Should father have any say about abortion?

[semaphore]

Well fine then, slipping something into her food/drink that's designed to terminate the pregnancy. Would that be the responsible thing to do? I think not.

That's also physical assault. It's like you can't comprehend the idea of not attacking or controlling women.

[Garkanh]

well, the women are the ones having to carry it in 9 month, give birth, probably ruining their body in some cases, and most of the time, take care of the child if the father leaves them.

my girlfriend was pregnant ones. while i wanted the child, we couldn't afford having it. she was in college, i was working as a blacksmith apprentice. would be almost impossible for her to stay in school if she had the child, so she desided to get an abortion, and i said it was up to her, and that i would support her decision whatever she chose to do.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Well fine then, slipping something into her food/drink that's designed to terminate the pregnancy. Would that be the responsible thing to do? I think not.

Poisoning is also illegal. It doesn't matter how you try to do it because you're still also asserting control over her body.

[Forfax]

I'm a feminist. I said very much near the start that I believe men should have an option of giving up all parental rights along with responsibilities.

That is progress i suppose. ;cx

[Nathane]

Mages needed the nerf.

[semaphore]

I think the problem here is that it's a double edge sword from the man's perspective.

If he wants to keep the child, and is prepared to care for, love and raise it, but the woman doesn't and terminates it, he loses.
If he doesn't want the child, wants it terminated but the women chooses to keep it, he has to pay child support (or have a child he doesn't want/love) and still loses.

If a man wants a child he can find someone willing to bear one. All it takes is some sperm from him. Women are forced to have a tremendous investment of time, energy and emotions over 9 months. It is an unequal situation born of nature, and there is no use trying to pretend it isn't. But your second point would be why I say men should be able to give up all parental rights and responsibilities at the start of the pregnancy.

Once again, I agree with the opinion that a women shouldn't have things forced upon her body. But if both parties irresponsibly create a child they didn't intend, the final decision rests with the woman because it's her body. Once again, not necessarily wrong, but not really right either.

Personally, I feel abortions should be regulated, similar to adoption... but maybe that's because I know a girl who's had 9 abortions before she was 30, and another with 5 kids to 5 dad's who's getting so much from child support and social welfare she doesn't need to work a day in her life again.

Personally I think 5 child are a handful to handle and would pretty much amount to a full time job. But what do I know, clearly taking care of children doesn't cost time, money and energy, not like paying $300 a month.

[Forfax]

Mages needed the nerf.

They still need some nerfs , perhap shadow priest also?

[Vuljatar]

That's also physical assault. It's like you can't comprehend the idea of not attacking or controlling women.

You deliberately ignore my point over and over again, and take the opportunity to personally insult me at the same time. And you wonder why we think you're a crazy feminazi.

If the man can't unilaterally abort the fetus that is 50% his, the woman should likewise be unable to abort the fetus that is 50% hers. That's the bottom line here.

[Deleted]

Birth controls can fail. Hell, you could be on BC AND have a guy wearing a condom and STILL get pregnant... though the chance is super, super low, admittedly. Ideally couples would be using two forms - one on each end.

However, there is truth in "if you don't want to pay, don't play". You should remember that sex is FOR pregnancy and birth control CAN fail before you run around having wild sex for the fun of it. Is it fair that a guy can't control a fetus? Perhaps not. But it's most definitely not fair to say that he can control something that is utterly dependent on the woman and utterly unable to live on it's own because "it's part his".. when his part was an involuntary part of sex and ends with it.

I'm not arguing whose right it is to control a fetus. I'm simply saying that the production of one is just as much the woman's fault as the mans.
Currently it appears that women are clueless in the production part of the pregnancy and are therefor liberated from responsibility on that point.
It's always the man who's at blame for a pregnancy unwanted or not. Women are so victimized in this aspect that it's becoming disgusting.
You said it best yourself :

But it's most definitely not fair to say that he can control something that is utterly dependent on the woman and utterly unable to live on it's own because "it's part his".

Without the woman our sperm is simply a stain on the sheets. Why should we bare any responsibility at all for any pregnancy?
It's so very obvious that it's the woman's choice and right alone to decide whether or not she'll become pregnant, with or without the mans consent.

[semaphore]

That is progress i suppose. ;cx

Not really. Not exactly a new idea. Most of us have expressed something similar (Wells I think is the exception).

[Deleted]

not a deciding vote, but if he wishes abortion he shouldn't be forced to support child if mother refuses.

just my view.

i know i wouldn't support a child i didn't want.

[semaphore]

You deliberately ignore my point over and over again, and take the opportunity to personally insult me at the same time.

I don't know what your point is. Over and over again you just talk about assaulting women.

If the man can't unilaterally abort the fetus that is 50% his, the woman should likewise be unable to abort the fetus that is 50% hers. That's the bottom line here.

No, the bottom line is that a woman has the absolute right to decide whether to keep a fetus inside her own body. You don't get to shove a knife into someone and say "that knife's mine, so you have no right to remove it from yourself". You want the fetus after an abortion? Talk to her and perhaps they can have it arranged.

[skrump]

I'm a feminist. I said very much near the start that I believe men should have an option of giving up all parental rights along with responsibilities. Your feminist bashing has next to no actual merits beyond the typical cry again "crazy feminazis".

How severely is that, exactly?

Trying having 30% of every single paycheck you get for the next 18 years stripped away from you in child support fee's with no say on how that money is spent by the mother of the child.

Then try losing you job and incurring a massive amount of debt due to back child support fee's until you are stripped of your drivers license and unable to gain a means of supporting the child due to it and eventually end up serving jail time and labled as a deadbeat.

Do all of that so some pretentious bitch can tell you to fuck off because she doesn't want you in your kids life because you are a inconvenience to her.

Of course you say the Average man pays only 3-4k a year in child support which is the wrong way to go about it, you need to look at it as I have many friends who pay child support that have on average of 200-300 dollars taken from every paycheck when they make less than $700 per paycheck to begin with once all other taxes are removed from the equation.

Then of course the more the man makes the more the man pays which is completely unfair seeing as how the cost of living for the child does not increase due to the fathers higher income.

The biggest slap in the face though is that the mother manages how the money is spent in either case, I mean honestly If I am forced to financially support A child the least I deserve is a say in how that money is used, be it boxes of groceries/clothes/cash or a collage savings account.

[Niroshi]

This is such a bad topic, how did it get to 36 pages?

There isn't a satisfactory answer to this question, this topic, this anything. It's entirely unassailable that women have rights and control over their own bodies, however the prospect of a man and woman being entirely disconnected from one another on this topic is fairly heart breaking. I can understand any kind of frustration or anger over, say, a man wanting a woman to keep the child while she insists on aborting it. Somebody in that situation is going to be harmed no matter what way it's sliced, and it's a shitty and heart breaking situation. I would bet favorable odds that any relationship that had to endure this would crumble quickly, that is, without both parties' consent.

On the other hand, what the hell is up with this topic? Sure maybe the OP's comments made some of you angry, and you may find the opinions offensive, but I've not seen so many words stuffed in so many mouths and other orifices since the elections. Early comments amount to little more than one person saying something someone disagreed with and the other person shouting something to shut them up.

Hell, at one point one of the comments insisted that if a woman snuck behind a man's back to abort a child it's because she fears a violent reprisal. Really! Immediate invocation of violence! Not that it was already a hard decision for the woman, and I'd imagine it never is an easy decision, not because maybe he doesn't know that she's pregnant, or maybe she's young and her family is forcing her to do it. No it HAS to be violence? And comparisons made between a legal ramification for a man to stop an abortion and a wife having a right to neuter him? What the fuck is that? No argument that no Supreme Court in the last 60+ years would've ever upheld such a law, no argument on moral grounds...

Actually, the closest comparison I can think of at 2 in the morning is when Joe Scarborough shouted BENGHAZI BENGHAZI BENGHAZI whenever his guests refused to linger on the topic. I don't care how inflamed you may get about this topic, how angry it might make you, if you're trying to make a point it helps to not make your audience laugh AT you while you're doing it.

No person, man or woman, has the right to strip another person's control of their body over them. In a civilized society you would and SHOULD expect some degree of discussion between the two people. The woman and the man should have a very long discussion on the topic, every opinion should be aired, and if the COUPLE decides to abort or not then they should proceed as such. If it's a temporary thing, dating or what have you, I still believe the man should be included but the ultimate choice is up to the woman. this is likely the most moral way to approach the situation, as it includes both parties and at the very least INFORMS the man instead of tells him to get fucked.

If the man is left out and the deed is done without him being the wiser, however, there are consequences to that. The woman should be well prepared for any anger, depression, or indeed breaking off of relations and she should expect them. That is not to say that she should ever condone violent reprisal, that is unacceptable, but the man is not a non-factor and his opinion should at the very least matter in a basis not related to actually having the final say.

[Deleted]

Well then if you are strongly convinced that father can have a "vote" in this case, then maybe he should also have the right to force his partner to abortion? No, i dont think so, i believe its female decision, she will be the one sacrificing most, her health, her life (its not only 9 months, also quite a long time after that), its alot of pain and discomfort, only to after few years hear that he got younger, thin, long legged blondie, but he will ofc pay child support so he is ok.

[dontcare]

I suppose, given the demographic that would frequent MMO champ, and the usual person that would take the time to vote on a subject such as this, I am not overly surprised by the threads general discourse. I read a fair majority of this thread and must say that while you are entitled to your opinions, a strong majority of them seem to be either ignorant of the law or quite frankly, shortsighted. A man can’t force a woman to have an abortion because it would violate her rights to bodily autonomy.

“But dontcare, my sperm is in there too!” – Should I spit in your mouth and then claim rights to you? This is a preposterous argument. Donating sperm does not change the fact that the fetus is part of, and lives off of, the woman.

What if a man rapes a woman and then claims that he has a right to her body because it is his sperm, what do you do? – “Well clearly dontcare this is a horrible example because it was rape!” –So the justice system you have spent 30 pages decrying as horrid and unfair, and known to allow people to slip through the cracks, is going to get rape cases, which are notoriously hard to prove either way, the right call every time? Or is there an acceptable amount of rape victims that should be forced to give birth to the child of their rapist? Although I understand the man’s concern of “No, I don’t want to have the child”, the law can’t allow a man control over a woman’s body, nefariously, innocent, or otherwise.

On a less philosophical side, legally, many people in this thread don’t seem to understand the idea of child support. A lot of people seem to be under the notion that child support is a punitive measure to the parent that has to pay. This is simply not the case. Without going too deep into the legal reasoning and history behind child support, essentially, a non-custodial parent is responsible for child support payments even if they do not wish to have a relationship with the child. Courts have maintained that a child's right to financial support from parents supersedes an adult's wish not to assume a parenting role. It is not a punitive measure, can’t say that enough.

Anyway, it’s getting late and honestly there are pages to be written here, but this is already long enough that a slim amount of people will read it anyway. Apologize for the writing as I said I’m pretty tired, and since this is on the internet, and it’s hard to discern tone, before someone gets offended by this, calm down. This post was not meant to be aggressive and I am by no means calling anyone stupid or otherwise if you disagree.

edit: formatting is pretty horrible

[Totle]

A lot of what you'll hear is "it's my body, it's my choice"

And I respectfully disagree. What if the man wanted to be a father? What if he wanted to start a family?

It's bad enough that women are endangering their children by opting for a C-section so that birth won't "ruin their body" (<- that's how shallow many women of today have become).

I whole hardily believe that a discussion needs to be met and if that doesn't provide a result and then have the issue be voted on either by a judge in small claims or a jury in trial.

[semaphore]

Trying having 30% of every single paycheck you get for the next 18 years stripped away from you in child support fee's with no say on how that money is spent by the mother of the child.

A typical child support payment covers less than half of the average expenses required to actually raise a child.

[Flatspriest]

Personally, I think that the father should have a say in if they keep the kid or not, but if they choose not to, then HOW they get this done should be up to the mother. It is her body after all and as such, she gets to decide if she wants an abortion or to carry the baby to term and put it up for adoption.

[Vanyali]

I'm not arguing whose right it is to control a fetus. I'm simply saying that the production of one is just as much the woman's fault as the mans.
Currently it appears that women are clueless in the production part of the pregnancy and are therefor liberated from responsibility on that point.
It's always the man who's at blame for a pregnancy unwanted or not. Women are so victimized in this aspect that it's becoming disgusting.
You said it best yourself :
Without the woman our sperm is simply a stain on the sheets. Why should we bare any responsibility at all for any pregnancy?
It's so very obvious that it's the woman's choice and right alone to decide whether or not she'll become pregnant, with or without the mans consent.

I hate to say it (or use this excuse), but the reason why is a cultural thing.

Men are the "strong" ones. They're the impregnantors of women. Men enjoy sex, not women. If a couple can't get pregnant, it's a woman's failure. These are all things that are slammed into our culture, though a couple of them are being pushed away. Hence when an unplanned pregnancy occurs "well, why didn't the MAN (the strong, impregnating fertile sex-enjoying partner) take care of that!" comes to mind in a committed couple and "stupid slut should find herself a man and not have sex with random guys" comes to mind when it's a single woman.

No, not everyone will thing these exact things, but a surprising amount will.

A woman cannot become pregnant alone. However, she gives BIRTH alone. She CARRIES alone. The decision ultimately rests on her even if the man and woman both agree about an abortion because while he could only talk about it SHE decided to go through with it.