Bot, a natural response to game design flaws?

[Playintrafic]

I just dont like doing dailies. For that reason alone I am considering getting a bot to do them if I can find one that does so. I never did dailies until now. They were not required to raid which is what i like doing. Now they are (dont argue this fact, just dont. every guild I've apped to expects you cap your vp weekly, and then buy upgrades, otherwise your holding them back).

[ngc2440]

The problem is that the gamestyle of the game has been opened to debate by the designers themselves as the game evolved. Things like LFD, LFR, etc have shown that the designers are inherently devaluing the social dynamic of the game (here's something to quick form groups so you don't need guilds/friends), devaluing the idea of time investment (dungeons should be doable over a half hour lunch with time to spare and BGs should all be 30 minutes or less), and in general making design changes which say that spending time in the game isn't important to get goals accomplished. Maybe the player base asked for it and maybe they didn't, honestly, to me it makes no difference. The simple fact is that the game has moved away from the more traditional grind based play, albeit on an inconsistent basis.

I don't support bots, but the fact is that the idea that automating functions in the game is more fun than actually playing the game to accomplish the same goal is a problem. Does it ruin other player's enjoyment of the game - yes. The fact that the journey isn't fun and only the goal seems to be might be viewed as a bigger problem though.

Oh I agree with you 100%. I just don't see a simple solution to the problem outside of keeping notes about it for the next game they come up with.

I just dont like doing dailies. For that reason alone I am considering getting a bot to do them if I can find one that does so. I never did dailies until now. They were not required to raid which is what i like doing. Now they are (dont argue this fact, just dont. every guild I've apped to expects you cap your vp weekly, and then buy upgrades, otherwise your holding them back).

Either your applying to more of a hardcore guild in which case you should know what entails with that or you have been applying to some crap guilds. Gear from dailies are not mandatory, it is just helpful.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Anyone who believes you has not looked into MMORPGs as a seperate entity from the rest of gaming.

MMOs in the days when WoW came out were about being hard, long, and grinding. EQ actually had severe punishments (level loss) for dying. Heck, the only way to level in EQ was to grind mobs for hours on end.

That old playstyle still lives in a majority of asian MMOs, and the results show.


*I'll give you a hint, everyone except the person at half health is a bot*

WoW went with an easier, less punishing route, and does not have a problem with botting to the level Asian MMOs do. The randomized dailies also help with that, you can never be sure where you'll go. So a bot has to assume all dailies are possible, and thereby go to all 4 temples in one day.

PvP does have a problem with bots, but it always has. IMO it's gotten better since bots are at least semi-intelligent now. Back in the day they would just queue for AB and stand at the Blacksmith the whole game. They wouldn't even fight back if attacked.

[DeadmanWalking]

This whole thread is a sad attempt by botters to justify their use of bots so they can sleep better at night.

[Halabash]

OP, I agree to some of the points you made but i think there is a bigger issue.

I agree with WoW being a big time sink and inherently with any time sink the individual will look and scrutinize the reward harder and harder the closer the goal comes into view, like a college degree and its value by the time you graduate is very similar to gearing for end game and the loot you'll get and its relevancy by the time you get there.

The root issue I believe is that its a computer game and as such it gives a lot of power to the end user, you don't see botting on consoles because the media is and its interface inherently handicap the user. Now comes a compounding effect, the game is pay to play. So the person who pays gets the right to play and ultimately enjoy the content. If you create a bot to automate the mundane gating required by all players who are you hurting? arguably yourself for not experiencing the grind and other players that do not get a chance at those community resources like mining and herb nodes but as you mentioned they have loads of other stuff to do anyway.

-Ok lets not try to justify it. The game says is against the rules because it is ultimately annoying for other players and it encourages unregulated black market trading (cash for gold), which is very illegal in most countries as trading game money or items for actual cash is done tax free, which is wrong and the company will be held liable....or will they?

-Ok lets ban players that bot and do bot like things.
Players that bot are also players that pay. Every account you ban you remove one revenue stream from your bottom line. You as a company did not do anything wrong the player did, you as a company are in business to make money selling your hard work, if you have stumbled upon another "competitive advantage" the only person hurting from this is......OTHER MMOS and similar games that are vying for a piece of the money pie that is online gaming.

When you remove a botter you are potentially removing lots of revenue streams compared to the single one lost for an actual player, so a botter is arguably worth more to Blizzard than a regular player when it comes to numbers. Numbers are important to investors. If the numbers drop then the investors pull out. If the investors pull out then the company has less liquidity(uninvested cash on hand) to handle day to day operations. Paychecks come late for employees, bills get paid later, servers get consolidated because liquidity gives a company the ability cover its outstanding debts and purchase assets which speak toward market share and business agility.

If you make this game a community run program, and remove profit and just make it about the community then you can put some real measures in against botting.

I think bots are cheating but the big picture is if you got leveled by a friend that's cheating, if you bought gear from the ah that was better than what you had that's cheating. No that stuff isn't spelled out in the TOS but the guy that wrote the TOS was not writing the bible either they were looking to protect their investment which is the game from an exploitation that would, could,can and does earn additional money that the said company is missing out on. Essentially botting is kind of copyright infringement and the only person hurt from it or being infringed upon (legally) is Blizzard and who are they going to sue, all their players because its impossible to keep up with the number of people botting? are they going to invest heavily into a witch hunt where they monitor every account for botting or cheating? are they going to chase down every gm notification to botting if everyone assumes the other person is botting without any real evidence other than "they ran in circles during wsg"? are they going write a bot detecting program which uses an algorithm that can detect even the most sophisticated botting actions and then release it in a patch so every client has it to turn all the players into "bot cops", how do they handle false positives?

this goes down a path of persecution for the players whom ultimately will decide if they don't like it they will leave and more than likely come back.
.....so its up to them when they choose to have a problem with it otherwise its just a funny looking wart on the side of their face and everyone like blizzard has one so no big deal.

[Deleted]

This whole thread is a sad attempt by botters to justify their use of bots so they can sleep better at night.

Because botters are leaving their closets, can you imagine topic like this 2-3 years ago ? If Blizzard continues to ignore botting problem, then in two years we'll be discussing which botting program is most effective on these forums.

[yjmark]

Lol but if you don't want to do it... its not fun. That's his point.

Fun to who? Some people do enjoy parts of the game the OP does not enjoy. Why should Blizz change the design? Just because the OP does not like it?

Blizz has already made many changes to the game to reduce the grind needed to do things. It is a million times easier to gear up for raids now when compared to vanilla or TBC. Now, people want to make it even easier? It's a never ending request for Blizz to implement a "push my win button or else I'll bot".

[wow2011]

No, botting is not a natural reaction to game design "flaw", it is the natural reaction to finding a particular grind unenjoyable and only wanting to enjoy the result of the grind.

"Fun" is an extremely a subjective thing and there is no way for Blizzard to create a game that is fun to 100% of the player base. There is no "flaw" here. There is a group of people out there that like dailies, just like there is a group of people out there that like LFR, etc etc. WoW's design is to be diverse enough so different people can find something fun to do when they log on.

So where does bot come into this picture? People use bot to skip the part they do not enjoy and go directly to the part they enjoy. Simple as that. To suggest botting as an indication of a game design "flaw" is ridiculous for a game as vast as WoW. Personally, I hate honor grind. Let's say Blizzard made honor/conquest point earn based on an activity I enjoy, biking. So now everyone can go out and bike IRL everyday and earn honor/conquest to buy pvp gears in WoW. I would love that but how about others? I am dead certain that a group of people will hate this change.

Again, botting is NOT an indication or reaction to design "flaw". It is simply a way for people to skip the grind that they do not enjoy, period. If your point is to say the "flaw" here is Blizzard failed to entertain 10 million+ people with every single aspect of the game in WoW then... I guess you are dead on, Blizzard failed there.

[Drakesong]

This whole thread is a sad attempt by botters to justify their use of bots so they can sleep better at night.

Except that I, OP, don't bot.

---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 08:21 PM ----------

Fun to who? Some people do enjoy parts of the game the OP does not enjoy. Why should Blizz change the design? Just because the OP does not like it?

Blizz has already made many changes to the game to reduce the grind needed to do things. It is a million times easier to gear up for raids now when compared to vanilla or TBC. Now, people want to make it even easier? It's a never ending request for Blizz to implement a "push my win button or else I'll bot".

No, not because I, OP, don't like it, but because a huge percentage of PvPers don't like it.

[Deleted]

I couldn't care less about people botting to get to 90, but please, stop flooding the auction house with your ill-gained items ;-;
PS: Stop botting in BG's, they're completely broken because of you.

[yjmark]

No, not because I, OP, don't like it, but because a huge percentage of PvPers don't like it.

Data for justification? Just because some folks complain about things on a forum, that does not make it a "huge percentage of PvPers".

Also, did you stop to think that bots are probably ruining lower level PvP, which prevents a lot of newer people from enjoying PvP? Probably not, or else you would have realized that bots in PvP are a selfish solution that does not take into account other people who play the game. And defending people who use bots in PvP is pretty silly.

Blizz should never design a game around people who are self centered and have no interest in others having fun.

[blackblade]

Or you could realize that this isn't the gamestyle for you and move on? I am just having trouble understanding not the desire to cheat, but the apologetic nature towards those that cheat. Instead of chastising those that cheat part of this community instead supports said cheaters. There is no denying that certain elements of this game are not super fun to do. But by cheating you cheapen the experience for those that work on it legitimately on the light side and on the worse you make it more difficult for others.

The problem is exactly that.

I think the inherent problem with the honor grind is that it is a foundation to higher-level-pvp. Botting aside for a second, You get lumped into a battleground with 9+ strangers with varying levels of skill, against a similarily rag-tag opposition. Sometimes you will get skilled players on one side, the other, or both sides.

There's no governance of skill (and no penalty for poor play like rated matches) A team of veteran players can be matched against players who are just starting into PVP. Ultimately you get little to no say in the outcome of the match. Sometimes you'll win, because the matchmaker happened to give you a team that knows what they're doing. other times you might lose, because the matchmaker randomly assigned you to fight a team full of considerably more experienced players.

Essentially, If all BG's were rated BGs (even if they didn't require a premade) that affected your personal ratings and your rate of honor income, botting would diminish. It's because there's still a prize for losing that botting can continue to exist.

Botting is not 100% a design fault, I can agree with that. But if the system is broken to the point where it's merely a hurdle to get to the good stuff, it becomes more lucrative to cheat and bot through the boring stuff, and jump right to "the good stuff". (this is doubly true for people who are partial to Arena PVP, as there's no real way to get your honor gear running arenas.)

[Drakesong]

Data for justification? Just because some folks complain about things on a forum, that does not make it a "huge percentage of PvPers".

When you join an AV and 30+ players are bots, you can only come to the conclusion that a significant amount of PvPers bot.
The main point of the topic was to make you all think of why players Bot, and if Blizzard is in part responsible for this. So, if low level pvpers are having their experience exploited, maybe it's because blizzard designed a game where players would take botting into consideration when facing the obligation to get gear.

[Deleted]

I stopped at the fail of the OP to compare a RP-Game to a JnR-Game... D&D has allways been a grind...

[shamozzle]

If they would stop talking about bans and actually do something severe and visible it would have an effect.
But talking about banwaves that no one can actually see is not a preventative measure.

We're at the point where examples must be made or it will continue to spiral out of control.

And let's be honest, at the end of the day do they really care whether its 10 million players or 10 million bots using legitimate CCs?

[ngc2440]

When you join an AV and 30+ players are bots, you can only come to the conclusion that a significant amount of PvPers bot.
The main point of the topic was to make you all think of why players Bot, and if Blizzard is in part responsible for this. So, if low level pvpers are having their experience exploited, maybe it's because blizzard designed a game where players would take botting into consideration when facing the obligation to get gear.

The big problem with your logic is the only way to avoid people feeling the "need" to bot is to give the players everything they want. If there is any sense of grinding people will bot. Which brings us back to square one people are lazy and want rewarded for zero effort.

[Deleted]

I stopped at the fail of the OP to compare a RP-Game to a JnR-Game... D&D has allways been a grind...

D&D as in every pen&paper is never a grind as you dont progress trough repeating the same content over and over
and it also had no "do x 1000 times to get gear so you can start actually playing"

[Deleted]

Do you really think a game that rewards effort (or time spent) with the best rewards is the flaw here? Or is the flaw an ineffective system to catch people cheating the desired reward system?

I wouldn't claim their chosen route for rewards is the best, but what alternative would you use? Maybe you should suggest something on the official forums?

I can understand why some people do it. It's really very simple. You get all the benefit of the best rewards with very minimal effort and avoiding something you potentially don't enjoy doing. Sure there are going to be other reason why people start doing it too, but I'm willing to hazard a guess that what I suggest is the impetus for most.

I'm quite sure there are lots of reason why people don't do it too.

You basically ask "is it Blizzard's fault people bot"?

And in part I agree. Not necessarily because of flawed game design but because of their shrouded and seemingly ineffective methods of battling it. It seems a strange practice to me banning in waves. Surely a multi-billion-dollar company can afford to address this issue if they really wanted to. Hell, if they were desperate they could even hire a few of the people making the bots to help them work on solutions or buy the bot programs/scripts/whatever they are and reverse engineer them if needs be. But they don't. And they do ban in small waves. I wonder why that is? How they operate with regard to this issue certainly raises some questions for me.

Blizzard aren't the only contributer to the problem though. We also have the people using the bots and the people selling or making the bots. None of the groups are blameless. Any one of these groups could stop it, but they don't because they all get something out of it. Blizzard get continued subs they might otherwise lose because of their chosen reward method. Botters get the reward whilst bypassing a gathering system they don't enjoy and the bot makers get money (in some cases), noteriety (in some places) and to also bypass the system if they happen to play themselves (which is where I assume the botting and bot creation originated).

I can't see it being "fixed" soon. The best anyone can hope for is continued numberless "ban waves" that never seem to catch that one Priest you've watched run into the middle of WSG and start smacking people with his staff for the last 3 years.

The only suggestion I'd give to those not botting and happy with the current reward system is to get used to the bots. Expect more even. That or quit. There is nothing you alone can do about it. It sucks, but it's true.

[Zappidoo]

I've been playing this game since Vanilla and have played every expansion when they came out and have taken many breaks in between. I'm now a 29 year old male and a fair amount has changed in my real life and in my gaming life. When I had originally started playing Wow coming off of years of UO I would put in as much time as I could into the game. My family owned a business so I "worked" but mostly just reaped the benefits. 2 weeks b4 TBC dropped I decided I really wanted to play a warlock since my mage just seemed bad in comparison. That's when I botted my first toon, I did it because I didn't think I could get to 60 b4 release and I was dumb enough to think I could be server first 70 when it did drop if I could just make it to 60 fast enough. We all know how that went "World Server is Down". The key bit of info here is even playing 12+ hrs a day I didn't feel I could do it in "TIME".

The biggest underlying issue here is WOW rewards time spent in game. The more time you have the better the gear, reputation, honor. This is become the norm and is excepted as such in WOW. Playing 12+ hrs a day is not realistic in the Real World. The reason I gave some background info on me in the beginning is I used to be just like a lot of you. If you don't have the time then don't play. If you can't be as hardcore as me then you shouldn't get to enjoy X, Y, Z. It took growing up and being forced out on my own to get a real grasp of how much time I spent playing the game and doing the same thing over and over again. Having the ability to sit in front of a PC for 12+ hrs is not skillfull, you've been turned into a human bot. It does however keep people playing the game and that's the goal. Blizzards business model is simple, If you want to keep having fun and be able to do what everyone else is doing you must maximize your playing time. Since fun is generally the purpose of playing a game of course people are going to grind their little hearts out.

So moving forward here I am all grown up, working 2nd shift 3-11:30 5 days a week, I still play Wow a fair amount about 6 hrs a night and I can't realistically stay competitive with out sacrificing either time in RL or something I enjoy in game. I had to take time off work when expansion dropped to I could level fast enough to start raiding and a lil more time off to grind some gear/rep. I would do your typical 3-3.5 hr raid and then pass out trying to do dailies to cap honor.

Is this realistic? It was in my mind when I had no job and no real responsibilities. Now things are different, but the reality is Wow is not reality. It sort of disheartening to see some of the posts saying don't play the game. Are you fucking serious I pay 15 a month just like the next shmuck, does it mean I should get to enjoy the game any less than the guy who gets to sit a home all day playing..... NO!

Getting back to botting a fair amount of it is done for profit and while I don't exactly condone it, it is a necessity and makes Blizzard money. ( Mat Farmers, gold sellers, etc). However I have to agree with botting to bypass what Blizzard has done to keep us playing, paying, and having fun. I can't raid anymore because raid times changed, so I will probably go back to pvp, that being said do you think i'm going to spend the little free time I have during the next 2-3 weeks note having fun in bgs because pvp is gear based and im gonna get slaughter or am I gonna find a good bot to do it?

Nothing in this world is as simple as black and white and for some of you unfortunately you will never come to that realization sitting in from of a pc 12+ a day. I used to like to think like that and then I had to grow up. So before you go spouting off at the mouth maybe take some time to consider the individual and his circumstances b4 so quickly judging.

[Haven]

Yes. Games are played to have fun and to challenge yourself. Devs want players to play longer, and they put grind before fun. Players naturally don't want boring grind (because it only challenges their patience), hence they utilize bots.

Players don't believe devs which say it's fun to be stomped on by a fully-geared PvPer.

But no one's asking us how we want WoW to be done.