Evisceate

[Apolyc]

I am doing my dailies and i thought they were going slow, so i scrolled over my eviscerate to see the tooltip (havent done that since early cata) and the damage is 24,111-24849 for 5 points. Now, i dont have the best gear but i dont have the worst, but i cant help but feel that is extremely low based based on the health pools now, the time it takes to get 5 points (not long but not the point) the fact that is before armor, and especially the fact that other classes can EASILY do way more than that with other basic spells. I mean this is supposed to be a finisher. I dont want it to be where i use it and i get a 300k eviscerate. Im not sure if its an attack power thing or if the base is just low. Is this really how a finisher should be?

[Flalia4]

I am doing my dailies and i thought they were going slow, so i scrolled over my eviscerate to see the tooltip (havent done that since early cata) and the damage is 24,111-24849 for 5 points. Now, i dont have the best gear but i dont have the worst, but i cant help but feel that is extremely low based based on the health pools now, the time it takes to get 5 points (not long but not the point) the fact that is before armor, and especially the fact that other classes can EASILY do way more than that with other basic spells. I mean this is supposed to be a finisher. I dont want it to be where i use it and i get a 300k eviscerate. Im not sure if its an attack power thing or if the base is just low. Is this really how a finisher should be?

What spec are you?

[Deleted]

That's fairly representative of Rogue as a whole at the moment.

[ImpTaimer]

It's low, and it's even lower with armor/damage reduction.

They basically turned combo-points finishers into glorified core spammables, as building combo points is relatively easier compared to the past where finishers had to be worth the buildup. You're using them to refund something instead of using them to expunge them.

[Sturmbringe]

Spec Assassination.

Simply put, Subtletly is broken atm, and Combat is a raid-only spec for boss encounters with cleave mechanics.

The Rogue community has given ample feedback to Blizzard regarding how Subletly sucks and they chose to ignore it.

Going assassination will give you the added benefit of even managing to solo kill someone in PvP, except if they are Warrior or Shadow Priest or Loladin.

[ImpTaimer]

Spec Assassination.

Simply put, Subtletly is broken atm, and Combat is a raid-only spec for boss encounters with cleave mechanics.

The Rogue community has given ample feedback to Blizzard regarding how Subletly sucks and they chose to ignore it.

Going assassination will give you the added benefit of even managing to solo kill someone in PvP, except if they are Warrior or Shadow Priest or Loladin.

Do you understand why Assassination is good? Because of the amount of unbiased (not weapon related) passive damage it brings compared to the other specs. Poisons do a lot of damage for the entire class this expansion, not just Assassination. Assassination just gets the best synergy with poisons, thereby having the best dps when poisons are the optimal source of damage (which is pretty much every non-cleave situation). In addition, it has the easiest rotation and has an actual execute mechanic.

Combat provides a lot of physical damage, but its rotation is overcomplicated, combo point generation is unreliable, damage finishers are reduced to a cooldown reduction gimmick, no execute mechanic. The upside to this spec is the amazing cleave damage and the cooldown reduction. One quality of improvement I'd give Combat is replace Expose Armor with Revealing Strike.

Subtlety is suppose to provide a lot of burst and bleed damage, but again its rotation is overcomplicated, finishers don't do nearly enough damage (compared to Backstab/poisons), bleeds don't do nearly enough damage, and no execute mechanic. The upside to this spec is the amazing passive energy/combo generation. One quality of improvement I'd give Subtlety is bring back Eviscerate refreshing Rupture.

[Carp The Fish]

I'm sorry, Combat has a overcomplicated rotation? That's hilarious. They SIMPLIFIED it with 5.0, I don't see how it's going to become any more simple unless they turn SND into a 60-minute buff and Expose Armor into Revealing Strike.
AND the only difference in the primary rotation between Subtlety and Combat is that Subtlety uses Hemorrhage instead of Revealing Strike and Subtlety has to be standing behind the boss.
I'm not trying to be mean here, I just think calling Combat "overcomplicated" is a gross overstatement.

Back on topic, yes, Eviscerate is pretty weak. It's been weak since Cataclysm. The only time it hasn't been weak is if you had access to the Fangs of the Father during 4.3, in which case it was BRIEFLY spammable.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, Combat has a overcomplicated rotation? That's hilarious. They SIMPLIFIED it with 5.0, I don't see how it's going to become any more simple unless they turn SND into a 60-minute buff and Expose Armor into Revealing Strike.

I don't think he means the rotation itself more than the mechanics behind it. While it's still not complicated, it's stupid. Besides the usual keeping-an-eye-on SnD and CDs you gotta keep an eye on RvS, BG and Rupture in order to get optimal DPS. It's boring to play combat because most of what you do is just to keep all your buffs and debuffs up rather than actually using them. Out of the entire combat arsenal, it feels like there's only two abilities that combat actually inflicts damage with by himself, which is SS and ironically Eviscerate, despite it's shitty damage.

[Garbagemanx]

Spec Assassination.

Simply put, Subtletly is broken atm, and Combat is a raid-only spec for boss encounters with cleave mechanics.

The Rogue community has given ample feedback to Blizzard regarding how Subletly sucks and they chose to ignore it.

Going assassination will give you the added benefit of even managing to solo kill someone in PvP, except if they are Warrior or Shadow Priest or Loladin.

Wrong. Sub is still the best spec for pvp. Idk why everyone is the forum has given terrible info. Evis still crit for 70-100k. Stack mastery. Not hard

[Verain]

Well, sub is the least bad spec for pvp. With correct gearing and find weakness, your 5 combo point on the global finisher can in fact compete with off global moves like heroic strike!

[D3athsting]

The Rogue community has given ample feedback to Blizzard regarding how Subletly sucks and they chose to ignore it.

They didn't ignore community, indeed as a response they nerfed SV from 20% to 16% dmg bonus, GC never ceases to amaze me

[Lemons]

You can't just look at a tooltip and say "well that's how much damage it does." You're not taking into account Revealing Strike...which is going to increase that damage by 35%, or insight, which at Deep Insight you're going to get another +30% damage boost.

Stay combat. It's the best spec for dailies, dungeons, and cleave fights. About the only area Assassination wins is on single target raid encounters. In all other areas it's inferior.

[Verain]

Combat's rotation is definitely more complex than assassination's.

For grinding and leveling, your number one buddy is the glyph of deadly momentum. Quest with that.

Combat and Assassination both seem effective for solo pve. Combat's flurry is quite valuable there, and will casually spread damage to other targets, and spree is very helpful in most situations. Assassination is just fine too, however- you'll have good energy with ruptured targets dying and good aoe damage with fan, and a decent single target setup that combat doesn't normally match.

Sub is only acceptable while cooldowns are running. I also recommend glyphing cheapshot if you are running it solo, because you get a final backstab in there. The problem with sub is that you can either run setup with rupture or open with garrote, and then do your thing. Simply put, your moves work at opposite ends- you have decent damage out of an opener, but you need one of a pool of bleeds to do a good job, and you have a positional attack which requires a target to be stunned, but your stun costs you a lot of damage. It's by no means bad, but it's easily worse for all non-pvp solo purposes than the other two. It's also harder to run effectively in a dungeon or raid, in part because of how it scales with agi (it's very thirsty for it).

[AceofHarts]

You can't just look at a tooltip and say "well that's how much damage it does." You're not taking into account Revealing Strike...which is going to increase that damage by 35%, or insight, which at Deep Insight you're going to get another +30% damage boost.

Stay combat. It's the best spec for dailies, dungeons, and cleave fights. About the only area Assassination wins is on single target raid encounters. In all other areas it's inferior.

combats rampup and cyclic damage means its one of the worst specs for dailies. dont know what your takling about.

and only on single target fights? so thats lets count.
Feng
Spirit Binder
Spirit Kings
Elegon
Will
Voice of the Empress
Blade Lord
Empress
Guardians (yes cleave will do more damage, but the self healing to 100% on death negates that, and your lowering your single target)
Tsulong
Lei She (or w/e the elemental is)
Sha of FEar

thats 12 of 16 bosses. but "only" single target encounters.

[Deleted]

combats rampup and cyclic damage means its one of the worst specs for dailies. dont know what your takling about.

and only on single target fights? so thats lets count.
Feng
Spirit Binder
Spirit Kings
Elegon
Will
Voice of the Empress
Blade Lord
Empress
Guardians (yes cleave will do more damage, but the self healing to 100% on death negates that, and your lowering your single target)
Tsulong
Lei She (or w/e the elemental is)
Sha of FEar

thats 12 of 16 bosses. but "only" single target encounters.

For dailies questing its actually better than assa: Combat got the best burst for 1mio+ mobs and you really destroy anything with KS which is up often enough. Its true that you do pathetic damage on singletargets with no CDs, but then just pull another one and use BF.

[Kael]

For dailies questing its actually better than assa: Combat got the best burst for 1mio+ mobs and you really destroy anything with KS which is up often enough. Its true that you do pathetic damage on singletargets with no CDs, but then just pull another one and use BF.

Exactly true. Pack an agi proc clicky to make it more silly. trinket/KS -> AR/SB can burst anything down faster than my lock so far.

About how hard evisc actually hits: try it in game in both specs, at max level, in at least heroic gear. It's not that wimpy, it's just unexciting.

[Verain]

I will also agree (mostly reiteration) that combat is a very good spec for dailies. The "cyclical nature" of it doesn't even matter- you don't need red insight, and the ludicous amount of cleavable mobs put it way ahead of other specs. Killing Spree is very large damage on a small cooldown, and should you be up against a real target, all cooldowns combined plus red insight should give you a substantial burst edge over mutilate. And long stun is certainly helpful too.

[Angryst]

Subtlety's rotation is overcomplicated?....they dumbed it down for this expac. Its retard easy now. I actually like how it played in Cata where I had stuff to do and it took a little more skill. I agree with making Evis refresh SnD but that would make it even dumber at this point.
I use Assa as a daily grinder. Combat does have really good burst for single mobs on dailies but if you need to "burst" down any mob in a daily then I'm at a loss. Poisons and dispatch along with the energy regen from rupture makes dailies as Mutilate easy.

[Kael]

I will also agree (mostly reiteration) that combat is a very good spec for dailies. The "cyclical nature" of it doesn't even matter- you don't need red insight, and the ludicous amount of cleavable mobs put it way ahead of other specs. Killing Spree is very large damage on a small cooldown, and should you be up against a real target, all cooldowns combined plus red insight should give you a substantial burst edge over mutilate. And long stun is certainly helpful too.

I can't think of a daily quest that needs stuns o.O maybe the Greater Mantid if you make the mistake of bringing a companion who aggros everything in 20 yards?

Angryst - no one I know needs to burst down a mob, but when it dies in <10 seconds instead of 30, I notice and it feels nicer, and being done with dailies is... being done with dailies.

[AceofHarts]

ok disclaimer about my post: sure. with cd's combat is better. that said, i hate being effective once every 3 minutes and useless the rest of the time.