Was Azshara Born... A Troll?

[Otaka]

all elves came from trolls, however around the time of queen azshara her rule they were elves already for quite some time. having build up their empire and such.
beside elves werent immortal in those days, so it wouldnt be weird that several generations had already passed before she became the queen.

Elves were immortal precisely before the downfall of azshara... the well kept them immortal, now elves arent immortal but they still live quite some time.

Trolls arent immortal, but some trolls started to become empowered by magic so eventually they became elves and immortal.
Just as human evolved from monkeys.

Evolution is not a belief, its truth and science... We humans were little monkeys who got influenced by violence and became what we are now. :P

[GennGreymane]

Elves were immortal precisely before the downfall of azshara... the well kept them immortal, now elves arent immortal but they still live quite some time.

Trolls arent immortal, but some trolls started to become empowered by magic so eventually they became elves and immortal.
Just as human evolved from monkeys.

Evolution is not a belief, its truth and science... We humans were little monkeys who got influenced by violence and became what we are now. :P

real life =/= wow

kil'jeaden and archimonde within life time became demons
fel orcs within a generation
fel elves within a generation
charmander into charmelion(sp) into charizard within a few hours

[Grocalis]

I do find the argument that the Night Elves had to evolve over time to be a bit silly in a world were rapid evolution is par for the course. Satyr, Naga, Jinyu, Fel Orcs, even Worgen, etc... are all examples of a race rapidly evolving into a new race due to outside factors. For all we know GennGreymane is both right AND wrong, because the Vrykul created a precedent where one race literally gave birth to another race right out of the womb. For all we know some trolls near the Well of Eternity literally pushed out long-eared, thick-browed babies with regular hands and feet, rather then being a base transformation or a long standing evolution.

[GennGreymane]

I do find the argument that the Night Elves had to evolve over time to be a bit silly in a world were rapid evolution is par for the course. Satyr, Naga, Jinyu, Fel Orcs, even Worgen, etc... are all examples of a race rapidly evolving into a new race due to outside factors. For all we know GennGreymane is both right AND wrong, because the Vrykul created a precedent where one race literally gave birth to another race right out of the womb. For all we know some trolls near the Well of Eternity literally pushed out long-eared, thick-browed babies with regular hands and feet, rather then being a base transformation or a long standing evolution.

I totally forgot about the human from vykrul thing

[Justignoreme]

Elves were immortal precisely before the downfall of azshara... the well kept them immortal, now elves arent immortal but they still live quite some time.

Wrong. Night Elves (following the sundering) were gifted Immortality by Nozdormu to maintain their legacy, remind them of the terrible toll Azshara's rein exacted from themselves and the world, and as an additional benefit to defend Nordrassil at all costs since Nordrassil was the medium through which Nozdormu's boon protected them. Teldrassil did not receive his blessing, even after Malfurion cleansed it of nightmare corruption and Alexstrasza and Ysera reinstated their boons to the Kal'dorei via Teldrassil.

[Grocalis]

Wrong. Night Elves (following the sundering) were gifted Immortality by Nozdormu to maintain their legacy, remind them of the terrible toll Azshara's rein exacted from themselves and the world, and as an additional benefit to defend Nordrassil at all costs since Nordrassil was the medium through which Nozdormu's boon protected them. Teldrassil did not receive his blessing, even after Malfurion cleansed it of nightmare corruption and Alexstrasza and Ysera reinstated their boons to the Kal'dorei via Teldrassil.

While that is all correct, it does not stop the fact they were also immortal during the time of Azshara, as the Well of Eternity itself was keeping them all young and alive. Azshara herself was tens of thousands of years old, but remained looking younger then most due to her magics and the WoE.

When the Well of Eternity imploded, they became mortal, but Nozdormu allowed them to keep immortality so that they could carry on and protect the World Tree. All of Night Elf history has only known immortality, which is why now that they are officially mortal again, they are having a huge amount of trouble coping with it.

[Justignoreme]

While that is all correct, it does not stop the fact they were also immortal during the time of Azshara, as the Well of Eternity itself was keeping them all young and alive. Azshara herself was tens of thousands of years old, but remained looking younger then most due to her magics and the WoE.

She wasn't tens of thousands of years old at the time of the War of the Ancients, I don't think that was mentioned. If she was ten thousand years old at the time of the War of the Ancients, there simply is no way, whatsoever, at all possible that Night Elves descended from Trolls in the context of the timelines laid out as she was *not* the first Night Elf, she inherited a kingdom, she didn't found it. It would've literally had to have been on par with the timelines of human evolution from earlier homonids. So 1 million years ago a group of proto-trolls split off and became the Night Elves, and this has nothing to do with magic, the well, or archaeology and written lore.

When the Well of Eternity imploded, they became mortal, but Nozdormu allowed them to keep immortality so that they could carry on and protect the World Tree. All of Night Elf history has only known immortality, which is why now that they are officially mortal again, they are having a huge amount of trouble coping with it.

They didn't really do a good job explaining this coping part. Sentinels knew death was a reality in their job description faced it down every time they went to battle, death was nothing they feared or had trouble coping with. No one getting decrepit or hyper-aging in the mere 10-15 years since Nordrassil was damaged. Darkshore NPCs succumbing to mortal injuries from the Cataclysm saying "this is what being mortal feels like" would be met with a raised eyebrow to any sentinel who suffered a mortal injury but received medical aid in time to save her life. The only coping Night Elves would have to do with losing their immortality is seeing themselves age... a thousand years down the road. Death from bodily injury, etc was a fact of life, even when they were immortal.

[The Glitch]

Quite interested in the Well of Eternity and it's origin, I was thinking perhaps maybe it was the product of the Old Gods? Perhaps they *made* it for their own purposes? And could tie in with the using of it through the War of the Ancients as their main focal point trying to get back through to the *mortal plane*. Just a thought

[Grocalis]

They didn't really do a good job explaining this coping part. Sentinels knew death was a reality in their job description faced it down every time they went to battle, death was nothing they feared or had trouble coping with. No one getting decrepit or hyper-aging in the mere 10-15 years since Nordrassil was damaged. Darkshore NPCs succumbing to mortal injuries from the Cataclysm saying "this is what being mortal feels like" would be met with a raised eyebrow to any sentinel who suffered a mortal injury but received medical aid in time to save her life. The only coping Night Elves would have to do with losing their immortality is seeing themselves age... a thousand years down the road. Death from bodily injury, etc was a fact of life, even when they were immortal.

The issue here is you are only mentioning the Sentinels, who are the warrior caste of the Night Elves. Obviously they are going to be able to cope with mortality, but the Sentinels don't make up the majority of the Night Elves, so you have to take into account the blacksmith, the baker, the owl trainer, the banker, the auctioneer, etc... Teldrassil itself was grown because Fandrel Staghelm and a large amount of night elves were scared of being mortal, so much so that they relocated nearly their entire civilization from Nighthaven to Darnassus to be close to the new tree, only for Nozdormu to say "What? No."

Even now, on Pandaria, some of the Night Elves still cling to regaining immortality. To some, death can happen, to those behind the wall of Sentinals, death was never an inevitability.

[kage]

I think it was implied there were queens before her.

[Frontenac]

Wrong. Night Elves (following the sundering) were gifted Immortality by Nozdormu to maintain their legacy, remind them of the terrible toll Azshara's rein exacted from themselves and the world, and as an additional benefit to defend Nordrassil at all costs since Nordrassil was the medium through which Nozdormu's boon protected them. Teldrassil did not receive his blessing, even after Malfurion cleansed it of nightmare corruption and Alexstrasza and Ysera reinstated their boons to the Kal'dorei via Teldrassil.

The Well of Eternity indeed granted Night Elves their immortality. Nordrassil was grown over the Second Well of Eternity to bprevent any more demonic incursions through it. It also dispelled its corrupting influence. Through Nordrassil and Nozdormu's blessing that linked them to the World Tree, the Night Elves had access to the Well's power to grant immortality once more, but without its corrupting effects. When Nordrassil was "destroyed", that link was broken, and the Night Elves became mortals.

[Combatbutler]

I think it was implied there were queens before her.

The night elves could have existed for 16.000 years max. This is the time the trolls beat the aqir and shortly afterwards their empires crumbled under Night elven onslaughts. Which means the night elven empire existed for roughly 6.000 years, there might have been several generations of night elves alive, when the burning legion struck.

[Grocalis]

The night elves could have existed for 16.000 years max. This is the time the trolls beat the aqir and shortly afterwards their empires crumbled under Night elven onslaughts. Which means the night elven empire existed for roughly 6.000 years, there might have been several generations of night elves alive, when the burning legion struck.

Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.

[Combatbutler]

Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.

Indeed we can only speculate, but their empire still couldn't have existed for longer than 6.000 years, though it was mentioned they rose to power in a very short period of time. 5.000 years are more likely, unfortunately we have no solid dates -.-

[Frontenac]

Be aware, all we know is the Night Elves came blazing out of the area around the Well of Eternity and started destroying everything. It says nothing of them doing this straight after creation, for all we know, they existed by the Well of Eternity for thousands of years before that.

Indeed, the priesthood of Elune existed long before the Night Elves had discovered that they could use the Well's magic and use it against their enemies.

[Grocalis]

Indeed we can only speculate, but their empire still couldn't have existed for longer than 6.000 years, though it was mentioned they rose to power in a very short period of time. 5.000 years are more likely, unfortunately we have no solid dates -.-

The date issue is the largest, since the timeline itself has been rather fluid for a long time. Blizzard will change it when they feel the story fits better.

For instance, WC2 starts with the little intro "6 years have passed since the First War between orc and man", which implies six years passed since the war ended and the new one was about to begin. The newer timeline instead makes it so six years have passed since Medivh opened the portal, and only a year between the First and Second Wars.

[Combatbutler]

The date issue is the largest, since the timeline itself has been rather fluid for a long time. Blizzard will change it when they feel the story fits better.

For instance, WC2 starts with the little intro "6 years have passed since the First War between orc and man", which implies six years passed since the war ended and the new one was about to begin. The newer timeline instead makes it so six years have passed since Medivh opened the portal, and only a year between the First and Second Wars.

I hope they establish a fitting timeline with major events, sometimes it gets downright confusing.

[huth]

real life =/= wow

kil'jeaden and archimonde within life time became demons
fel orcs within a generation
fel elves within a generation
charmander into charmelion(sp) into charizard within a few hours

However, none of those are evolution. Even if pokemon falsely calls it that. Evolution is, by definition, over multiple generations. If that isn't the case, it's not evolution.

[Grocalis]

However, none of those are evolution. Even if pokemon falsely calls it that. Evolution is, by definition, over multiple generations. If that isn't the case, it's not evolution.

Depends. Technically one could call the sudden change from one race into another to be mutation, but mutation itself is mentioned as a possible driver of evolution.

We could get lost in the semantics of the whole thing, but the term "evolution" in this type of setting is not exactly a simple one. For the most part, the term is used for whenever one race is altered to become another one, either through long changes due to generations or quick changes through magic. Example, take a trip back down to Blackrock Decent, fight the second boss, and she will transform her human minions into "Evolved Twilight Zealots", basically massive dragonkin brutes.

Even if we do take it as having to occur over generations to count as "evolution", what would be call the sudden birth of humanity in the WarCraft setting? They happened over only a single generation.

[Verain]

Sure, why not.