[Frost] Icy Veins Glyph - Possibly Bad

[Akraen]

Also, while he outgears me, I crush him in haste, because I've always geared for frost.

He was a fire mage, newly frost, has unideal stats. Or are they truly unideal? Have we been doing it all wrong?

[Demindar]

Also, while he outgears me, I crush him in haste, because I've always geared for frost.

He was a fire mage, newly frost, has unideal stats. Or are they truly unideal? Have we been doing it all wrong?

Not trying to sound rude or anything here, but youre trying to compare yourself to one of the top mages in the world. You also have to take into account there are many many factors in a parse: Raid Comp (though that doesnt matter as much if you have all the buffs / debuffs covered), personal skill level, rng of the fight, effective cooldown stacking, an ideal perfect time to use alter time, ect.

As stated, the glyph has a very minimal dps increase. A lot of people like it unglyphed for many reasons: a) it frees up a glyph slot (I myself like to use Water Ele, Evo, and Ice Lance), b) 20% more haste can be more desirable (specially if you choose invocation).

Simply, he could have gotten really nice RNG, or you could just have gotten outplayed. Theres nothing wrong with either of them.

PS: Can you link to 2 parses you were comparing?

[Akraen]

Not trying to sound rude or anything here, but youre trying to compare yourself to one of the top mages in the world. You also have to take into account there are many many factors in a parse: Raid Comp (though that doesnt matter as much if you have all the buffs / debuffs covered), personal skill level, rng of the fight, effective cooldown stacking, an ideal perfect time to use alter time, ect.

As stated, the glyph has a very minimal dps increase. A lot of people like it unglyphed for many reasons: a) it frees up a glyph slot (I myself like to use Water Ele, Evo, and Ice Lance), b) 20% more haste can be more desirable (specially if you choose invocation).

Simply, he could have gotten really nice RNG, or you could just have gotten outplayed. Theres nothing wrong with either of them.

PS: Can you link to 2 parses you were comparing?

What is with everyone in this thread?

My calculations are AKRAEN with icy veins glyph on Heroic Blade Lord. Then AKRAEN without icy veins glyph on Heroic Blade Lord. I should've never mentioned the Method mage because now everyone thinks I'm comparing my parse to his. I'm not. I'm saying he's the first mage I've ever seen to beat one of my parses using something so obviously big and different: no icy veins glyph.

I've been a druid for 7 years. I'm new to mage. I don't think I'm the best. But up until the fire nerf I was one of the best frost mages. I still have a #1 Feng Heroic 25 parse. This isn't about horn tooting, it's about icy veins glyph.

But anyway here are relevant parses:
Kuznam Heroic Blade Lord 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wfix3...?s=4985&e=5425
Akraen Heroic Blade Lord 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9j...=13520&e=13985

And obviously I realize it's futile to compare the two. That's why I only did math with my own parse. I'm not about to comb through his logs in such detail that I could create a formula for him.

Here's a much better performance out of me, single target (mostly, we do Feng properly and only AoE adds once):
Akraen Heroic Feng 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yc...&e=8310#Akraen
And here's another mage on Heroic Feng 25, fight was just 2 seconds longer. He didn't have icy veins glyphed:
Konnery Heroic Feng 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sxez5...?s=1513&e=1909

[Gvstoned]

Damn you guys get fast kills on Feng, here's my rank 1 parse that's a minute longer (it's from quite a while back though, but I haven't been there much since):
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t...?s=2479&e=2930


Icy Veins glyph feels like a dps increase to me, I wouldn't know for sure because I'm too lazy to do maths.
My gear is a bit lower itemlevel than yours (495) and I sadly don't have the sha gem yet :<


Also have a rank 1 parse of Blade lord HC: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/9...?s=8366&e=8843
Also with worse gear, still from november, gotten many upgrades since. Would love to see my DPS on these bosses now that I have 4 set.


Long story short, I use Icy Veins glyph (have shit tons of haste so why not) and I'm getting pretty decent ranks for my itemlevel + it just feels like a DPS increase to me.

[Akraen]

Yeah I had a lot of #1 ranks too until the european fire mages went frost :P

We've both lost our ranks, Gvstoned, lol. So time to think outside the box.

Oh also look at Shen, he's our tank... monk tank DPS is insane.

[Gvstoned]

Holy crap that is stupid DPS for a tank o.0

[Soulstrike]

What is with everyone in this thread?

My calculations are AKRAEN with icy veins glyph on Heroic Blade Lord. Then AKRAEN without icy veins glyph on Heroic Blade Lord. I should've never mentioned the Method mage because now everyone thinks I'm comparing my parse to his. I'm not. I'm saying he's the first mage I've ever seen to beat one of my parses using something so obviously big and different: no icy veins glyph.

I've been a druid for 7 years. I'm new to mage. I don't think I'm the best. But up until the fire nerf I was one of the best frost mages. I still have a #1 Feng Heroic 25 parse. This isn't about horn tooting, it's about icy veins glyph.

But anyway here are relevant parses:
Kuznam Heroic Blade Lord 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/wfix3...?s=4985&e=5425
Akraen Heroic Blade Lord 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-9j...=13520&e=13985

And obviously I realize it's futile to compare the two. That's why I only did math with my own parse. I'm not about to comb through his logs in such detail that I could create a formula for him.

Here's a much better performance out of me, single target (mostly, we do Feng properly and only AoE adds once):
Akraen Heroic Feng 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-yc...&e=8310#Akraen
And here's another mage on Heroic Feng 25, fight was just 2 seconds longer. He didn't have icy veins glyphed:
Konnery Heroic Feng 25: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sxez5...?s=1513&e=1909

um......how did your FB only hit for 47.5k while his FB hits for 70k ish?? this is weird zzzzzz,

either your weapon was broken or ur had fishing pole equiped?? or something bugged out

[Gvstoned]

um......how did your FB only hit for 47.5k while his FB hits for 70k ish?? this is weird zzzzzz,

either your weapon was broken or ur had fishing pole equiped?? or something bugged out

Because he used the Icy Veins glyph and the other mage didn't? Your Frostbolts hit 3 times less, but shoot 3 bolts at once, ofc Frostbolt would show lower avg dmg per bolt then.

[Soulstrike]

Because he used the Icy Veins glyph and the other mage didn't? Your Frostbolts hit 3 times less, but shoot 3 bolts at once, ofc Frostbolt would show lower avg dmg per bolt then.

ah right forgot about that, but thats pretty crazy in terms of FB damage difference

feels like wol didnt track 3 FB when IV was used??? no way method mage did x2 more FB damage than this guy

[Deleted]

Akraen,

I've been pondering the question you ask in this thread and I think that the mage in question might have exchanged IV glyph for FFB glyph, and casted FFB as his main nuke during IV and BL. Lining up trinkets/procs with IV/BL and casting FFB (glyphed) in that time as your main nuke instead of FB should be a DPS increase, no?

Just had a look at the parse of Kuznam and he didn't cast that many FFBs and most were crits which brings me to think that above scenario is unlikely. So another possibility might be that he used fire blast glyph which activates nether tempest's secondary nuke immediately. It would make sense if he chose that so that he has one more thing to use for extra damage while on the move. Maybe he did that because he didn't have enough haste for IV glyph at the time? Not sure.

[Tickspoon]

The difference comes down to:

- 20% more bomb damage
vs.
- 20% more FoF procs on Frozen Orb
- Not hitting GCD cap on non-frostbolt spells

Generally bomb damage (ie. unglyphed) wins out until you're looking at over 10k haste.

[Deleted]

The difference comes down to:

- 20% more bomb damage
vs.
- 20% more FoF procs on Frozen Orb
- Not hitting GCD cap on non-frostbolt spells

Generally bomb damage (ie. unglyphed) wins out until you're looking at over 10k haste.

And you have what proof for that?, Not saying you're wrong or otherwise, but so much baseless information gets posted on these forums

[spaace]

ah right forgot about that, but thats pretty crazy in terms of FB damage difference

feels like wol didnt track 3 FB when IV was used??? no way method mage did x2 more FB damage than this guy

Wol DOES track them.. but not with your "normal" casts.. there's a whole new column for the split.

[jtmzac]

The difference comes down to:

- 20% more bomb damage
vs.
- 20% more FoF procs on Frozen Orb
- Not hitting GCD cap on non-frostbolt spells

Generally bomb damage (ie. unglyphed) wins out until you're looking at over 10k haste.

And you have what proof for that?, Not saying you're wrong or otherwise, but so much baseless information gets posted on these forums

I forgot to mention it earlier but us older frost mages might still thinking about the old icy veins a bit where it was quite different. (only affecting frostbolt)

Here's what I think is a more accurate comparison list:

- 20% more bomb damage
- Possible faster evocate
vs.
- Not hitting GCD cap on instant spells
- 20% more damage from Frosbolt, Ice Lance, Frostfire Bolt and Waterbolt.
- 20% more proc chance of FoF from Frostbolt

I'm not sure where you got "20% more FoF procs on Frozen Orb" from I assume you just meant Frostbolt instead.

As for proof I read the tooltips? And I know about the hidden 20% extra FoF chance from frostbolt.

Feel free to add anything I missed.

[Aquamonkey]

I forgot to mention it earlier but us older frost mages might still thinking about the old icy veins a bit where it was quite different. (only affecting frostbolt)

Here's what I think is a more accurate comparison list:

- 20% more bomb damage
- Possible faster evocate
vs.
- Not hitting GCD cap on instant spells
- 20% more damage from Frosbolt, Ice Lance, Frostfire Bolt and Waterbolt.
- 20% more proc chance of FoF from Frostbolt

I'm not sure where you got "20% more FoF procs on Frozen Orb" from I assume you just meant Frostbolt instead.

As for proof I read the tooltips? And I know about the hidden 20% extra FoF chance from frostbolt.

Feel free to add anything I missed.

20% more proc chance of FoF on Frostbolt would happen without the glyph due to the haste, as would 20% more BF procs.

Instant cast spells are already GCD capped. The glyph would prevent Frostbolt from GCD capping during BL.

[jtmzac]

20% more proc chance of FoF on Frostbolt would happen without the glyph due to the haste, as would 20% more BF procs.

Instant cast spells are already GCD capped. The glyph would prevent Frostbolt from GCD capping during BL.

I'm note sure if you read it the right way so I made it more clear. I've taken to mind your comments as well and I've updated the comparison list again. Feel free to point out more errors

Without glyph
- 20% more bomb damage
- 20% more BF procs
- Possible faster evocate
vs. with glyph
- Not hitting GCD cap on instant spells
- 20% more damage from Frosbolt, Ice Lance, Frostfire Bolt and Waterbolt.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Instant cast spells are already GCD capped. The glyph would prevent Frostbolt from GCD capping during BL.

I don't think you understand. My GCD is 1.13, and drops down to 0.9444 with unglyphed IV, below GCD cap. I'm essentially wasting 7% of IV's 20% haste while casting instant cast spells. The glyph prevents that waste by offering a different type of increase.

[Aquamonkey]

I forgot they hard capped the GCD at 1s.

[jtmzac]

I forgot they hard capped the GCD at 1s.

Your not the only one who forgets :P

Some classes would be rather op if it wasn't capped. I'm thinking 4.3 arcane with 0.5 second arcane blasts...

[Deleted]

Also, while he outgears me, I crush him in haste, because I've always geared for frost.

He was a fire mage, newly frost, has unideal stats. Or are they truly unideal? Have we been doing it all wrong?

When comparing logs remember to check external buffs. Kuznan is getting rogue tricks for extra 15% damage now and then (~10% uptime).