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  1. #61
    Mindflay while running! that would be nice

  2. #62
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neekodango View Post
    Mindflay while running! that would be nice
    Would be nice, wouldn't be a significant DPS upgrade - especcially on single target fights where we are lacking the most anyways. The spec needs an actual damage buff, probably to our single target spells - but also possibly to our dots, which are like some of the weakest in the game now, I think?


    Edit:
    I was thinking about what I would like to see to fix it tonight, and I think the solution I'd like the most is a buff to both Mind Blast and Mind Flay. A buff to Mind Blast would be nice because our burst is kind of low right now, to be honest - and especcially in pvp - buffing blast is a minor help to that - but more importantly, it rewards players for keeping MB on cooldown, which I think is the right behaviour to encourage, and it's largely a single target buff. It would also buff Divine Insight, which I think that whole talent tier could probably receive a bit of revision.

    A buff to MB is also a buff to DI which is probably a good move since ToF can quickly outpace it in practice, it doesn't take very high uptime to overcome the 5% proc chance on DI. In semi-related news, I'd like it if they added a passive effect to Power Infusion to make it competitive, since no one really wants it - the shaman spell Ancestral Swiftness would be a good model I think - tacking 5% passive haste on Power Infusion would make it pretty hot, and an interesting choice for gearing around - helping less geared spriests use it to reach the haste breakpoints - and also giving us the option of taking it when we want a DPS cooldown (because shadow has none since we lost Archangel / p4t13, and yet as it stands - PI sucks).

    A secondary buff to shadow would have to happen to Mind Flay. Shadow is 15% short of top single target specs, but if we call it 10% for easy math and because I doubt blizzard will want to suddenly make us go from one of the worst specs to one the best, let's try 10% all-around damage buff. Single target, Mind Blast makes up like 10% of our damage - to get a 10% overall damage buff, Mind Blast would need to do double damage - that's not going to happen - so splitting some of the buff up with Mind Flay is a good idea.

    Single target, Mind Flay makes up like (20%?) or our damage (I'm doing this out of my head right now, I haven't bothered to look in awhile), so a 50% buff to Mind Flay alone would be a 10% buff to us overall - but I want to see a buff to MB as well here, so let's split it up a bit.

    A 50% buff to Mind Blast, and a 25% buff to Mind Flay would bring Shadow's single target damage up 10% overall, while only barely increasing our potential multi-dot damage (by also buffing DI), making DI worth about 4500 DPS - ToF would still quickly surpass it in add fights, while Power Infusion would be around equal to DI in burst phase fights (ie. Spine of Deathwing), and probably competitive (or just slightly below still, but not massively below) in single target fights if the passive 5% haste was added to PI.

    In PvP, a 50% buff to Mind Blast sounds pretty great, but given it would only result in Mind Blasts critting for like 50-60k - it's still only a fraction of the 200k+ crits some classes can score in pvp (frost mages, warriors, destro and demo locks, hunters). Mind Blast currently hits for less at 90 in pvp than it did at 85, that just feels kind of wrong - so I'd be happy to see it buffed, but I really doubt the other classes would start complaining about it. An MB+DP burst would be 50-60k + 80k if they both crit (which has about a 1% chance of occuring in full shadow BiS pvp gear) - and our full burst even in that case still wouldn't hit anywhere near as hard as the burst classes I previously listed are currently hitting.

    I think this buff is appropriate in both pvp and pve, and solves the single target pve problem without breaking pvp, or making our multi-dot too strong (which isn't a risk right now when we're the worst multi-dotter).

    Edit: I highlighted my suggested changes because I looked at my post and realized I'm doing my 4am sleepy rambling thing where I express everything in prolific and largely unnecessary sentences, which consist of additional fragments and unnecessary long words that serve only to make the post resemble the fevered ramblings of a syphilitic brain. You know, that thing I do
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2012-12-03 at 12:06 PM.
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  3. #63
    Deleted
    I fully agree with Yvaelle, This is what we need. I was omw home just now and was thinking about different ways we could be a better class with a better specc to post it in this thread, but you just summoned it up, And i hope this is something blizzard wont ignore but look into it and give us some info atleast, will they figure something out, will they not do anything? -that would be really nice so one could know what to expect, Goodtimes or just to keep this up.

  4. #64
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    I would love if Power Infusion became a viable alternative to the other talents in that tier. I felt like Shadow always lacked a damage cooldown, and was ecstatic when I saw PI would become a talent in MoP, but was sorely disappointed when I realized it isn't even worth speccing into.

    A damage cooldown you can stack with encounter mechanics, or during crucial burnphases is something shadow really needs to be a well rounded damage spec imo. We have it, but it's just not good enough.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    A 50% buff to Mind Blast, and a 25% buff to Mind Flay would bring Shadow's single target damage up 10% overall,
    Once again, buffing MF would automatically require a buff to FDCL and SW:I.

    If you go further and extend your burst combinaton to your now buffed FDCL - it will hurt.

  6. #66
    FDCL is more then mandatory in pvp @ high mastery rating (+3k buff + lot from gear) so who cares if its devalued a little in pve.
    Furthermore, its already quite useless on 4+ targets scenario, it has its place, leave it.

    SW:I its...who cares about SW:I anyway.

    Give me MF and MB buffs ASAP!

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    FDCL is more then mandatory in pvp @ high mastery rating (+3k buff + lot from gear) so who cares if its devalued a little in pve.
    Furthermore, its already quite useless on 4+ targets scenario, it has its place, leave it.

    SW:I its...who cares about SW:I anyway.

    Give me MF and MB buffs ASAP!
    /facepalm. Just...no... You didn't make a single correct statement.

    I do like the passive haste on pi idea tho. But like everyone keeps bringing up. You can't buff mf or mb without buffing their counter parts, FDCL and tof.

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  8. #68
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    what we need is quite simple actually... we need twist of faith to be a passive spell that proccs everytime we cast mindflay. they can even make it procc only after a full mindlfay is casted for pvp reasons.

    we also need something with a 2/3min timer that gives 3 orbs cause starting a boss without orbs is stupid. the days of the puntable marmot are over...
    Last edited by siafu; 2012-12-03 at 08:22 PM.

  9. #69
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    /facepalm. Just...no... You didn't make a single correct statement.

    I do like the passive haste on pi idea tho. But like everyone keeps bringing up. You can't buff mf or mb without buffing their counter parts, FDCL and tof.
    A 25% buff to Mind Flay's damage would make it better than Mind Spike I think, but not as good as FDCL procs - it would lower the DPS gain of FDCL however because we assume FDCL procs replace MF GCDs (but in pvp for example, they often dont, you use FDCL procs when you are moving and very rarely get to MF). So, FDCL would still be the most popular pvp choice (not that Mindbender is bad by any means).

    I don't think there is a risk of FDCL sucking though in PvE suddenly - but if it does, a slight increase in proc chance (say 15% chance buffed to 20% chance to proc) would easily make up for it if it did. I could do the math I suppose on it - but it should just be a more or less straight 33% increase in DPS gained from FDCL without really increasing our burst or the like (it wouldn't truly be 33% though, because a higher proc rate would result in more lost procs due to higher priority GCDs of course). Even if left alone though, the worst case scenario is that while Mindbender is better single target, FDCL would still quickly outpace it on multi-dot (and possibly helter skelter/high movement fights) - so it still serves its purpose.

    Of course, the talent that really desperately needs a change is Insanity, which won't work until they completely redesign it IMO. Easiest fix there would be to give it a cooldown, not have it wipe Pain off the target, and buff the damage significantly (hence the cooldown, I'd like to see something like 45 seconds) - with the spell doing more damage the longer Pain has been active on the target. You still have to time it to the end of Pain, but now suddenly its a cool sort of Curse of Doom kind of thing (except more active on our part).

    Twist of Fate becomes better than DI on some fights quite quickly already - but ToF is the easiest to buff if it fell behind - a slight buff to the cooldown or the damage bonus is an easy adjustment to the talents DPS provided. I'd much rather deal with ToF lagging behind PI/DI, than deal with our single target damage being too low and PI (and I suppose also Insanity) being completely unused - but - if we were to advocate these changes, it would probably be smart to point out to the devs that we're concerned about talents like ToF and FDCL falling behind as a consequence and they should look into them.
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  10. #70
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    SW:I -could work if instead of consuming the swp dot, it refresh it, thats how they should use that

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    A 25% buff to Mind Flay's damage would make it better than Mind Spike I think, but not as good as FDCL procs - it would lower the DPS gain of FDCL however because we assume FDCL procs replace MF GCDs (but in pvp for example, they often dont, you use FDCL procs when you are moving and very rarely get to MF). So, FDCL would still be the most popular pvp choice (not that Mindbender is bad by any means).

    I don't think there is a risk of FDCL sucking though in PvE suddenly - but if it does, a slight increase in proc chance (say 15% chance buffed to 20% chance to proc) would easily make up for it if it did. I could do the math I suppose on it - but it should just be a more or less straight 33% increase in DPS gained from FDCL without really increasing our burst or the like (it wouldn't truly be 33% though, because a higher proc rate would result in more lost procs due to higher priority GCDs of course). Even if left alone though, the worst case scenario is that while Mindbender is better single target, FDCL would still quickly outpace it on multi-dot (and possibly helter skelter/high movement fights) - so it still serves its purpose.
    I strongly disagree, obviously there would have to be testing and a whole bunch of math behind it, but on beta they had to buff FDCL multiple times because MF was a better use of a GCD in PvE. I think 25% is too strong, especially with how well MF scales with int. Buffing the proc chance wouldn't make it a better talent because we are talking GCD trade off. If you are strictly talking about a patchwork/ultra type fight, you are talking about about optimizing GCD usage which is what makes a good player good. And buffing the proc chance wouldn't really make it outweigh a MF. It would buff it on any movement based fight and in a real life situation might make it better, so I understand why you are saying to buff it. It really depends on how trivial fights become with the buff and how the new fights in 5.2 will be. So it could be a way to off set the MF buff.

    One thing I really find enjoyable right now with shadow in this expansion is the ability to switch talents on a fight by fight basis that allows and if they made FDCL a better choice on movement based fights and MB better on light movement/ultrax I'm fine with that.

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  12. #72
    Fluffy Kitten Yvaelle's Avatar
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    When FDCL's proc was just a regular mind spike that didn't wipe dots - it was trash, but when they made FDCL give MsK's + 50% bonus damage, I think that ended up taking the DPET well above Mind Flay.

    Just punched a dummy for a few casts, with 23,421 spellpower my average FDCL non-crit was 60k, my average mind flay tick was only 17k, mind flay ticks three times in 2.4 seconds, FDCL proc is a single GCD, so MF's dpet is like 25,500 versus FDCL's 60k (assuming we're not gcd capped yet for that dpet). A 25% buff to MF would bring its dpet to 31,875 - but still way below the like 60k dpet on an FDCL proc - it's still going to always be the right call to ùse FDCL procs when you have them over Mind Flay, even with a 25% buff - hell we could double MF's damage and only then start worrying about FDCL procs not being worthwhile - MF apparently blows right now!
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    /facepalm. Just...no... You didn't make a single correct statement.

    I do like the passive haste on pi idea tho. But like everyone keeps bringing up. You can't buff mf or mb without buffing their counter parts, FDCL and tof.
    What the...

    Could you please add some sense in that reply of your?

    Seriously, can u make me a video managing like 10 regular dots, refreshing them, firing MBlasts and plagues, while you actually take any hit of advantage from procced mind spike and yet finding time to searing all the targets as well (yeah, mind sear got pumped quite much).I REALLY want to see that.

    Oh, maybe its asking for some lovely stuff like a harder hitting MBs and less painfull mindflays that bother you?

    Definding a talent wich already have loads of use (movements fight, MANDATORY on PVP, really strong on 2x or 3x multitarget) at the cost to spit on VERY NEEDED (i should say DRAMATICALLY NEEDED) buffs to our GODDAMN FILLER SPELL and on our 6second CD nuke is a laughable attitude.

    Even with the current spell values, u need like twice as strong flay to even make a slight, tiny, microscopic question about wich is better if a procced MSpike or a full 2.4 baseline channel.

    My turn to facepalm. Hard one.


    p.s.: Insanity can even die as a choice with the current model. Care to disagree with this?

  14. #74

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Cham View Post
    I've already stated we get beaten on a single target encounter, but that our utility atleast makes up for it. So no, I don't beat mages on Feng.
    I do on other fights though, and so should you.
    On top of this we don't have to compete for a raidspot with the mages and warlocks really. We compete against Moonkin/Ele cause they bring the same buff we do. Now tell me, how are you doing compared to them?
    Utility makes up for it? Tell me how please.

    Bet ur one of the shadowpriests that has PoM in their "rotations" (yes i read it somewhere on MMO that a shadowpriest was using PoM on cd)

  16. #76
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    Im afraid, there is bug in simcraft... there were no spell changes for SP and we gain 5% dps up?

    Look at Synapse Springs uptime...

  17. #77
    I'm not into theorycraft, and I do not play at a level in which I can express 'rational' opinions about SPs' performance, but there are a few things that I would change (excluding 'flavour' thing like a baseline Mind Control :P).

    1) A reworked Shadow Orbs resource system – Many spriest during cataclysm hoped that it would evolve into a kind of soul shard system (spell-improving mechanic), instead we found ourselves with a slow holy power-like resource used by only two spells.

    2) More emphasis on dots, less on DD spells – The description of the spec says that we use 'especially dots', but they feel more like a DD-proc-engine and/or very weak. For our single target problem I would prefer a new dot that can be cast only on one target at a time than buffing our direct damage spell – we already do the majority of our damage with those spells, I really don't want the dots to feel even less relevant... I don't know, maybe FDCL could morph MSp into a one-target-only stackable dot?

    2b) A dot spread mechanic – I know that it's nothing 'new', but when classes like hunters, mages and warriors can spread dots (and maybe doing great thanks to cleaves etc), as a shadow priest I feel a bit like my 'specialization' was stolen. Spamming Mind Sear while now effective is a bit dull and lacks that 'dot spec feel'. I know that it would interact heavily with FDCL and DI, but as it was already suggested maybe we would spread a 'not procing' version of the dots, or something similar.

    2c) A reworked Devouring Plague – It's a big nuke, but it doesn't feel like a dot imho. This change imho shallowed the 'dot nature' of this spec. Maybe it would feel more intriguing if it was a long lasting powerful dot?


    I know that dots are 'dangerous' because of multidotting, but there must be a balance somwhere... I'd really want to see them as the main source of damage on single target fight.

    Sorry if this post is mostly opinions/brainstorming. :P

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by zirgalan View Post
    If we didn't get a single target buff already at this latest patch, I think we can now forget about it.

    We are the worst dps class in game,period.
    I know there's other specs below us like balance druid or assa rogue, but those at least are classes with another dps spec, and they can change spec.

    Blizzard failed hard on this expansion to balance classes.
    Simulation indicates lots of classes with 20k+, 15k+, 10k+ dps more than us...and that's a lot and it's unbearable. Never saw such a big difference in previous expansions or raid content.

    Personally, I raided hardcore before and now I play more casual, still I'm able to top dps most of the fights on my current guild progress.
    But players start to improve and now since 5.1 I went below some who were always below me.

    It's good to know they are improving but it's also frustrating to know that it's a balance problem and not a real improve.

    I imagine on hardcore guilds, where normally all players push the maximum from their classes. If every1 pushes the best out of their class, you as shadow priest simply suck.
    And I bet some players are benched because of this huge dps difference between classes.
    It's not nearly as gloom and doom as you make it sound. The T14H SimC information is HIGHLY misleading and SPriest is hardly the worst DPS in the game. Any evidence for or against this kind of statement is mostly anecdotal, but a quick glance at RaidBots shows us mostly middle of the pack (though we do excel in some encounters). (And yes, I realize RaidBots is no more accurate than SimC for the same purposes, but it does give a better idea of what actual Priests are ACTUALLY doing.) Personally, I have no problem topping meters in my 25M guild, regardless of gear. If you invest time in perfecting your rotation and learning which talents to use on which encounters, you shouldn't have a whole lot of problems doing your job and pulling reasonable numbers. If you're being benched as a SPriest because of your DPS, it's not a class issue...it's a personal play style issue.

    That said, I wouldn't mind a better choice for a level 45 talent than SW:I as it's currently completely useless in its current incarnation. (Surely developers know this by now, so hopefully this will be something addressed in 5.2.) A burst CD would be nice, but not necessarily essential. A slight tweaking of MF might fix a lot of the "single target" issues, but I don't want to see them push us over the top because we may end up sacrificing more in the long run.

  19. #79
    The Lightbringer Keosen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I have no problem topping meters in my 25M guild, regardless of gear. If you invest time in perfecting your rotation and learning which talents to use on which encounter
    We already talked a lot about your kind of people, search the previous pages.
    The fact that you outdpsing 15-16 others is not because you are good butt it's most likely because they suck.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon
    I have no problem topping meters in my 25M guild, regardless of gear. If you invest time in perfecting your rotation and learning which talents to use on which encounter
    We already talked a lot about your kind of people, search the previous pages.
    The fact that you outdpsing 15-16 others is not because you are good butt it's most likely because they suck.
    I'm glad you're able to make an assessment of my entire guild by my own personal ability to pull competitive DPS with my Priest. Clearly this has everything to do with my guild being awful and nothing to do with the class being proportionately underpowered. If anything, wouldn't "my kind of people" benefit the most from a buff, since we'd be doing even better DPS than we are already?

    Perhaps it was my mistake for posting here and not agreeing with the hive mind that seems convinced that because they can't pull competitive DPS themselves that it's clearly the class' fault and not their own personal shortcomings. I stand by my assertion that things aren't nearly as bad a lot of people in this thread would like to think.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2012-12-04 at 03:15 PM.

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