If we would...

[Hodenkrieg]

nothing snide about it. they should either include all of the mechanics but make them do less dammage, instead of dropping what would surely be raid wipers even at lower levels of dammage or make the rewards suit the effort. I would firmly agree with it being a gold only answer at the current LFR difficulty. But there are many more changes that need to be made to make LFR less of a circus. one should be feedback REQUIRED in a text box when someone is booted from raid. if a person is booted a number of times for reasons such as trolling, afking, anything negative and it is supported by the majority of the raid who clicked yes to the vote kick then that players account should become inelligible for LFR for a suitable ammount of time just like temp, longer, perma, bans. If someone is kicked with no majority support, lets take for instance there is a large guild group in the LFR and they just do not like that individual and push a vote kick, then that person could be made NON kickable for a suitable amount of time.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 01:35 PM ----------



it may have been the original reason for the post, or not. that doesn't matter. having people from both sides of the debate make reasonalbe arguemenst for thier case is the point of any thread.

I would actually be really OK with the bosses having full mechanics at reduced damage. I rarely run LFR simply because its boring as all hell. It becomes what I could consider to be World of Whack-a-Mole.

The second part would clearly take work to make sure it can't be abused.

I am OK with arguments toward the difficulty of the fights, or problems with caustic attitudes and taking advantage of the raid by riding coattails to free stuff.
I am not OK with arguments that are entirely based around one group wanting to look like a beacon of badass while everyone else looks like a walking turd.

[Djuntas]

I'd love if it was, but Id take it furthere than that.


Make it so next tier, and onwards that you dont even see all bosses in LFR. All bosses should be seeable on normal, but 1 boss on Hard-mode/heroic, to keep normal mode raiders and hard-mode raiders seperated slightly more. LFR shoulden't be for gearing (MAKE WELFARE GEAR OBTAINED INN OTHER PLACES), just to tops see the place. You dont put inn any effort when doing LFR barely, shouldent rewards such massive gear.

[LolretKJ]

If there was no loot in LFR I would have no interest in doing it whatsoever.
Maybe every once and I while to do top dps to show off my epeen.

[Lochton]

I'd love if it was, but Id take it furthere than that.


Make it so next tier, and onwards that you dont even see all bosses in LFR. All bosses should be seeable on normal, but 1 boss on Hard-mode/heroic, to keep normal mode raiders and hard-mode raiders seperated slightly more. LFR shoulden't be for gearing (MAKE WELFARE GEAR OBTAINED INN OTHER PLACES), just to tops see the place. You dont put inn any effort when doing LFR barely, shouldent rewards such massive gear.

But by removing the gear from LFR, you will be strangling the raiding community and stopping it from growing. One need the best gear one can get to be considered joining normals now a days. I mean, if gear was to be removed, then the amount of raiders will fall due to people find something else than raids and such. You need the LFR gear so you have a chance of becoming a real raider.

And now main question? Why would you care about LFR gear when normal/HC gear is better?

[judgementofantonidas]

But by removing the gear from LFR, you will be strangling the raiding community and stopping it from growing. One need the best gear one can get to be considered joining normals now a days. I mean, if gear was to be removed, then the amount of raiders will fall due to people find something else than raids and such. You need the LFR gear so you have a chance of becoming a real raider.

And now main question? Why would you care about LFR gear when normal/HC gear is better?

FOR SAKE OF THE DISCUSSION:

I care because in some ways LFR is providing very poor begining raiders with the benefits of gear that can include tier set bonuses , with the illusion that they are really raiding, and NOT preparing them whatsoever for the real thing.

I recently had a player from another guild claim that they completed Dragonsoul...................

wait for it...........


wait for it...........

on LFR difficulty and therefore completed the expansion!

[Spacepunch]

Yet you run it for the loot, right? If the loot would be removed from the table would you go back there?

Indeed. I quit running it when there were no longer upgrades there.... its also not seeing content, it's seeing what a boss looks like while you herp derp around fire and wait for it to fall over.

[Hodenkrieg]

FOR SAKE OF THE DISCUSSION:

I care because in some ways LFR is providing very poor begining raiders with the benefits of gear that can include tier set bonuses , with the illusion that they are really raiding, and NOT preparing them whatsoever for the real thing.

I recently had a player from another guild claim that they completed Dragonsoul...................

wait for it...........


wait for it...........

on LFR difficulty and therefore completed the expansion!

Would you argue that someone has only completed an expansion if they kill the end boss on heroic mode?

[Deleted]

Can you beat that horse even more? It must be pulp by now.

[KWC3587]

FOR SAKE OF THE DISCUSSION:

I care because in some ways LFR is providing very poor begining raiders with the benefits of gear that can include tier set bonuses , with the illusion that they are really raiding, and NOT preparing them whatsoever for the real thing.

I recently had a player from another guild claim that they completed Dragonsoul...................

wait for it...........


wait for it...........

on LFR difficulty and therefore completed the expansion!

My God, the horror. He obviously needs to be corrected that he did not complete the expansion in a worthwhile way.

[judgementofantonidas]

Would you argue that someone has only completed an expansion if they kill the end boss on heroic mode?

yes. I absolutley would. done is done. the last boss, on the hardest difficulty is completion.

[Osmeric]

Instead, how about we eliminate normal and heroic modes? That would discomfit fewer players.

[virens]

Can someone please explain to me as to how LFR-players impact on the game for the people who are complaining about it?

Not exactly sure that you are asking here, but I'll give it a go.

It isn't LFR-players, but the way players are using LFR. If you hop on the blizzard forums and talk a bit about LFR, eventually you are going to hear that LFR isn't about the loot and isn't intended as a way to gear people, it was created so that everyone who plays wow can see raiding content, not just the people who have time to dump into gearing and finding groups good enough to clear raids.

We are going to throw Dragon Soul out the window, because by the time it was 6 nerfs in, LFR may have been a little more complex, and it certainly required a higher ilevel to get in. Ahem, anyhow, before that, loot was blizzards way of gating content. If you wanted to finish the normal version of a raid, you better have run heroic dungeons. If you wanted to work on heroic raids, you needed the gear from clearing the normal mode. In addition to that gating, if people weren't moving fast enough in blizzards eyes, blizzard would give you a boost by nerfing content. Don't get me started on raids that would just wait to even try until the next nerf happened. Grrrr.

So, here comes LFR and it changes the gating process. I'm no fool. I hit 90 yesterday and grabbed the sha boots. I had some crafted gear in my bags (not equipped so I can sell it when I'd done), and 4k justice points. I justice geared and hung out by the vendor. I ran two heroics, refunded the Justice gear that I replaced and spent those points again rather than spend any gold and queued into LFR. Luck was on my side. I'm going to do the same thing again today and if I have luck with the first two sections, I may be able to finish it out without spending any more gold. That character is a broken good class right now, but I'm not getting carried. On my worst fights I'm pulling my own weight, and at my best I hit 2nd on the meters, with a 90 two hours old.

Long story short, by using LFR I have a spot for that character in a raid this week, without having to see any of the content that was supposed to gate my way into raiding. LFR was not designed for raiders but it is quickest way to get the best gear- with set bonuses it is superior to running regulars. The thing that is supposed to be a way for people to see extra content has become the way to skip content or spend less time on normal content. I think the OP was asking if removing gear from LFR or nerfing the quality of gear would fix this problem - if it really is a problem.

I like the LFR route because it makes gearing quicker for me and quicker for my friends. I dislike that often new players from the LFR era seem to see joining a non- LFR raid as filling a spot to get to loot land, rather than being someone who works to bring more to the raid (even a reading the raid journal would be nice once in awhile). Gear used to be an indicator of how much time someone put in to a character and how much experience they had. Now? Unless you know the person personally, it is just a guess - which I guess doesn't matter much - people are more replaceable.

/end wall of text

[TheWindWalker]

yet again. I vehemently dissagree with the statement that it serves no purpose without loot. I ran lfr will of the emperor a number of times prepatory to my guild downing elegon JUST SO THAT I COULD LEARN THE DANCE MECHANIC.

Then enjoy your hours in queue waiting for the handful of other people who want to run a gimped version of the same bosses for nothing more than "the experience."

[Lochton]

FOR SAKE OF THE DISCUSSION:

I care because in some ways LFR is providing very poor begining raiders with the benefits of gear that can include tier set bonuses , with the illusion that they are really raiding, and NOT preparing them whatsoever for the real thing.

I recently had a player from another guild claim that they completed Dragonsoul...................

wait for it...........


wait for it...........

on LFR difficulty and therefore completed the expansion!

Well, then you didn't scout out that person correctly, but you need to keep open for other players to evolve. And well, maybe he/she/it felt like the content has been completed for he/she/it. Even a PvP can tell a Heroic raider that he didn't complete the content as he hasn't done enough PvP (still content).

But gear is helping you to build a chance, no matter what people think. Most guilds would rather have an LFR geared person on trial for raids than a rare geared. You cannot deny the progress needs "stairs", LFR is another step on the stair, just like normal is.

---------- Post added 2012-12-11 at 08:09 PM ----------

yes. I absolutley would. done is done. the last boss, on the hardest difficulty is completion.

But, that's wrong too. Still alot of content. Factions, Player Versus Player and achievements - heck, even lore as well as roleplay.

[Hodenkrieg]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7384358599

^^^^^^^^^^
while thread meant to be humorous, it shows what the REAL problem is with LFR.

[Stede]

If loot in LFR would be removed. What do you think the communitys reaction would be?

Raid finder is there to let people who don't have the time to see raids, but in some peoples eyes it should not drop loot. I think we can all say safely 95% of the people who run LFR do it for the gear and don't give a rats ass about seeing the content itself.

If loot was removed, and Blizzards statement would be "It's there to let you see content, not use as a loot pinata"

What would be the communitys reaction?
Discuss.

People wouldn't run it. Because saying it's only there for folks to see the content is a lie. If it were only that, we wouldn't have T14-lite gear. LFR is fully intended to offer an additional gear progression path for everyone. Anyone who tells you different is full of crap.

[Hodenkrieg]

But, that's wrong too. Still alot of content. Factions, Player Versus Player and achievements - heck, even lore as well as roleplay.

Kind of what I was getting at too.

what dictates a "completed expansion" is relatively subjective. What one person may find to be "completed" can be completely irrelevant to another.

[RocketArmz]

I'm new and I'm going to get flamed for this I'm sure, but I run LFR because I'm deaf. I don't get to hop on vent and run around while people yell at each other about staying in the fire. So there's a penalty for players like me in the highest of raiding, but the penalty for my deafness is blunted by gimped boss mechanics (these mechanics are tuned for groups who can freely communicate--- most often verbally, because nobody can type that fast and mash ability buttons).

So yeah I get some gear for my toons that I otherwise wouldn't get because no "hardcore" raid group would let a deaf player into the raid since I can't hop on vent. Well I can hop on vent, but I can't hear ya anyways.

I've made some friends through wow that have other types of disabilities and it's a nice retreat from some of the crap we deal with everyday in real life (I'm sure many players of all abilities can relate to this). So go ahead and flame away and tell me that I'm not as good as of a player because at the end of the day no matter how loud you're yelling at me... I can't hear ya.

[Cirque]

How about we expand the experiment and remove loot from all three and see how many hardcores stick around. After all they're in it for the challenge and not the loot.

Loot is a necessity for the challenge, myself and tons of others from my guild would stick around (we raid heroic, obviously).

It just makes the game less interesting because there's less character development, and in time I can imagine this will bore people.

[Kantoro]

How funny that every post the OP makes makes it more and more apparent that he is just too cool for everyone else. I bet the girls love when you tell them you have aced heroic DS. Stop caring what other people have done or are doing. Because I assure you, they don't care about your 496 and 504 gear. In short, take a piece of advice, it is none of your business. Words to live by.