(Blood Elf) Revelation about Garithos and three questions

[Aildrik]

Would you trust something so self-centered?

Is that being self-centered or is it respecting choice?

[Combatbutler]

Then they don't understand the Light.

The light is but a source of energy anyone can use for good and evil, the scarlet crusade is proof to that. It isn't the epitome of good.

[Deleted]

Would you trust something so self-centered?

I have the perfect response to that, but I can't because it's against the forum rules

[Stuffs]

Given the circumstances I would have a problem to keep believing if most of my family is dead my homeland in utter ruins and almost everyone I knew was dead or worse.

Here's the difference, our happy thoughts cant shoot magic holy bolts and instantly heal a gutted stomach.
They have tangible proof that "Not being a prick gives you magic powers".

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 12:36 PM ----------

The light is but a source of energy anyone can use for good and evil, the scarlet crusade is proof to that. It isn't the epitome of good.

I'm of the opinion the light, as a player, is powered by the urge to do good, not necessarily doing it.
The Scarlet Crusade thought they were doing the right thing for instance.

[Combatbutler]

Here's the difference, our happy thoughts cant shoot magic holy bolts and instantly heal a gutted stomach.
They have tangible proof that "Not being a prick gives you magic powers".

The scarlet crusade likes to have a word with you the light can be used for evil as well.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 09:37 PM ----------

I'm of the opinion the light, as a player, is powered by the urge to do good, not necessarily doing it.
The Scarlet Crusade thought they were doing the right thing for instance.

So does Garrosh and Sylvanas, does that make their actions good ? If the light truly supported only good people the crusaders wouldn't be able to use it.

[Deleted]

The light is but a source of energy anyone can use for good and evil, the scarlet crusade is proof to that. It isn't the epitome of good.

Yeah it doesn't have anything to do with good or evil, you just have to believe in it. It's a faith thing. I mean the Holy Light is very close to religion. But I don't think we can be sure that the Naaru and the Holy Light are one and the same thing now can we? Then how can you justify torturing a Naaru because the Holy Light is a bitch?

[Stuffs]

So does Garrosh and Sylvanas, does that make their actions good ? If the light truly supported only good people the crusaders wouldn't be able to use it.

As I just said, it seems to be powered by the desire to do good, even if the action isn't necessarily good.
With Sylvanas, if that short story can be trusted is doing what she does for herself, not for the forsaken.
Regarding Garrosh, he doesn't seem to care about magic in general.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah it doesn't have anything to do with good or evil, you just have to believe in it. It's a faith thing. I mean the Holy Light is very close to religion. But I don't think we can be sure that the Naaru and the Holy Light are one and the same thing now can we? Then how can you justify torturing a Naaru because the Holy Light is a bitch?

Because it was there, and they knew its powers were light based and it was strong against undead, who were about to finish what they started a few years prior, as cruel as that sounds sometimes you have to compromise your morals for mere survival the blood elves did a lot of shady things in order to stay alive and this is one of the most prominent.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 09:44 PM ----------

As I just said, it seems to be powered by the desire to do good, even if the action isn't necessarily good.
With Sylvanas, if that short story can be trusted is doing what she does for herself, not for the forsaken.
Regarding Garrosh, he doesn't seem to care about magic in general.

That wasn't really the point, if the desire to spread good means the extermination of countless of innocents how can something like that be considered good in the first place? The answer it can't be and as such the light can't be considered good either it is just a form of energy like the arcane.

[Deleted]

Because it was there, and they knew its powers were light based and it was strong against undead, who were about to finish what they started a few years prior, as cruel as that sounds sometimes you have to compromise your morals for mere survival the blood elves did a lot of shady things in order to stay alive and this is one of the most prominent.

So was it really necessary or just convenient?

[Combatbutler]

So was it really necessary or just convenient?

Maybe a bit of both, with Muru they had a new way to fight the encroaching scourge, their situation was rather grim. Could they have survived without the blood knights? Maybe, but their chances would have dropped significantly.

[Stuffs]

That wasn't really the point, if the desire to spread good means the extermination of countless of innocents how can something like that be considered good in the first place? The answer it can't be and as such the light can't be considered good either it is just a form of energy like the arcane.

Because, in their mind they are doing good. I'm not going to argue if the energy itself is good, but simply what powers it.
If they got over themselves and looked at the tangible evidence, that happy thoughts=magic, they could do it. It's not the end all be all, but it is a power source they had 100% control over.

[Deleted]

Maybe a bit of both, with Muru they had a new way to fight the encroaching scourge, their situation was rather grim. Could they have survived without the blood knights? Maybe, but their chances would have dropped significantly.

But in the end it makes them no better than the Scourge.

[Combatbutler]

Because, in their mind they are doing good. I'm not going to argue if the energy itself is good, but simply what powers it.
If they got over themselves and looked at the tangible evidence, that happy thoughts=magic, they could do it. It's not the end all be all, but it is a power source they had 100% control over.

Well if you won't argue that the light is ultimately good you are correct, since the elves as a people were shattered and more less still in the mourning process, I guess some of them still are, after such a traumatic experience only the most devoted believers would be able to keep their faith.

---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 09:54 PM ----------

But in the end it makes them no better than the Scourge.

Torturing a single being in order to protect tens of thousands of innocents makes them as bad as the scourge?

[checking facts]

But in the end it makes them no better than the Scourge.

the scourge is not bad.

http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Decree_of_the_Scourge

"The largest misconception the living have of the Scourge is our penchant for what is considered 'evil.' For the sake of demoralization we allow this error to perpetuate, and indeed spread it on our own. The true nature of The Scourge is our transcendence of the shackles that keep any of the living races from becoming as prosperous as we.

For example: What benefits do emotion and honor really hold? They serve to validate the living, to make them feel 'good.' Now, what flaws do they hold? Emotion is directly correlated to the ignorance of logic and reason. Honor is, at most times, the sole perpetrator of able resources fighting a losing battle. It is baffling even to me that the living can be so unaware of how eager we are to play the part of their villain, to nurture their greatest flaws by becoming the embodiment of all that incites irrational behavior."

[Grocalis]

Just a quick bit of info. Not all of the Blood Elves gave up on the Light. While the power of Muru were used to fuel the Blood Knights, the Priests were still using the magic the old fashioned way, which is why they were not located in the same location as the Blood Knights. The whole thing with the Blood Knights was basically a sect of warriors, who felt that the Light "abandoned" them because the Light didn't stop the fall of Quel'Thalas. When they were gifted Muru, they felt they had the perfect method to bend the Light itself to their will and gain it's "full potential" rather then whatever the chuckle head priests were using, which they felt was a weak form of the Light. In other words, they felt the Light was holding out on them, and Muru was the conduit to take that power to it's full potential.

[Deleted]

Torturing a single being in order to protect tens of thousands of innocents makes them as bad as the scourge?

Torturing an innocent being for their own ends.

the scourge is not bad.

http://www.wowpedia.org/The_Decree_of_the_Scourge

"The largest misconception the living have of the Scourge is our penchant for what is considered 'evil.' For the sake of demoralization we allow this error to perpetuate, and indeed spread it on our own. The true nature of The Scourge is our transcendence of the shackles that keep any of the living races from becoming as prosperous as we.

For example: What benefits do emotion and honor really hold? They serve to validate the living, to make them feel 'good.' Now, what flaws do they hold? Emotion is directly correlated to the ignorance of logic and reason. Honor is, at most times, the sole perpetrator of able resources fighting a losing battle. It is baffling even to me that the living can be so unaware of how eager we are to play the part of their villain, to nurture their greatest flaws by becoming the embodiment of all that incites irrational behavior."

Scourge propaganda.

[Combatbutler]

Torturing an innocent being for their own ends.

It is one being against almost the entire remains of a species, if you think about it logically it is almost a no brainer.

[checking facts]

Scourge propaganda.

the scourge has no need for propaganda. all members of the scourge can be and are directly mind controled by the lich king and his most trusted minions. the scourge doesn't want the living to know they aren't actually evil, as it's written on that book, because it serves their purpose. why do you think zeliek is one of the four horsemen? it's definitely not due to propaganda lol

[Deleted]

It is one being against almost the entire remains of a species, if you think about it logically it is almost a no brainer.

If it was a sure thing that the Blood Elves would die without the Naarus powers then I can see the sense in it. If it's drain that things power or die, then I would have done the same thing. But if it's just one additional weapon, if they actually have alternatives like someone mentioned the priests were actually able to communicate with the light, if they actually have strong fighters and skilled mages, if they are not defenseless and stand a good chance, then I would say it's wrong. And there are alternative ways, like trying to communicate with the Naaru, trying to learn from the priests how they are still able to communicate with the light etc.

But as things went down, it felt like it was just one more wicked thing the Blood Elves did.

[TheDangerZone]

My personal head-canon is that light doesn't runs on "goodness" but instead on sheer conviction and a bit self-righteousness. "Will" you might call it, it holy takes you to believe that your cause is the righteous one, truly believe it.