There are currently more Retribution Paladins than Rogues.

[Verain]

In all honesty rogue damage is fine, rogues were being used in (most) world first heroic kills, and certainly subsequent heroic kills.

Yea, I only brought enough QQ Brew for pvp discussions. I feel fine in pve, and I'm fairly certain that as we push other heroics that I will continue to be a valuable contributor. I'm not seeing rogues being undesired for many bosses in this sixteen boss tier, and I'm seeing us favored heavily for a couple.

GC may have been trying to point out that there are a LOT of rets out there, but you can't make the comparison without wondering why a single spec out-numbers 3 other specs, which happen to comprise a class.

This 100%.

WoW has updated a lot, and classes have changed in lots of ways to make them more dynamic (and often easier) but the primary rogue changes made them easier to play and failed to update rogue mobility, while everyone else got more. These are the prime issues with rogues that (probably) lead to our class being highly underplayed.

Honestly, I suspect the devs have this discussion a lot, and I think a couple years ago they decided that the rogue community didn't have much else for them. But when they USED to listen to us, how glorious it was. Deadly Throw originated on the WoW rogue forums, in response to the devs asking "so, what would you guys like?". Cloak of Shadows did too. Technically shadowstep was in that thread, but not with that name, and I'm sure "teleport to their back" doesn't require a great deal of thought. Throughout the years, rogues have been top damage in entire tiers, and not often awful. Rogues have had success in some pvp seasons as well, but it is often a bit cloaked there:

I remember how much power vial of shadows added. I also remember having to play around it prenerf, especially versus rogue/mage/something teams if the mage had a burst trinket too. I never had glaives, but I remember having to use a different strategy to beat them. I remember how brutal it was to heal versus them on my druid, as they would just tunnel down the felpup (glaives gave an AP bonus versus demons), and if no demon existed, my SL/SL lock couldn't stay up versus anything, least of all oranges. And of course, I saw these glaive wielding rogues, and later the vial rogues, in almost every game, because that's how the rating system works.

So these mechanics were only available to rogues who were all about pve and pvp, and everyone saw that in pvp and screamed their heads off about it. Rogues are a pretty hated class by a decent chunk of the wow population, because their kit is controlled, and people don't like being controlled. Any time rogues are above 10% arena rep at high ratings, the melee hybrids start screaming their heads off, because "rogues outnumber rets at high rated arena", all the while being blind to their class having some dominating percentage because of the huge holy rep (and sometimes in the past, prot rep), as if rogue were some offspec of cat druid or something. Even expected rep for rogues features massive anti-rogue tears, because rogues are taking the melee jobs that they deserve (three melee specs = you get the melee job or the devs fucked up).

And when rogues are OVERREPPED? ERMAHGERD!!!

Last season's rogues aren't as powerful as this season's warriors, and last seasons warriors were almost an order of magnitude better than this season's rogues, yet the anti-rogue hate that dribbles out constantly is just as vile as it was during a season where we actually were overtuned- but not by enough to be mandatory, or uncounterable.


So what does this come to?

Players who main other classes and are looking for an alt to run ask themselves some questions. If the player only cares about themselves- aka, they don't plan to raid, or they just want to experience what it is to be a mage in pvp- then the only question is, 'what class do I want to play'. But say there's an alt run that you could get into that runs on saturday, and you could play in a real raid that way, or say you want to run with your friends and make a good comp, then you ask questions like 'what does that run need', 'what are good comps this season', 'what works with class X that my buddy is running'. And then you ask stuff like 'does that class need a certain thing to work'.

So if you are deciding between, say, warrior and rogue, two classes with some thematic overlap, a big question is going to relate to how much you like stealth. Another is going to relate to whether you will ever want to tank. It's much faster to queue dungeons as a tank, much easier to pull big numbers as a tank (for all gear levels except max level purps), much easier for daddy tank and mommy healer to take the kids on a dungeon run. If all you see of the game is solo questing and dungeons (and for many players, that is the game), then a rogue is just a broken warrior with an afk button. You need to get much deeper in the game for the rogue to offer much to you besides stealth.

I've played this rogue since August following the game's launch- essentially my whole WoW time has been on Verain. During the last several years, I've tried to goad guildies into rolling rogue alts, with varying degrees of success. Most of my guild doesn't pvp that much, but even then it's been hard to sell them on rogues. Shadowstep has fans, because it's intuitive, in flavor, and powerful, so some kind of play for that for awhile. I see a lot of complaints that "my moves don't do much", and I have to explain how the rogue is a weapon master, and part of your job is to maintain your character's focus, via slice and dice, envenom, or revealing strike, and to stack damage into burst windows, not merely button presses when resources are available.


If you asked me how to make rogues more popular:

1)- At your soonest opportunity (now would be fine), get shadowstep as baseline. This move does what it's supposed to do, so it's a keeper, and shouldn't be available to trade out. But pretend rogues were super powerful and ultra repped- find a way to do it even then, just nerf something else. A baseline version of shadowstep could cost energy as it used to, or even have a longer cooldown as it used to, if that is needed- a talent could be added to make it free or whatever. The point is, this move should be, in some form, baseline.

2)- Openers should be intuitive and powerful. You should always want to press an opener over a regular move.

3)- Dots should do a little bit more damage than the instant versions. For instance, a full duration garrote should be more damage than an ambush. A full duration rupture should be more damage than an eviscerate. Otherwise, why have the dots? If this can't be true, change the moves in some manner. Garrote could serve as a small amount of upfront damage, for instance.

4)- UI support for the class. Anticipation, whether baseline or not, should be handled with graphical combo points, not a buff on the rogue. Other classes get this without a second thought. Extra point of chi? Here's a sphere. More holy power? Got a thing for that. Eclipse? Got a bar. Anticiptation should have a progress bar or other UI element- I shouldn't need BanditsGuileHelper, which hasn't been updated in forever and gets confused about some moves that work differently now, to see that I'm at 3 yellow and should pool to enter red with full energy.

5)- Animation support for the class. I remember we batted around the idea for a ninja roll a long damned time ago, but we were like "oh man, they'd have to animate a roll, they'd never do a class specific animation like that". But of course, they did. The monk has tons of that, the rogue has none of that. Obviously, rogues are subtle- sinister strike shouldn't feature a dragon flying or whatever. But these moves COULD and SHOULD have their own animations. Envenom and Eviscerate could look different. The few times they have tried rogue specific animations (stealth walking) it's largely been pretty terrible, and often glitchy.

6)- Greater spec differences. This is probably the biggest one, and it's been done pretty well in the past. The warlock can be pointed to as the biggest example of what this SHOULD be. A warlock has different goals and strategies in each of their specs. To an extent, this is true for rogues- a mutilate rogue values their energy bar much more than the other rogues, a sub rogue values positioning much more, etc.

7)- Intuitive spec resources. Where the specs ARE unique are good but the spec specific "resources" are kind of silly. Bandit's Guile is hard to explain to new rogues, find weakness is powerful, awesome, and needs some explanation, envenom uptime is interesting and also requires a chat.


- - -

Well Rogues still do more dps than rets in pve and are more represented in 2200+ pvp in 3's and rbgs.

Glad to hear it, obviously Sub/Mut/Combat rep should be > just Ret. What is your source, though? Rogues were around 1% at last update, did stuff really shift a lot? Are rogues anywhere close to correctly repped yet? I would be a bit surprised if they were.

---------- Post added 2012-12-06 at 10:55 PM ----------

As an addendum, I'm rereading my post, and there actually IS a "rets outnumber rogues at high rated arena" that snuck in from when I started the post to when I finished it. That's amusing! I'm not sure it's true, however, as I stated directly above.

[Shaderas]

The mobility will be solved after a while. As I mentioned you have two sprints, one with energy cost. This will be used more flexible with the more haste you get - making it a better ability of choice.

The problem with rogue is that - it takes almost nothing to make it OP.

Might need some clearance but rogue isn't that bad as most people refer to it as.They say it's useless and bad. It's not as good as it was, but far from useless. PvE wise they're good. PvP some problems with mobility forcing to spend on shadowstep / prep. Gives shadowstep double CD and make it a non talent. - GG

No, I definitely agree with you, Rogues aren't horrible. Unfortunately, we're a class that isn't played very much and so when we are a little underpowered it exacerbates the issue and we're seeing some really really low numbers right now. A few tweaks here and there and I think we should be balanced again.

[jonoy8]

How did this thread turn into a comparison of ret vs rogues? The point was that a single CLASS SPEC has a larger player base than an entire class. Read it again since you all seem to be having an issue.

statement doesn't make sense with dual specs

most paladins are probably ret/prot or ret/holy.

so yes "ret paladins" outnumbering rogues is not unexpected

[Verain]

I'm sure GC is counting ret mains, and not falling for that trap.

[Deleted]

But who cares?

If you aren't willing to play every spec to maximize yourself, that's your choice. But where were the ret paladins fighting for combat rogue pvp throughout the last three expansions?

OBVIOUSLY Blizzard should make every spec viable. But if combat and retribution don't make arena representation but holy and sub do, then paladins and rogues both have a home in arena. if retribution is bad and all rogue specs are bad, the rogue issue is far far worse, because you have a large number of unviable characters, the rogues. The other problem is paladins who have a chosen spec and want it to be better. That's a valid issue, but it's not even on the same page as a broken class.

Ret is a spec
Rogue is a class
This doesn't mean that ret shouldn't be good, but it does mean that rogue rep compares to PALADIN rep, because both are CLASSES

I don't know why you want to debate this when you just made my point for me: all specs should be viable. Of course, that will be next to impossible especially with limited manpower but that should be the aim.

Ret has always been a popular spec, but it wasn't even viable for the first half of TBC, and was a joke in vanilla. But the fact that it was still in demand nevertheless gave Blizz more incentive to change it. But look how long they took.


When people think of a paladin they don't usually think of a healer or a tank. They think of a knight. If I don't want to play another spec, I won't. I could, but I won't unless it's my choice. The same is true for rogues: if Assassination isn't viable then I probably won't touch another spec, perhaps not even if it's super viable.

It's not my fault if I don't want to be forced to play a spec I didn't choose. It's Blizzard's fault for not supplying that demand. If there isn't enough demand then I will accept it and move on.

If I have to adapt and play a different spec or even class, that will be my choice, not Blizzard's.

As far as I am concerned the Wrath rogue was better and more like a real rogue than the Cata one.

[ozsmeg]

I think the biggest issue I have experienced over the life of rogues is the massive expansion and skill requirement to play them over the years. Rogues have progressed from a reasonably simple rotation with 1 CD and some actually usable tools to a complex rotation that involves micromanagement of several procing self buffs, 10 combo points and no less than 5 dps CD's. Coupling all that with several utilities that although cool I never seem to get to use them to the the best as I am to busy micromanaging everything else.

Maybe its just me but Rogues seem excessively complex compared to only 2 expansions ago.

The fact I now have to manage my rotation into BG, AP, KS, SB, AR, Beserking, trinkets, Feint for damage reduction, Vanish at just the right time just so i can maximize the damage, seems like it removes the simple play style that rogues used to be.

The synergy between all the off the different abilities that rogues have seems to be lacking they used to fit together nicely now they are just a mass of abilities that i have to squeeze into my rotation while not standing in stuff.

The 3 rogues specs seem to be 3 different varieties of truck rather than 3 different varieties of vehicle. 1 truck, 1 sports car, 1 sedan would be much better than 1 truck with a big tray, 1 truck with big wheels, 1 truck with 4x4.

[Speaknoevil]

The wrath rogue that got killed in 1/3d of a death coil from 95-100% at gladiator play level?

[Deleted]

When people think of a paladin they don't usually think of a healer or a tank. They think of a knight. If I don't want to play another spec, I won't. I could, but I won't unless it's my choice. The same is true for rogues: if Assassination isn't viable then I probably won't touch another spec, perhaps not even if it's super viable.

Because rogue=assassin? oO
I'm into fantasy for over 20 years now and in my mind rogue is more like = gambler, thief, loner, maverick, burglar, even more swashbuckler than assassin.
Its a shady person who wouldn't hesitate to do crimes to earn their living.
Assassins are specialized criminals, hitmen with ninja-like skills. They are very commited and do a sinful work others won't even think of. Saying every rogue = assassin would be like saying everybody who cheated at playing cards is like a murderer.

And thats certainly the main consensus when people think about "rogue".

[LilSaihah]

Because rogue=assassin? oO
I'm into fantasy for over 20 years now and in my mind rogue is more like = gambler, thief, loner, maverick, burglar, even more swashbuckler than assassin.
Its a shady person who wouldn't hesitate to do crimes to earn their living.
Assassins are specialized criminals, hitmen with ninja-like skills. They are very commited and do a sinful work others won't even think of. Saying every rogue = assassin would be like saying everybody who cheated at playing cards is like a murderer.

And thats certainly the main consensus when people think about "rogue".

I actually had a bit of a thought exercise lately about characters from media which isn't a video game, about who might classify as a rogue. I ended up coming up with Sherlock Holmes and The Batman.

If Rogues were The Batman, I think their representation problems would disappear overnight.

[Zoma]

I actually had a bit of a thought exercise lately about characters from media which isn't a video game, about who might classify as a rogue. I ended up coming up with Sherlock Holmes and The Batman.

If Rogues were The Batman, I think their representation problems would disappear overnight.

Wasn't that their T13 gear, plus the effect from their legendary?

[randomuser1337]

First of all, you make a thread about retri paladins being more than rogues with no proof to support that and then you also speak about a totally different topic inside (the rogue talents that is). Do you know what a title is? lol...

Read the front page maybe? It was Blizzard who said there are currently more ret paladins than rogues. Please read before embarassing yourself.

[AceofHarts]

For the first time rogue is the least plated Class. OMG BLIZZARD WHY YOU HATE US SO MCUH?? Rogues are still top notch, although soz.. it takes skill atm, something many rogues lack. ROFLMAO CATA ROGUE - AMBUSH 60k - AMBUSH 60k - STUN - dead. I remember warriors in CATA. Mortal strike - 6k... Overpower 4-5k... Rogues recup - 6-8k.. GL.. GL

for the first time? seriously? rogues have been the least played class since some time in wrath of the lich king minimum.
as for your cataclysm pvp analysis. taht was more like 4.3 rogues, not cataclysm. one patch. the rest they were eitehr balanced (4.2) or subpar (everything else) in pvp
yes warriors sucked in cata for pvp.

rogues suck in pvp hardcore right now (less then 2% arena rep) and warriors are ntohing short of dominant. a full plate wearing warrior has more mobility then a class that is supposedly agile, wears leather armor, and is supposed to be highly mobile.

yeah...

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 08:09 AM ----------

Well Rogues still do more dps than rets in pve and are more represented in 2200+ pvp in 3's and rbgs.

comparing a class to a spec.
splendid. and where do you draw these numbers from.

[Raqubor]

Is this a troll thread? I cannot believe rogues are crying. Do you guys even play your rogues?


http://imgur.com/dp2Hf

What does world DPS rankings has to do with PVP representation?????
What does that have to do with 99.999% of players? Nothing.

Rogues 'function' in PvE, but the play style did not change in the 10 years of wow. It's getting old and dated.

And the biggest problem is, that Paladins have stuns, sprint and incapacitate effects with shorter CDs and stronger effects than what rogues had.
Paladins are not only about 'Plate and Heals, derp' anymore, they are about: 'Plate and Heals and Immunities and Stuns and Control and Good Damage, trolololol'.

---------- Post added 2012-12-07 at 03:04 PM ----------

Wasn't that their T13 gear, plus the effect from their legendary?

Lol, spot on

[Deleted]

I think the biggest issue I have experienced over the life of rogues is the massive expansion and skill requirement to play them over the years. Rogues have progressed from a reasonably simple rotation with 1 CD and some actually usable tools to a complex rotation that involves micromanagement of several procing self buffs, 10 combo points and no less than 5 dps CD's. Coupling all that with several utilities that although cool I never seem to get to use them to the the best as I am to busy micromanaging everything else.

Maybe its just me but Rogues seem excessively complex compared to only 2 expansions ago.

The fact I now have to manage my rotation into BG, AP, KS, SB, AR, Beserking, trinkets, Feint for damage reduction, Vanish at just the right time just so i can maximize the damage, seems like it removes the simple play style that rogues used to be.

The synergy between all the off the different abilities that rogues have seems to be lacking they used to fit together nicely now they are just a mass of abilities that i have to squeeze into my rotation while not standing in stuff.

The 3 rogues specs seem to be 3 different varieties of truck rather than 3 different varieties of vehicle. 1 truck, 1 sports car, 1 sedan would be much better than 1 truck with a big tray, 1 truck with big wheels, 1 truck with 4x4.

This is it exactly.

When I played my rogue alt in pvp, while it is fun to ambush people out of stealth and be a pain in the arse it really feels over complicated and slow.

Above all I am starting to hate the rigid inflexible combo point system, while it works for single target bosses it totally sucks for any real chaotic fight in pvp. You have to sit there behind your target building them up, then use them on a slice and dice buff, then on a stun, then use them on a bleed, oh wait need to keep recup on as well... Need an eviscerate in there somewhere too!

All the while this is happening you are vulnerable to counter-attack by other targets who if you switch to fight use up the points on your current target.
Any other class has the capability to use their skills against any target they wish except rogues who are forced to literally keep on their current or run away.

I think I would prefer combo points to be a buff on the rogue rather than the target, so that if you have 5 points built up and someone else engages you can use a big move on them if you want (much like how monks can with built up chi)

The whole combo point system feels too rigid and old fashioned and needs to be revamped, it feels like its designed for the stationary tank and spank boss fights of old.

[Deleted]

Why? Because I'm right? My partner hasn't gotten the slightliest pushd back. We're sitting at 23xx rating at 2,4k MMR.

PvE he's doing nr 1. I wonder..

Rogues are almost topping the logs.

Overall he says - Rogue was changed to be more skill dependant. Not so much gear. I mean you compare a rogue from Cataclysm - TOP NOTCH Gear. Haste at max with a rogue that has at least 3-4 raids in front of him and 3 seasons of PvP.

By the end of the expansion rogues will be even more powerful than ever.. Just wait for the dodge, haste and crit to increase..

Just wait - What rogues are to expect with better gear - Better flow with energy - More criticals which will just increase the DMG. Dodge - less dmg taken etc. Rogue was too op in arena.. My friend and me in cata .. SMOKE BOMB POP DEAD. Haha..

OH MY GOD, we will be ok by the end of the freaking expansion... or 1/3 of the time... You know that THAT is exactly what is wrong with the class? And you can bet on it that by then everyone has forgotten how they shat on rogues in the previous seasons and will call rogues 'OP for a whole expansion'.
Fun fun fun...

[Deleted]

The wrath rogue that got killed in 1/3d of a death coil from 95-100% at gladiator play level?

An unforgiving class makes you a better player.

Because rogue=assassin?

There's a spec called "Assassination" you see, so I kind of expect to play an assassin.

I don't want a watered down warrior thanks.

I never said all rogues are assassins. I said I really liked that spec.

[Shaderas]

There's a spec called "Assassination" you see, so I kind of expect to play an assassin.

I don't want a watered down warrior thanks.

I never said all rogues are assassins. I said I really liked that spec.

I'm not arguing with you, but don't you find it funny that Subtlety spec plays more like an actual assassin than Assassination spec does?

Honestly, Assassination spec should be named "Poisoner" or something to that effect... hehe

[Deleted]

I'm not arguing with you, but don't you find it funny that Subtlety spec plays more like an actual assassin than Assassination spec does?

Honestly, Assassination spec should be named "Poisoner" or something to that effect... hehe

Yeah I agree. I didn't like Sub in Cata but it was way more interactive.

I think I have reached a point where I simply won't play anything if it's not fun, even if it's the most viable spec ever, but I'll have to think about that some more. Assassination should be more bursty IMO but fragile at the same time. Maybe that's not coming back. If so I'll just accept it.

[Verain]

See in my mind the assassin is relentless and tough, but should have something like a "death attack"- a kind of strike that really hits hard, but can't be used all the time. Previously, this was sort of modelled by the fact that a full energy bar was seriously threatening over the span of 3-4 seconds, but currently the damage is mostly spread out into a thousand tiny green cuts. Before that it was modelled with vigor, where it could let you get a powerful move it 2 seconds earlier than another rogue (remember energy regen of 20 / 2, not smooth).

Both of these were not particularly amazing.



I like assassination right now. I think that the venomous wounds proc is nice, and I think envenom is quite pleasing. I think if deadly throw was baseline and cut to the chase worked with it, we'd have solved one of our rotational difficulties in pvp as well- that of getting rooted and focussed just a TAD and suddenly having to throw away like 10 combo points just to be able to get the engine started again.

[Shaderas]

I like assassination right now. I think that the venomous wounds proc is nice, and I think envenom is quite pleasing. I think if deadly throw was baseline and cut to the chase worked with it, we'd have solved one of our rotational difficulties in pvp as well- that of getting rooted and focussed just a TAD and suddenly having to throw away like 10 combo points just to be able to get the engine started again.

I agree. I do not see why they decided to make deadly throw a talent.. to me it points to the fact that they really didn't have a good idea of what they wanted to do with the Rogue class in MoP, or perhaps lazy design. Too many talents being old abilities that we used to have as part of our kit naturally.