this time than they have killed or injured Israelis.

    Think I'm wrong, check it out yourself.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 08:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    When the bear (israel in your analogy) constantly kills Palestinians by bulldozing them in their homes to make settlements, the rather oblivious and underarmed person is going to use whatever is in his disposal to get the attention of the bear to stop doing that thing.

    I butchered that analogy but my point makes sense lol.
    You DID butcher that analogy, and you butchered the truth, but thats okay.... So your solution is continue poking the bear with the stick to get him to stop clawing the shit out of you for, yes, you guessed it, pokiing him with the stick.

  18. #1558
    Quote Originally Posted by Wildtree View Post
    Wait up now...

    Let's get this in perspective my friend.
    Hamas fires rockets from residential areas. That we won't argue for now.
    Hamas is a terror organization. That we won't argue for now.
    Firing those rockets into Israel is a Terror act. That we won't argue for now.

    So, you saying that the solution of fighting a terror attack is to blindfolded firing back into the residential area is the way to fight terror?
    You must be out of your mind then.
    The way you fight terror is by eliminating it with pin point accuracy and intelligence.
    The best way to eliminate terror cells is from within. Infiltration to the point where you can take out the danger without any or extremely little civilian casualties.
    How do you think the USA takes out one Al Qaeda leader or key member after another, without causing any noticeable casualties.
    Al Qaedas entire elite leadership is completely destroyed/eliminated. It's not an accident when in all of a sudden a US drone hits a jeep somewhere on some remote road. It's intelligence that finds out where and when to strike with deadly accuracy and without harming the population.
    Firing into a dense populated area is the sure path to injuring or even killing innocent people.
    As to the Hamas being a terror organization, that's another topic. I don't really know to what extent that is the case.
    Examples in the recent past shown, that such label is given out easily and not seldom just too fast.
    Northern Ireland says hi! Or to even remain in the very region..... the PLO says hi.. The PLO was labeled a Terror Organization. Still it's leader Arafat managed to get a Peace Nobel Price. A minority fighting a majority on their own grounds and terms of violence in return, does not make them terrorists.

    You can argue, and I agree with it, that throwing rockets into Israel is an act of terror, since it's aimed into residential areas. But for the same reeasons I agree with you I also evaluate the other side, and the same counts for Israel. Firing rockets into residential areas is an act of terror.

    You have proper defense to keep the rockets from causing harm (Iron Dome). You have intelligence (Mossat) which is capable to find out more humane ways to weaken or disable the terror acts against you.
    And I say the same to the Israeli, that also applies to the Americans.
    The reason why others hate you, or dislike you is not because of the others just want to hate you (we can disregard extremists here). It's because of your own actions. You lay in the bed you make for yourself. Start treating the people with respect and show humanity, and you will see how fast there will be peace.
    The numbers of haters will diminish. The number of supporters will increase. Refrain from violence and people start to like you.
    The population has no reason to support and harbor terror cells, if they know that the terror cells are rather extremists who have no reason whatsoever and their claims are wrong. Their support will crumble.

    We are dealing with the stupid question what was there first. The chicken or the egg..
    Who shot first, who is more evil. Stop defending violence, period.

    Hamas did not kill their own children. Israelis did.
    Blaming it on Hamas is bullshit. Blame them for what ever happens to Israelis in Israel. And blame Israel for what happens in Gaza.
    Blame both that their people cannot live in peace and rather in fear for their lives.
    What is the alternative? Let Hamas keep firing rockets at Israeli citizens?

    Israel has expressed countless times that it is sad that civilians die as a result from Hamas cowardliness in hiding rockets in civilian areas, but they can't just leave them to do it forever.

    Hamas is the one killing civilians... Palestinian and Israeli.

    If I claimed to own a nuclear weapon capable of launch with a travel distance of 2000 miles and I had it prepared to launch on a decommissioned navy ship I'd bought and had already fired missiles at a nation... and my family, innocents were on board... Whose fault will it be when they end up killed? The person that bombed me? Or me for putting my family or the weapons near one another? It would be my fault. Cause and effect.
    Last edited by Palmatum; 2012-11-25 at 02:15 AM.

  19. #1559
    Immortal mistuhbull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palmatum View Post
    What is the alternative? Let Hamas keep firing rockets at Israeli citizens?

    Israel has expressed countless times that it is sad that civilians die as a result from Hamas cowardliness in hiding rockets in civilian areas, but they can't just leave them to do it forever.

    Hamas is the one killing civilians... Palestinian and Israeli.

    If I claimed to own a nuclear weapon capable of launch with a travel distance of 2000 miles and I had it prepared to launch on a decommissioned navy ship I'd bought and had already fired missiles at a nation... and my family, innocents were on board... Whose fault will it be when they end up killed? The person that bombed me? Or me for putting my family or the weapons near one another? It would be my fault. Cause and effect.

    You're forgetting that Hamas's rockets don't count because their aim is so shitty and Iron Dome so effective
    Theron/Bloodwatcher 2013!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsompr View Post
    Teasing, misdirection. It's the opposite of a spoiler. People expect one thing? BAM! Another thing happens.

    I'm like M. Night fucking Shamylan.

  20. #1560
    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    You're forgetting that Hamas's rockets don't count because their aim is so shitty and Iron Dome so effective
    if they are so ineffective then whats the point in launching them? hmm?

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